Tolkien Forums

'I am not sure, Galin, if I really understood your statement. They indeed sing in Sindarin; in The Road Goes Ever On it is said, 'The language is Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves'. Looks to me like 'High Elves' are contrasted to Sindar here.'

Yes, in RGEO Tolkien is using 'High Elves' to refer to the Noldor. My reference was to Appendix B, where High Elves seems to include the Sindar.

'But was it only the name of Elbereth, and not by any means the peculiarities of the language, that made Frodo conclude he and his company were seeing High Elves?'

I think that's the suggestion, yes, as Frodo says: 'These are High-Elves! They spoke the name of Elbereth!'

'And by the Sindarin name of Elbereth alone it was not possible to tell Sindar from Noldor apparently.'

I think the original intention was that the form Elbereth distinguished 'High Elves' [as in Noldor] from the Ilkorin Elves of Middle-earth.

At the time Tolkien wrote this identification, it seems [unless I've missed something here] possible that Elbereth was the Noldorin name for Varda, thus the name was the indentifying factor, and there might have been another form in Ilkorin. In any case, at the time Tolkien wrote this statement there was no Sindarin, and the High Elves of Middle-earth, or Noldor, spoke Noldorin. Christopher Tolkien notes (stem BARATH-)

'The application of the name Elbereth to Varda seems to have arisen in the hymn of the Elves to the Goddess in the original second chapter (Three is Company) of The Lord of the Rings, written in early 1938 (...). Concomitant with this the Ilkorin names Elbereth (of different meaning) and Elboron were removed from the original entries BER and BOR. These were the names of Dior's sons in...'

We had Quenya Elentari, Varda -- Noldorin Elbereth -- Telerin Baradis (and Ilkorin Elbereth, where bereth meant 'valor', was struck out). Of course, by the end of The Lord of the Rings Tolkien had changed the languages and their histories, so that Sindarin arises and both the Exiles and the Sindar speak Grey-elven.

Perhaps Frodo could be informed by Elbereth because the Elves of Mirkwood (for example from Bilbo's tales) might not use 'Elbereth' specifically. I was somewhat satisfied with this until I remembered Frodo's general reference here to the numbers of High Elves -- and this becomes a bit 'problematic' if he 'really' meant High Elves as in Eldar [Noldor and Sindar], before he was informed that they were Noldor in any event.

'Yet maybe the very fact that the Valie's name was mentioned at all told Frodo that the Elves were Exiles? Why would Sindar (or others) even talk of her?'

I couldn't find (yet?) anything actually attested that the Noldor were so notable in their reverence for Varda that the use of this name (as Frodo heard it) would be a revelation of High Elven [as in Noldor] status.

And in note 21 to The Shibboleth of Feanor (thus relatively late if not published by JRRT himself), it's noted that the Sindar were instructed by Orome concerning the eminence of Manwe and Varda, and the Sindar called them Aran Einior and Elbereth, which names were adopted by the Noldor.

Well, I think those lines could be interpreted to fall in line with Exiled Noldor, probably more easily with the Exiles too, but not necessarily with respect to certainty; and to me the clear implication to the reader is that the name Elbereth is what informed Frodo.

One wonders if Tolkien just forgot to change this, or if he decided that High-Elves could mean Eldar here, and that 'not many' could be true enough compared to the Silvan Elves and the Avari [in The Lord of the Rings the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were not Eldar, thus not High Elves). We know that 'some' High Elves remained after Elrond sailed, but some and many are nice and vague.

It works well enough for me to compare the Eldar to the Non-Eldarin Elves, with respect to not many; but again if we see Frodo's comparative amazement to other Elves wandering in the Shire, and we know there were High Elves in Lindon according to Appendix A, and we take High Elves to refer to the Eldar, we must think Green Elves or something... not impossible again, but not exactly noted anywhere in The Lord of the Rings itself. 

It's interesting that Tolkien also retains Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod too, after yet another revision. 'Inglorion', although it could mean different things, most likely means 'son, descendant of' Inglor.

And when this was written Finrod was Finarfin really, and Inglor Felagund was Finrod!

