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Topic: The ring of fire

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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Date: Oct 13, 2006
The ring of fire

Whilst the hobbits are on the side of mount doom, and just after gollum has attacked frodo,


"...a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire, there spoke a voice. 'Begone, and truble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"


now, is it the Ring speeking through frodo, or is it frodo speeking independantly with the Ring's help? possibly.



-- Edited by jammi567 at 11:06, 2006-10-14

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Oct 14, 2006
Did the Ring speak on Mount Doom?
I think it did. It all comes from two paragraphs.

"Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"

Anyway, clearly in the vision Frodo was the figure robed in white, and Gollum was the crouching shape. And considering that the wheel of fire is clearly the ring, I guess it is the one that speaks in that moment.
(Frodo himself said that he saw the ring as a wheel of fire before turning away from the Orc-road.
"I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it with my waking eyes, and all else fails.")

Maybe Sam was delirious after crossing the plain of Gorgoroth and all of Mordor. The description does fit well with his ideas of Gollum and Frodo. But I do not think he had gone long enough without food and water to be that far out of his mind, and let us not forget it was not the first time that happened, as mentioned here as well, he had already had a similar vision in Emyn Muil, long beofre the lack of food and water started to affect him.

A rather simple answer to whether or not the Ring spoke is no, of course not, inanimate objects don't run around talking to people. But the Ring speaking on Mount Doom is not the only time it has happened.

At Cabed-en-Aras in the First Age Gurthang, the sword of Turin Turambar and Beleg Cuthalion before him spoke aloud.
"And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly."
If an elvish sword can speak, can not a ring containing the greater part of the power of Sauron? I believe yes.


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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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The Might wrote:
(Frodo himself said that he saw the ring as a wheel of fire before turning away from the Orc-road.
"I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it with my waking eyes, and all else fails.")


But wasn't that instance about there being nothing from the eye of sauron (whether metaphorically or literly). 



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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no
he was talking about the Ring there
the Eye of Sauron is only refered to as The Evil Eye, The Eye of Barad-dűr, The Eye of Mordor, The Great Eye, The Lidless Eye, The Red Eye, never called The Wheel of Fire

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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ohhhh, ok. my mistake.

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Valar
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Date: Oct 15, 2006

Indeed as TM says it is the Ring that is being referred to as the 'wheel of fire.'


The well-respected and well known Tolkien Scholar Tom Shippey suggests that in order for the Ring to get complete control over Frodo it actually had to lead Frodo to Mount Doom.  I agree with him on this matter.


Tolkien tells us in Letter 246 that in that one moment when the bearer is at the Cracks and can destroy the Ring is when the Ring is at it's strongest:


I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist.


In order for the Ring to gain complete control over Frodo, it actually had to get Frodo to the Cracks of Doom.  Before Frodo enters into the Sammath Naur, we see the Ring's strong influence over Frodo growing even stronger:


”No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of fire. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes, and all else fades.”~Mount Doom


Frodo has basically lost any sort of memory, it's only him and the Ring.  Frodo has no identity, he's 'naked in the dark' with the the wheel of fire (I think that's the quote you were referring to in your last post TM?) 


Names are a very important thing, it defines who you are, it defines your identity.  Indeed the real names of the Ents were actually stories about their events in life.  To lost one's name, or to forget one's name is a sign that you have no identity and are controlled by some other power.  (Examples: the Nazgul who were not named, and the Mouth of Sauron who had forgotten his name...both were complete slaves to Sauron).  Here we just get to see the grasp the Ring had on Frodo at this point, soon before he enters into the Sammath Naur.


And as TM argues (along with Professor Shippey) it is the Ring that speaks these words...'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'


At first it seems rather strange as to why the Ring would say this...but taking into consideration the strong amount of control over Frodo the Ring had already...and also if it wanted to get complete control over Frodo, the best place would actually be the Cracks of Doom where the Ring's power is at it's greatest influence.



