Tolkien Top 100 Middle Earth's Top 100
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 

Topic: Why did Eru not help?

Post Info
Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 318
Date: May 16, 2006
Why did Eru not help?

Ok, my question is this:


Why did Eru not intervene at any point in history when something bad was happening in the world, i.e. Melkor's rebellion or Sauron's attempted domination of Middle Earth?


Surely Eru would not want these things to happen and I'm pretty sure he would have the power to do something about it as he had the power to create the Ainur, right?



__________________
"Ash nazg durbatulūk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulūk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 16, 2006
Eru was god and he did things indirectly, through the Valar.
he never directly intervened and would never intervene
just like the Valar chose not to intervene in the fate of ME after the end of the War of wrath, eru would also never directly intervene in the fate of ME.
this was his gift to the Valar, the world their music created and it was up to them to take care of it.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 16, 2006

Ahh. The simple answer to your question is He Did!


Eru is always present, always helping just in ways you do not know. If your talking about ways like when he made Numenor crash into the sea, then he does not intervene.


However when Frodo was in Mt doom and failed to destroy the Ring, it Was Eru that Made Gollum fall into the lava. It was Eru who made Bilbo find the Ring, It was Eru who sent Gandalf back from dying with the balrog.


He is always present and always helping, in ways few can notice. I will quote something tonight or tommorow for you Bauglir.



__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 16, 2006
mouthofsauron...that is a very difficult subject you are mentioning...
because the difference between Eru intervening and fate is very small...
I think I might post some quotes from the letters soon...

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 16, 2006
Ahh i have a quote in hand, and will post it tommorow morning. If you go onto the plaza you will see that Phil thinks the same as me.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 16, 2006
phil?
and no, I don't go on the plaza cause it makes me miss my old friends more...

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 16, 2006

Phil_d_one?


I go to the plaza as there are still some features you can use after your suspended. You can browse there members and email them if your logged in, you can view all the forums and possibly do the tests.



__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 16, 2006
well...don't go off and copy what phil says...though I doubt anyone would notice...
no, I know you wouldn't do that.
and actually I anyway agree with what you said
but he made all the things as I said, indirectly, not for all to see.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 16, 2006

Here is what I mean:


"Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought." (The Shadow of the Past, FotR)

"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said). See Vol. I p. 65." (Letter #192, Letters of Tolkien


It was Eru that made things happen - you just did not knwo it was him.



__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 16, 2006
*applauds*
good quotes...finally!!!
but...don't post blue...it is hard to see...I had to select the text to read...take something like red

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 16, 2006
Glad you like the quotes (no rebut?). I had to copy them from another site and at present this site has no feature to change the text colour so naught could be done.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Servants of Mordor - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 23
Date: May 16, 2006
that would be like saying, why do bad things happen and not good things all the time? If the bad didn't happen, then there would be no chance to grow or learn...to overcome the obsticles. Eru didn't make puppets...men, elves, and other races had free choice....

__________________
Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 318
Date: May 16, 2006

Your post have been helpful to clear things up for me TM and mouthofsauron111 so thanks, but going back to mouthofsauron111's first post and the examples of Eru intervening indirectly, I understand about Eru sending Gandalf back to finish his task, but how do you know that it was Eru who made Bilbo find the ring, and Eru who made Gollum fall into Mnt Doom. Does it say somewhere? These things could have just been coincidences couldn't they?



__________________
"Ash nazg durbatulūk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulūk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: May 16, 2006

"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said). See Vol. I p. 65." (Letter #192, Letters of Tolkien)


It answers it here Bauglir. Eru made Gollum fall into the Fire, he made the Rings destruction when frodo could go no further.



__________________

Utślie'n  aurė!  Aiya  Eldaliė  ar  Atanatįri,  utślie'n  aurė! 
Auta  i  lómė! 
Aurė entuluva!

Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
Status: Offline
Posts: 318
Date: May 16, 2006
Thanks Glorfindel1235. I guess that pretty much answers my question completely then.

__________________
"Ash nazg durbatulūk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulūk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul"
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: May 16, 2006
Unless anyone rebuts...