There are big gaps in the Appendices of LOTR but we can start with what is actually confirmed within those Appendices (I have an inclination to support LOTR's appendices as law when it comes to these types of speculations).
There are also the accounts recorded in Unfinished Tales, so to make up a "extended edition" of the appendices I will compile what dates we have using LOTR's appendices and the notes of Unfinished Tales to narrow the gaps in time concerning the Hunt for the Ring/Gollum and Gandalf/Aragorn's whereabouts on ME at certain intervals:

THIRD AGE....

3009- Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron. Elrond sends for Arwen, and she returns to Imladris; the Mountains and all lands eastward are becoming dangerous. (LOTR)

(Late January- early February) 3017- Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood. Gandalf visits Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildur. (LOTR)

March 21st 3017- Aragorn arrives in Northern Mirkwood with Gollum...."The whole journey, on foot, was not much short of nine hundred miles, and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in fifty days, reaching Thraduil on the twenty-first of March."--Author's note (UT)

March 23rd 3017- Gandalf arrives in Mirkwood to question Gollum (UT) note 6)
March 29th 3017- Gandalf departs from Mirkwood (UT) note 6)
April 12th 3018- Gandalf arrives in Hobbiton (LOTR)
"after a journey of 800 miles"--(UT)
Note: It takes Boromir 3 months to make the 110 day journey from Minas Tirith (July 4th) to Rivendell (October 24th -25th) believe it or not; that journey is also around 800 miles. Although Boromir did it on flat land and not in any particular haste. Gandalf had to deal with the "High Pass" which would have taken a considerable amount of time (keep in mind this is done without Shadofax). Then as soon as he passed Rivendell the ride would have been much faster. In other words: there is no way Gandalf could have made the Journey from Mirkwood to The Shire in 14 or so days!!!! So yes...to confirm the timetable:

March 29th 3017-Gandalf leaves Mirkwood (UT)
April 12th 3018- Gandalf reaches Hobbiton (LOTR)
Gandalf had these things to slow him down: Mirkwood to the Carrock on foot (where he acquires a horse), The High Pass, and Stopping in Rivendell (fresh horse).

I used the official Map that came with my copy of LOTR 50th anniversary edition, to scale the distances.  If anyone could come up with a day to day travel pacing for Boromir that would be great. I say Boromir because his journey was on flat ground, using roads on horseback which is the most consistent pace considering what Aragorn and Gandalf had to deal with.  Meanwhile, I will be trying to calculate the pace myself....keep in mind, however that no one drives a horse at a full gallop for more than a few miles at a time.  The pace would most likely be an even trot (10mph) or so.  A gallop is about 25-30mph

Here may be a hint Laurelin ...

  "Little of all this, of course, reached the ears of ordinary hobbits. But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales; and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things. The conversation in The Green Dragon at Bywater, one evening in the spring of Frodo's fiftieth year, showed that even in the comfortable heart of the Shire rumours had been heard, though most hobbits still laughed at them.
  Sam Gamgee was sitting in one corner near the fire, and opposite him was Ted Sandyman, the miller's son; and there were various other rustic hobbits listening to their talk.
  'Queer things you do hear these days, to be sure,' said Sam.
  'Ah,' said Ted, 'you do, if you listen. But I can hear fireside-tales and children's stories at home, if I want to.'
  'No doubt you can,' retorted Sam, 'and I daresay there's more truth in some of them than you reckon. Who invented the stories anyway? Take dragons now.'
  'No thank'ee,' said Ted, 'I won't. I heard tell of them when I was a youngster, but there's no call to believe in them now. There's only one Dragon in Bywater, and that's Green,' he said, getting a general laugh.
  'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'
  'Who's they?'
  'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He saw one.'
  'Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal's always saying he's seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain't there.'
  'But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking - walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.'
  'Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not.'
  'But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors.'
   'Then Hal can't have seen one,' said Ted. There was some laughing and clapping: the audience seemed to think that Ted had scored a point.
  'All the same,' said Sam, 'you can't deny that others besides our Halfast have seen queer folk crossing the Shire - crossing it, mind you: there are more that are turned back at the borders."
(The Lord Of The Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter II ~ "The Shadow of the Past", pgs 44-45)

Maybe it was Ents or Ent-Wives on the North Moor?