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
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briliant post, by the way. when you say it like that, it does make sense. So, this being the case, how would the Ring have spoken those words, so that even sam could here them?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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the point is only Sam heard it
we don't know if Gollum or Frodo heard the Ring speaking to Sam
considering that he had a vision, so he lost contact with reality, the message might have been sent not by using spoken words, but telepathically in some way
anyway, at that time it is clear that Sam was the Ring's greatest threat...Frodo would soon be enslaved by it, and Gollum had been defeated, and seemed powerless at the moment.
anyway, it was in the Ring's beat interest to get rid of Sam, because he was still capable of ruining the Ring's plans.
however, considering the words appeared in a vision to him, where the real world had been changed with Sam's own view of things (Frodo robed in white and Gollum the small, crawling creature), we can not be sure of exactly how the Ring was able to achieve this

PS: I believe Professor Shippey is correct on this one.

-- Edited by The Might at 11:13, 2006-10-15

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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what is there in the text to support the fact that the ring was onlt speaking to sam?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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the fact that it was HIS vision, and that he had lost contact with reality
he was not hearing this in the real world, he was having a vision influenced by his own mind and with the subliminal message received from the ring
I have however already said this in my previous post, so without any wish for offence, please read my posts more carefully

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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Without being rude, i had already read your post, and in it, you said:  


"we don't know if Gollum or Frodo heard the Ring speaking to Sam"


therefore, it could've been all three of them that heard it. And i asked what, from the text, supported that only sam heard it. This you answered in you latest post.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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sorry for not making myself clear in that matter
it could of course be that Frodo and Gollum had such visions as well, seeing the Ring speak to Sam, but no information exists
however, since Frodo wrote the LOTR I guess he would have mentioned having a vision similar to that that Sam had if he had had one. But since no mention is made it could mean that he either forgot about it due to the state he had been in on Moun Doom, or that such a vision never occured.
I personally doubt he or Gollum heard anything, the Ring addressed the person it wanted to stay away from it.

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Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
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i always thought i was gollum it was speaking to, because of what happens shortly afterwards.

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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With what Lord Lorien states, I think that the power of the Ring was growing incredibly strong at that point and since it had been with Frodo for so long perhaps Frodo's possessiveness gave him a spurt of great anger at the audacity behind Gollums attack. Sam witnessed Frodo's lordly demeanor when dealing with the insurrection.  In earlier chapters Frodo speaks in domineering posture to Gollum understanding the effect the threat of the Ring would have on the creature.

It seems that Frodo had spoken for the Ring on these occasions:

When he lead Gollum from the Forbidden Pool stating:

"There is no time," said Frodo. "Bring fish with you. Come!"
"No! Must finish fish."
"Smeagol!" said Frodo desperately. "Precious will be angry. I shall take Precious, and I shall say:
make him swallow the bones and choke. Never taste fish again. Come, Precious is waiting!"
Then Gollum came crawling like an erring dog called to heel.

When Frodo made Gollum promise not to escape he and Sam in the Taming of Smeagol:

"All you wish is to see it and touch it, if you can, though you know it would drive you mad. Not on it. Swear by it, if you will. For you know where it is. Yes, you know, Smeagol. It is before you." For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown and Gollum had shrunk: a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud, and at his feet a little whining dog. Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds. Gollum raised himself and began pawing at Frodo, fawning at his knees.

And of course the last time on the slopes of Mount Doom. But just before the Wheel of Fire scenario Frodo speaks with commanding authority saying:

"Down, down!" he gasped, clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. "Down, you creeping thing, and out of my path! Your time is at an end. You cannot betray me or slay me now."

Ultimately, I believe Frodo's greed for the Ring grants him this huge change and Sam perceives his ferocity as: a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. I think that was definitely Sam's perception of the act playing out. Poetic in delivery but possibly not actual.



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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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It does seem as though the Ring bestowed some false sense of authority onto Frodo Jaid, as the quotes you provide show. I believe there are also instances of Frodo ordering Sam around in a rather domineering fashion or am I thinking of the films?

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You want it for Yourself!
Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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I've been looking Bilbo, (through the books) but the only instance I found was when (in the film) Frodo kinda gives Sam a rash in the scene when Gollum puts the crumbssesess of Lembas on Sam's nasty little jackesses, accusing him of devouring the provisions, dooming them all to starvation. I've searched that particular scene out in the book but have been unsuccessful. That doesn't mean I'm giving up on that ideal because; I'd like to dig a little more to see if Frodo's fight against the influence of the One Ring started earlier than I perceived. I will send word from the Archives of Minas Tirith...

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