__________________

Utślie'n  aurė!  Aiya  Eldaliė  ar  Atanatįri,  utślie'n  aurė! 
Auta  i  lómė! 
Aurė entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 17, 2006
as I already said
read previous posts
if you would have looked a little higher glorfindel you would have seen that mouthofsauron already posted the same quote.

except that I do agree with the quote.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 17, 2006
It appears that Bauglir only read some of the post becuase he asked the same question again after I gave the quotes, therefore Glorfindel was just duplicating the quote so he could see.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 17, 2006
hehe...looks like that.
anyway...I think this is one discussion that won't start some big arguement...


__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 17, 2006
There is a significant difference between debate and argument...

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: May 17, 2006
well anyway there is not much to debate either as Tolkien clearly states his position on that matter and if he directly says something there is no way you can prove him wrong.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Jun 10, 2006
Unlike Balrogs vocal sounds though eh?

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Date: Sep 28, 2009
 In answer to the Eru question (in a sense). Did God obliterate the Devil?

__________________
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2960
Date: Sep 29, 2009
Glamdring.
Welcome to the Forums!
Your opinions will be most welcome here,
and, there are plenty of folks who will look
for your new perspective.
Anything you need please feel free to private
message me or ask anyone on the thread.
Again welcome,
Nice to meet you,
Bear an Elf-Friend



__________________

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Date: Sep 29, 2009
Hey Glamdring

I love this type of question..but yours ....no

Eru created Melkor. It vvasn't by mistake.

Melkor vvas all just part of the plan.

So there you have it...Eru has a plan...it seems to be good.

Have faith in Eru.  

__________________
Love Light and Peace
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Sep 30, 2009
Glamdring wrote:
In answer to the Eru question (in a sense). Did God obliterate the Devil?
I think the question should be rather: 'Could God obliterate the Devil?' To which the answer would be - yes. Then why doesn't he? I don't know much about the Bible, but I would say that God created the Devil for a purpose, and something Good will develop from the Evil of the Devil in one capacity or another, a Good which might never have come about without the Devil otherwise.

This discussion is sounding familiar!

Welcome to the forums by the way.

 



__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 4
Date: Oct 3, 2012

What about the promise that Frodo made Smeagol swear on the ring?  Didn't he warn him that if he took the ring he might be caused to throw himself into the fire?  I always thought that it was this promise that caused Gollum to fall into the fire.  This, of course, doesn't change the argument that Eru was moving things, but perhaps other things.



__________________

Speak, friend

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2960
Date: Oct 3, 2012

"Then Ilśvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilśvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
(The Silmarillion, Ainulindale: "The Music of the Ainur", pg 17)



__________________

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 812
Date: Oct 4, 2012
My question has always been, not so much about why Eru didn't help, but why didn't the elves (or any other race) acknowledge him? There are plenty of songs about the Valar, but I don't remember anyone calling on Eru.



__________________
Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 753
Date: Oct 4, 2012
I think its all a matter of the perspective of the Elves.

In Valinor they only knew of Manwe sitting upon his throne upon Taniquietel and from what I remember, he rarely came down to mingle with the rest of the Valar.

The Elves that made the journey to Valinor walked among the Valar and probably knew Manwe as God, even if it was explained to them that Manwe was a herald of Eru. The only other examples of Valar/Elf interaction was anytime Thorondor swooped in to speak with the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was a herald of Manwe.

Its easy enough to think that the Elves thought Manwe as top of the chain, He most like in thought to Eru. When Men came they learned what they could from the Elves and Presto! Dogma!

__________________
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2960
Date: Oct 4, 2012

Jaidoprism7,

I love this line; "When Men came they learned what they could from the Elves and Presto! Dogma!"

Did you mean this world or Tolkien's world?   ...  because  "... Presto! Dogma!" is what we get lots of times when we are looking for "numinious" truth.

Anytime we transpose the real world on Tolkien or vice versa there is always a cloud of myth ... but also a chance to look for answers inside ourselves.

 

Why did Eru not help?
He did help ... in many ways ... from the Music of the Ainur and beyond ... the first and second children ... changing the world to round ...
What we see as his non-involvement is our own ignorance of how the divine work ...

A very interesting series of posts.



__________________

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 812
Date: Oct 5, 2012

I guess I can't see that Eru didn't help. The quote Bear provided, and other examples during his song, to me says he helped a great deal. All things will be worked for his ends even though they aren;t seen by everyone. As Gandalf says:

"Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring maker."

Eru's design perhaps. I guess we'd call it Providence in this world. And, of course, people interpret Providence to mean different things.