I also found a an interesting read in an entry in the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, Scholarship and Critical Assessment,(Michael D.C. Drout editor)  titled "Ents" by Matthew Dickerson. Not only does he reference what appears in Appendix F in "The Return of The King" but also adds Yavanna's plea for tree guardians in the Silmarillion.
One really interesting reveal in this article points out in Tolkien's early concepts for "The Lord Of The Rings" the Giant Treebeard was the hostile being responsible for Gandalf's imprisonment and his later connection that Trolls were counterfeits made in mockery of Ents.
As to your specific question of "Does anyone know if Ents lived in other places in ME?" Dickerson writes;
"By the end of the Third Age, Ents survive only in Fangorn Forest, also called Entwood, a remnant at the edge of Rohan of the One Wood that once extended across all of Middle-earth ... As a result of their dwindling population and dwindling role, the Ents are largely forgotten (and unseen) in Middle-earth."

There are other interesting entries in the Encyclopedia by Dickerson focusing on Treebeard (Fangorn) himself, and Tolkien's use of Trees as mythic symbols and the specific symbolic significance attached to Ents and Trees. He includes reference to Tolkien's works on Germanic, Norse, and Scandinavian myth where such figures as Yggdrasil, the "World Ash" that is the pillar of the world in ancient Scandinavian mythology and reference to, (as late as the 19th century), "warden trees" that were venerated in areas of Germany and Scandinavia, considered to be guardians and bringers of luck, and offerings were sometimes made to them.

It seems that trees and their guardians are an important part of Tolkien's mythos and Ents existed wherever trees did in Arda at the beginning of the world

I hope this helps ... seems once upon a time Ents were everywhere.

Yes the injection of Ents into the Silmarillion hails in part from Christopher Tolkien, based upon a letter from JRR Tolkien of course. Note also Treebeard's song in The Lord of the Rings with respect to the place-names.

I don't think Hal saw an Ent or an Entwife in the Shire, unless he's got the size notably wrong. Ents are not nearly as tall as full grown Elm trees, nor their strides so long (Tolkien actually described the length of an ent-stride). Of course one can say these stories get exaggerated anyway, but to my mind 'trees' find their way into Sam's description due to the being in question being so tall...

... and then trees get comically wound into the conversation through Sam and Ted. I note that later on in the tale, the talk of 'giants' is mentioned, although admittedly even a fourteen foot ent would be a giant to a Man and a Hobbit. But again, Elm trees are much taller (50 to 100 feet). In any case, I'm not sure the reader can tell if the being in question was anything 'like' a tree outside of size, even if Tolkien would ultimately go on to invent Ents.

Externally  the conversation in the dragon was imagined well before Tolkien invented Ents and Entwives as we know them. Much closer to the intial writing of this conversation Tolkien imagined giants of some sort, and possibly a kind of giant that resembled a tree too; but I note that when the hostile 'giant Treebeard' was imagined early on, he was very much taller than an Ent.

Strangely (if I recall correctly) when Tolkien finally landed on the chapter when Ents first appeared Treebeard was imagined as 'only' ten feet tall! The earlier hostile Treebeard was absolutely huge however, as was his entire forest at one point.

Laurelin,
That idea that maybe Old Man Willow was a Huorn seems pretty solid. And certainly, at least at sometime, there were Ents in the Old Forest (and as this is a piece of speculative fun ...it can be said without being blasted that it couldn't be) Tom Bombadil as a tree shepherd, in my mind, seems a pretty good speculation. Maybe Tom kept contact with some of the Ents that had gone "sleepy". And we might speculate that getting Tom together with Treebeard might give some leads as to finding the Ent-wives ... just speculating of course ...

There was some really brilliant stuff in there said by Jaidoprism7 (chuckle)....

If it is supposed that some of the Entwives might have gone East then I would like to say:

Look for the New Fanfic of how Pallando (the blue wizard who was corrupted by Sauron), along with the help of Khamul and a Dark Numenorean Captain look to enslave the remaining Entwives, but to free them, a young Birch tree named Zeke will have to seek out the Secret Groves of the East and meet a wayward orchard of Apple trees and convince them to march to war against Pallando. Just before the epic battle Zeke's catch-phrase will be: "How do you like these apples!"  Although it takes a long time to say in Entish.....

