Arda to Earth - Tolkien Forums

Turinguy

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1

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Posts: 10

Date: Jan 11, 2017

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I know that in the fourth age the elves start to leave for valinor and the men take over. I pieced this together, please me if it sounds reasonable (It is out of my own mind.) The elves leave for valinor, the dwarves die out. Men build their empires. Blah, blah, blah until one of the orc-clans still hiding out in Mordor somehow bring back Morgoth, or Sauron, or something like that (Ungoliant?) and mess everything up. Civilization is completely wiped out. Men flee over Rhun, into the east, and beyond. Hobbits go into hiding. It makes sense: the humans that fled east into other continent become the Native Americans. Rhun and those lands become Asia. Harad and those lands becomes Africa. The north-west of Middle-e becomes - you guessed it - Europe. Belegar is the Antlantic, and part of it is the Meditranian. The Mordor-ish area would be the firtile cresent, where civilization would develop again. This is the fifth Age of Middle-earth. The gods god mest up - the Ainu became the Mesoppotamian, Greek, Egyptian, Norse, etc. Gods, while Eru Iluvatar became the Muslim, Jewish, Christian, etc. God. The Middle-Ages, the Renaissanc, or something like that would be the biggining of the Sixth age, the age we are in now. I have more than that, but that is the basic outlay of what I think might have happened. If you have any questions or disagreements, I would like to read and reply, so please do so in the comments/replies. __________________ All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.

John Wain

Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3

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Posts: 121

Date: May 26, 2017

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Well, well, this topic could have elicited a heated discussion a few years back. I am only too sorry that it has seen none so far, but I'll try my hand at an answer.

Where to even begin? The possibilities concerning Arda's evolution are virtually endless, and Tolkien did say that the ages have 'quickened' and that we now live during the end of the Sixth or the beginning of the Seventh Age, although he did not explain what events led to the conclusion of previous ages, so we can only speculate on his reasoning.

Your attempt to fit recorded history with Tolkien's mythology is admirable, but somewhat far-fetched. Actually I think that it is not possible to do so at all, because we have too much evidence about Earth's geology and natural history that simply deny any form of 'supernatural' creation or shaping of the world.

Even if we assume that the great cataclysm brought about by Eru at the end of the Second Age created those lands now known as the Americas and Australia (and other Pacific Islands), we still have major differences between the fictitious Endor (comprising Middle-earth) and Eurasia+Africa, which cannot simply be swept away. Whole mountain ranges, bodies of water, rivers and the very area of the landmasses are wrong.

Obviously what you propose has a nice ring to it, especially the Valar+Maiar being 'messed up' in the minds of humans, and being revered in the polytheistic pantheons (Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greek, etc.), because after all that's what they are - gods of the elements. It is also conceivable that Eru became the monotheistic God (actually since Tolkien was a devout Catholic, Eru was God from the very beginning, not some sort of invented Demiurge).

However, I would personally dismiss the whole idea that Tolkien's world is Earth in a very distant past, and would not even try to sketch up the connections across the 'lost ages'. I know Tolkien was fond of this approach, and it works so long as you don't take it too seriously and you only look at what he wrote as 'mythology' (because this is what he intended it to be). If you try to force the legendarium into the real world, it kind of breaks apart and loses credibility. And I love Tolkien's world too much to subject it to this kind of breaking apart...

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Ereinion

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1

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Date: May 26, 2017

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Yes, this is a fun topic. I even once estimated Gil-galad's current age presuming a couple of hundred year fourth age and a James Ussher chronology, which Tolkien probably would not have.

As you say, John, the geography is still quite different. As an Australian I do notice the land of an Australian landmass on the Tolkienian map. Of course, it may just be uncharted, but nevertheless I think a cataclysmic Dagor Dagorlad is necessary and a repopulation/ surviving population in a restored world by Eru. If we presume that all the forces of good and evil are unleashed in a final confrontation... I mean, the power unleashed would technically have to be greater than a nuclear holocaust... but only then could the world be battered and destroyed enough to be able to be shaped into something more like ours.

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John Wain

Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3

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Posts: 121

Date: May 30, 2017

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I have just posted here a reply detailing my objections concerning the size of Tolkien's world as compared to our own (with maps and images). The resemblance between Tolkien's map and a map of the Earth is striking, but just look of the size of that Africa-like continent (Harad and Far Harad). It is absolutely tiny.

I believe it would not be inconceivable to admit another intervention by Eru, one which would have both enlarged and changed Arda to Earth geographically, but personally I think we might go only so far with these Deus ex machina solutions (I also expressed my thoughts on this here). It would be better to firmly place Arda in our mythology rather than in our past.

-- Edited by John Wain on Tuesday 30th of May 2017 03:56:55 PM

-- Edited by John Wain on Tuesday 30th of May 2017 03:58:27 PM

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Turinguy

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1

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Posts: 10

Date: May 30, 2017

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I actually have to agree with you that my post makes next to no sense whatsoever. I just know he of thought of this and typed it randomly.

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All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost;

The old that is strong does not wither,

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.

John Wain

Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3

Status: Offline

Posts: 121

Date: May 31, 2017

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Turinguy, I would not dismiss your original thoughts so easily. Although I expressed a matter of personal preference when reading the legendarium, I do agree that Tolkien himself considered Middle-earth 'real'. A long time ago (coincidentally the post I'm linking to was made six years ago to the day) we had a rather long discussion about the chronology of events in Arda and how it could be linked to Earth's history.

If you read through this post of James the Just's, you'll see his proposed dates for the beginning of the following ages. Scroll up and down from there to discover more. I am only an enthusiast amateur astronomer, so his calculations are beyond me, but I incline to think they are accurate.

Now from there we might come back to what actually happened that caused the ages to end. Especially the fourth, which should probably be the one where we move from the fairy-like Middle-earth to the more mundane continents of today.

Here's the topic I was referring to.

-- Edited by John Wain on Wednesday 31st of May 2017 08:10:34 AM

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