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I think gollum should be pitied. He suffered for hundreds of years under the Rings corruption until hew became unrecognisable and wretched.

Still even though Gandalf said he did have a very small chance of redemption I can't see how he could have survived without the Ring becuase he would be over 500 years old.

but still...without Gollum ME would have probably been destroyed
it's funny how fate can be influenced by such small things

but still...without Gollum ME would have probably been destroyed
it's funny how fate can be influenced by such small things~TM

Excellent point, and Gollum plays a very important part not only as serving as a guide to Frodo, but in the whole fate of destroying the ring.  In Letter 192 Tolkien states that it is Eru who caused Gollum's fall destroying the Ring:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said).

So, it was by the grace of Eru, that the Ring did end up getting destroyed, he intervened.  But often this quote is taken out of context and you do not see the true meaning unless Letter 181 is quoted with it:

’But at this point the ’salvation’ of the world and Frodo’s  own ’salvation’ is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him , and could rob him in the end. To ’pity’ him, to forbear to  kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He [Gollum] did rob him and injure him in the end- but by a ’grace’ that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was  the most beneficial thing anyone could have done for frodo! By a situation created by his ’forgiveness’ , he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden

Pity and Mercy are big themes throughout the books, and it was Frodo's act of pity towards Gollum that Eru decided to intervene.  Frodo did not have the strength of will to destroy the ring (as we are told no one had that will power), but because of his previous act of pity towards Gollum, Eru decided that earned Frodo his salvation and he stepped in destroying the Ring, relieving Frodo of it. 

So, I think Gollum plays a very influential part in the destruction of the Ring.  Not just in the sense of leading and guiding the Hobbits to Mordor, but also as Tolkien says for the very sake of Frodo, Gollum plays a part.

-- Edited by Lord Lórien at 08:09, 2006-09-10

The Might wrote:

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very good second quote, I didn't know it, so thank you for help9ing me learn something new about ME...

and indeed, all you said does make sense in my mind as well

now, I don't want to start a big discussion, but I think you can think of it as karma

if you do good and are merciful, Eru will help you, if you're bad like Saruman or Sauron you won't end up good

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That's a fine premise to carry out your life, but in this day and age, that is frequently not the case. So, I think it important that these stories bear witness to the effects of good and evil.

Actually I think a more proper tragic ending would involve Gollum biting the ring from Frodo's hand and then falling into the Crack of Doom, but then Frodo being too weak and exhausted to escape and Sam being forced to choose between staying with Frodo or saving his own life. In the end Frodo begs Sam to go on without him and Sam does so reluctantly so that someone can tell the tale, and Sam is forced to agonize over his decision.

Maybe the anguish is so terrible that he gets to go with Bilbo.

If G o l l u m is not the one to decide the ending but the physical circumstances, he does not have to be present at all. Nor alone if still present.

I did not state Sem's perishing as obligatory.

Some of the Valar might have had distant glimpses of the events having took place in Mount Doom. Thus the tale would have come to us via magnificent Vanyarin reports... at a lesser cost in inconsistency.

Gollum, is the lynch pin to the whole story (as much as it pains me to justify the nasty ****s existence)

I didn't think it was really a happy ending. Maybe not tragic, but definitely bittersweet. Frodo spent the rest of his days pained by what occurred, and didn't get a happy ending. He didn't get 50 more years of whole, peaceful life full of family and happiness like Sam did:

One evening Sam came into the study and found his master looking very strange. He was very pale and his eyes seemed to see things far away.
‘What’s the matter, Mr. Frodo?’ said Sam.
‘I am wounded,’ he answered, ‘wounded; it will never really heal.’
But then he got up, and the turn seemed to pass, and he was quite himself the next day. It was not until afterwards that Sam recalled that the date was October the sixth. Two years before on that day it was dark in the dell under Weathertop.

This is the reason he sails into the West at the end of the story, and I think that was the perfect ending. One of the reasons I love Tolkien the way I do is because he was sentimental and a romantic about a lot of things that most adults have given up on - love, friendship, happiness, and the belief in an afterlife. He seemed to enjoy happy endings more than heart-wrenching ones, but at the same time didn't let things occur without consequences.


-- Edited by The Secret Fire at 00:00, 2006-10-06

Yes I've read it, but I don't think I explained myself very well. The Silmarillion all in all was not an overly happy book, but it's not a novel akin to LoTR either. What you find in our own history books is usually inspiring, but rarely pleasant.

Tolkien also enjoyed martyrdom, as you might have noticed. I think that ties into that. Usually people who met unhappy ends either deserved it, or were doing it for whatever Greater Good had been established. I don't think the Gollum ending is inappropriate seeing as it serves as a little bit of both.

nope, Arwen just made a smart decision.
as we are told, Elves and even the Ainur will eventually come to envy Men for receiving the gift of death from Illuvatar.
indeed, for many it seemed she gave up something, but not to me.
is eternal life and eventually coming to envy those who die better then to die and go to illuvatar? I think not.

unfortunately I doubt anyone can answer that considering that none of us can picture himself what eternal life means.
Of course you can try but you will never succeed.