COMING SOON.......

Ha ha...well done Bear!

The Entwives will Trojan Horse a huge Apple pie and a Case of Preserves and then they spring the trap!

Part of a "Braveheart" moment before the battle will be Zeke saying: "They think were all Bark, and maybe a few branches, but no bite! And just because we drip it, doesn't make us Saps."

LOL.....Ok...don't mean to distract too much from the original discussion...just couldn't resist....

Laurelin,
I like (or "dig") the idea that Entwives are making tomato baskets and are "hanging" out by the Havens. I'll bet that in their journey than came across Goldberry who showed them a trick or two about using river water.
I also like the idea that they may have had a hand in teaching hobbits (directly or indirectly) about loving their land and making it fruitful ... avoiding the industrialization that had polluted other lands.
The idea that the being with Ents was like being forced to live in a frat-house makes sense too. And another possibility may have been that Entwives resented having to speak the long drawn out language of Entish ... preferring Quenya or Sindarin ... so that sharing what their day was like didn't take all day everyday.
And as for having their own commune ... how else could they get to vote and receive an equal share of "Entish" stuff?
I like it. Its a sort of ecological radical feminism ... and their flight is a radical but not unheard of action to avoid being abused by their masculine counterparts as reproductive chattels.
What would be really interesting would be the Entwives conversation with Yavanna ... who begged to have them created to protect her creations from destruction ...
Maybe the Entwives could be represented by "Susan B. An-to-tree"?
Yup! These idea's are like sowing the seeds ... and reaping the harvest ... of puns (good and bad), satirical quotes, and creative metaphors (or "meta-fives") inspired by Tolkien's physical and metaphysical ecology ...
I wonder what Eru would say about all this?

Jaidoprism7,

Tolkien used Nordic and Germanic mythological themes through many of his works.
Especially he enjoyed the The Ring of the Nibelung,  four epic operas by the German composer  Wagner. The works are based on characters from the Norse sagas and the Nibelungenlied.

The scale and scope of the story is epic. It follows the struggles of gods, heroes, and several mythical creatures over the eponymous magic Ring that grants domination over the entire world. The drama and intrigue continue through three generations of protagonists, until the final cataclysm at the end.  More specifically the plot revolves around a magic ring that grants the power to rule the world, forged by the Nibelung dwarf Alberich from gold he stole from the Rhine maidens in the river Rhine. With the assistance of the god Loge, Wotan  (the chief of the gods) steals the ring from Alberich, but is forced to hand it over to the giants, Fafner and Fasolt in payment for building the home of the gods, Valhalla, or they will take Freia, who provides the gods with the golden apples that keep them young. Wotan's schemes to regain the ring, spanning generations, drive much of the action in the story. His grandson, the mortal Siegfried, wins the ring by slaying Fafner (who slew Fasolt for the ring) ... as Wotan intended ... but is eventually betrayed and slain as a result of the intrigues of Alberich's son Hagen, who wants the ring. Finally, the Valkyrie Brünnhilde ... Siegfried's lover and Wotan's daughter who lost her immortality for defying her father in an attempt to save Siegfried's father Sigmund ... returns the ring to the Rhine maidens as she commits suicide on Siegfried's funeral pyre, Hagen is drowned as he attempts to recover the ring. In the process, the gods and Valhalla are destroyed. (Thank you to Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen)

So the integration of mythological and spiritual was a venue Tolkien was familiar with.  As an academic he would also have been exposed to the archetypal classifications of C.G. Jung ... so warriors, wizards, shieldmaidens, etc would be part of his rhetorical vocabulary.
And, coupled with his strong belief in the Catholic faith, antagonists and protagonists battling in the hidden world of the numinous it would not be far stretch to see a relic endowed with supernatural gifts ... such as invisibility or access to a spiritual/ultra-physical alternative dimension.

Here's a random question for speculation:

Where did Golum get his boat that he had in The Hobbit?