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Topic: Entwives in ME?

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Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
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Date: Jun 1, 2006
Entwives in ME?

I know that Tolkien never actually says what happened to the entwives but in the second chapter of the FotR Sam mentions something in a conversation to Ted Sandyman in the Green Dragon that could be evididence of their suvival:- 


- 'All right', said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'
- 'Who's *they*?'
- 'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He *saw* one.'
- 'Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal's always saying that he's seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain't there.'
- 'But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking -- walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.'
- 'Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw *was* an elm tree, as like as not.'
- 'But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors.'
- 'Then Hal can't have seen one', said Ted. - 
(FotR, Ch.2, p.43)



This evidence is strengthened by Treebeard's own words to Merry and Pippin:-

- 'He made them describe the Shire and its country over and over again. He said an odd thing at this point. 'You never see any, hm, any Ents round there, do you?' he asked. 'Well, not Ents, Entwives I should really say.'
- 'Entwives?' said Pippin. 'Are they like you at all?'
- 'Yes, hm, well no: I do not really know now', said Treebeard thoughtfully. 'But they would like your country, so I just wondered.' -
(TT, Ch.4, p.461)



It seems to me that that from this evidence, the entwives still existed and roamed around Middle Earth.


What are people's opinions on this?


 



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Well what happened was the Entwives grew gardens of there own and grew apart from the Ents I beleive (The Might will probably get some quotes on this) and eventually ceased to even see them. Then it is thought that the were found by minions of Sauron - Perhaps he used them to breed with trolls to create the 'Olog-hai' - combat trolls.


Perhaps some then scattered over the Earth some North some in the East, some round the Shire but none in the south. This may have been one that 'Hal' saw.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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No, mos111 they most certaintly did not breed with trolls
I believe you think that because Treebeard says that trolls were made in mockery of Ents but that does not mean Ents were corrupted for that purpose
and in fact, yes I have I think all the important quotes on this topic for you Bauglir

• “'It is rather a strange and sad story,' he went on after a pause. 'When the world was young, and the woods were wide and wild, the Ents and the Entwives – and there were Entmaidens then: ah! the loveliness of Fimbrethil, of Wandlimb the lightfooted, in the days of our youth! – they walked together and they housed together. But our hearts did not go on growing in the same way: the Ents gave their love to things that they met in the world, and the Entwives gave their thought to other things, for the Ents loved the great trees; and the wild woods, and the slopes of the high hills; and they drank of the mountain-streams, and ate only such fruit as the trees let fall in their path; and they learned of the Elves and spoke with the Trees. But the Entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forests; and they saw the sloe in the thicket, and the wild apple and the cherry blossoming in spring, and the green herbs in the waterlands in summer, and the seeding grasses in the autumn fields. They did not desire to speak with these things; but they wished them to hear and obey what was said to them. The Entwives ordered them to grow according to their wishes, and bear leaf and fruit to their liking; for the Entwives desired order, and plenty, and peace (by which they meant that things should remain where they had set them). So the Entwives made gardens to live in. But we Ents went on wandering, and we only came to the gardens now and again. Then when the Darkness came in the North, the Entwives crossed the Great River, and made new gardens, and tilled new fields, and we saw them more seldom. After the Darkness was overthrown the land of the Entwives blossomed richly, and their fields were full of corn. Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly; but we were only a legend to them, a secret in the heart of the forest. Yet here we still are, while all the gardens of the Entwives are wasted: Men call them the Brown Lands now.”
lotr
firstly the quote of Treebeard on this matter saying the story of the Entwives that left and made gardens for themselves to live in, but which were completely destroyed by Sauron.
still of course there was hope for them to return
but Tolkien makes his opinion clear in two quotes from his letters:
• “I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin. They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.“
(Letter #144)

• “I think it is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history' — but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world: beyond which the wisdom neither of Elves nor Ents could see.”
(Letter #338)

as Tolkien says there is a chance that Entwives survived, but no chance that there would be a re-union with the Ents

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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You misunderstand me TM.


I know that the trolls were bred as mockeries of Ents by Melkor but that was thousands of years previous.


What I meant was Sauron may have managed to capture some of the Entwives and then breed the Olog-hai attack trolls (not the Mountain trolls bred by Morgoth long before).