__________________
Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 753
Date: Oct 5, 2012

My favorite quotable quote, pertaining to Providence is:


"If you do things right, people won't be sure if your doing anything at all!" ----celestial body in Futurama, (presumably God).

I abuse that quote, I admit. But it does make a point about Illuvatar's place in the whole scheme of things. All things in Tolkien's world were created by Eru. As God says in the Christian verses: "I AM". So does Eru by what he says to Melkor in the making of the music of Creation, I suppose.

Can anyone out there think of God in any other line of thought besides the Architect and designer of timelines and elements? (By the by; I consider that every nationality has a God, if not multiples in some cases.  I just don't mean to offend).

    Personally I would find it difficult to write him/her in any other way, because it speaks of balance. When it comes to good and evil at their beginnings, I find that they are always on the precipice of choice.

Forgive me. I am getting off track.
I think Eru knew all things were going to happen... and when.

Remember in the Silmarillion? I think it was when the Elves decided to leave the Blessed Realm and follow Feanor...
At one point Manwe conferred (or prayed) for Eru's guidance, and he came back and pronounced His doom, because he was of like mind closest to Illuvatar's. He was the only being on Arda who could do so. Maybe at that point he got a clear directive as to what Illuvatar wanted done. I don't have my books with me now but Tolkien put Manwe's decisions poetically, which was a nice touch, if you ask this humble yayhooo!



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Friday 5th of October 2012 06:09:08 AM

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date: May 28th
My opinion is that when the Music of the Ainur was finished, in spite of Melkor wreaking discords, they unintentionally created what would become Middle Earth and shaped all the events that would occur - every trial, every happiness, every sorrow. Perhaps the fate of the Ring was woven into it, and it wasn't exactly Eru who helped, it was the Valar.

Ian McKellen in an interview stated that LotR was a tale without any divine intervention, that it was up to each person to decide what they were going to do with their time, as Gandalf said. Gollum's obsession with the Ring drove him into Mt Doom, even Frodo barely made it out. Perhaps it's both, perhaps it's equal parts destiny and free will.

__________________

All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost

The old that is strong does not wither

Deep roots are not touched by the frost.

 

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring:

Renewed shall be blade that was broken

The crownless again shall be king.

Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Date: May 30th

Eru did intervene in the unfolding of Arda's history, either directly (such as when he sunk Numenor and rounded the world) and indirectly. The quotes provided by MoS above point to this very clearly. Obviously we might call these interventions 'coincidence' or 'Providence', which in Tolkien's mind (he was a practicing Catholic), means 'God's intervention'.

Obviously Eru acts in the Legendarium much as God acts in our world (note that I am an atheist and do not think there is any God at all, but when discussing Tolkien, we must use his frame of mind): i.e., very discreetly. If Eru intervened directly, two things would not have been right: firstly and most importantly, the Deux-ex machina resolution to problems that make up the novel. How would it all be if Iluvatar suddenly made the Ring disappear, recalled Sauron to the Timeless Halls and turned all the Orcs into pretty maidens offering flowers to the heavily outnumbered armies of the West? Clearly the whole climax of the novel would have become a bad joke that the readers could never appreciate. Secondly, because Eru is God and that's not how God does things. Tolkien had to stay true to this.

---

Star, you quoted Ian McKellen and I felt (without consulting any work) that his statement is amiss. Then I looked the matter up in Tolkien's Letters and here's what I found in the author's own words:

"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." (Letter 142, 2 Dec 1953)

I am not sure and I have no context for this assumption, but I believe McKellen is mixing up the film with the book (unpardonable mistake when one thinks he is entitled to an opinion without knowing the fundamentals, especially when one is a reputable actor who's listened to by millions)...



__________________
 
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Chatbox

Please log in to join the chat!

Previous poll results (What is the 'Mightiest' weapon in Tolkiens myth?): Gurthang, blade of Turin - 28%, Narsil, sword of Elendil - 12%, Anduril, Sword of King Ellesar Aragorn - 23%, The Mace of the Witch King - 5%, Grond the dread hammer/hammer of the underworld -19%, Black axe of Gothmog - 4, Glamdring of Gandalf - 7%, Orcrist of Thorin - 1% A NEW POLL HAS BEEN ADDED TO TOLKIEN FORUMS Tolkien Forums - The Mythical world of J.R.R Tolkien