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Orc captain of Morgul - Rank 5
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In letter #44 Tolkien only says, 'I think' and 'I don't know'. Therefore you can't say for say for sure that the entwives didn't live in ME still.


In letter 178 Tolkien says this about Tom Bombadil:-


"I would not have left him in if he did not have some kind of function." 


The implication is clear: everything in the early chapters which was allowed to remain was left in for a reason. Therefore he may have left the Sam/Hal conversation in because maybe he changed his mind about about the entwives and decided that they did still exist in ME.



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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RE: Entwives in ME?Therefore it follows that the Entwives gone missing reason would fit nicely with my theory about Olog-hai.

It therefore follows that in order for the 'Entwives gone missing' part to develop there would need to be a purpose and my theory about Olog-hai fits well.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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RE: Entwives in ME?

firstly I never implied that
"Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic."
this is also a quote from letter #144, so of course as I said he says they might have survived but that they likely never met the Ents again

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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That is what i mean. Those ones that were enslaved could have been bred with trolls to create the Olog-hai by Sauron.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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and do you have any quotes for that?
I already gave you some quotes about that
you are just making some theories
and frankly, industrialized for agriculture in that quote doesn't really mean to me they were bred with trolls

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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If I could give you a quote stating that then THERE WOULD BE NO MISTERY TM! As NOTING is known of what became of them i am well within my rights to speculate.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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We all know that the Entwives left the Ents and founded their own gardens in what become known in the third age as the Brown lands. First, they will have, like Treebeard in Fangorn tried to defend their gardens with all their might and Saurons troops may have also destroyed them . Also, the Ents, like Hobbits and Tom Bombadil tended to leave the outside world alone until it affected them and were not concerned with the wars of men and wizards. Therefore, these reasons make it very unlikely any of them would submit to sauron and I doubt that sauron could capture one alive using Orcs, Therefore it is improbable that Sauron used them to breed Olog Hai, but this is my assumption m8.Also, on eof the other posts says about the possibility of entwives in th eShire, Fangorn weas once part of a larger forest, but the entwives on th eevidence we have, did not seem like the type to go that far north and felt content with what they had.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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"very unlikely any of them would submit to sauron and I doubt that sauron could capture one alive using Orcs"

why not?
Tolkien states it as a possibility, and we saw what kind of power Sauron had.
I guess it would have been a possibility.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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It could be a possibilty that they were captured but it is improbable. Orcs vs entwives? Id hedge my bets on that orcs would @ least have a hard time capturing them alive. Acknowledge the sensibilty of this point please friend.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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Perhaps the Entwives just became very tree-ish.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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It is also possible, but somewhat improbable. If their gardens were destroyed and they survivied then doubtless they would have tried to re-establish their gardens again. I would if I was an Entwife. I doubt they would just think " sod it" as soon as something they had spent years working on was destroyed. But this is my opinion and any other opinions are greatly appreciated.

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Royal Guard of Menegroth - Rank 5
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If you think about it, the Ents were able to forget about Entwives over time and then become tree-ish. Because of the way the Ents view time, its not improbable that the Entwives were simply deciding what to do next and lost track of time and grew tree-ish.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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I think the ents, being the shepherds of the forests became complacent as a forest can manage itself very well witthout assistance, Thus they may have become tree-ish in their complacency, realising not much was probably going to happen.


However Gardens require care and maintenance and the entwives knew this. Even with the long time that ents and entwives acted in the entwives would have known that the gardens needed to be sorted out anmd that they could not manage themselves, thus reducing the likelehood of them forgetting this pressing problem and turning tree-ish.



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Who can defeat my prowess in war on the guarded plain of Nargothrond?
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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I agree with TarPalantir on this one, I doubt the very busy and organized Entwives would have become as anarchic as the Ents. Their very different ways of seeing things was one of the main reasons for the Entwives leaving in the first place, so I would not compare the ideas of Ents and Entwives.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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That was my reasoning in the first place m8. Happy you see my point of view. So, what else can we talk about on the subject of Ents and Entwives?

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Who can defeat my prowess in war on the guarded plain of Nargothrond?
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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m8? lol, does that stand for might?
I thought might would be more like...mite

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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No m8 stands for mate. I like the way it looks but if you would rather me not call u m8nthen I wont. Ok then probably sorted there then. Any more discussion bout the Entwives???

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