i really, really, really, wish that Morgoth could one day, just have his day.
i mean like Tulkas comes to punch him in the face and Morgoth ****ing kills him with Grond.
and then he kills Manwe.
and tortures all the elves.
and just plain turns around and tells Eru off.
I mean i only feel this way cause it's like from the start all of it was caused just cause Melkor didnt think the same as all the other Ainur, and eventually that led to them shunning him and it progressed from there. And i mean it always seems like he's outnumbered and it always seems like he loses, and his victories were either really outnumbered or just plain cowardly. Like i was sorta hoping he just has his day and is able to punch Tulkas back in the teeth.
Neithan,
First off...welcome and well met! Hope to see your posts around here in the future.
What a way to shoot out of the gate, swinging! I like the spirit and the topic!
It DID seem that Melkor suffered a lot of demeaning incidents at the hands of those he meant to dominate but "Often does hatred hurt itself." as it was said in the Two Towers (I forget by who).
True he never delivered any kind of triumphant death-stroke over any of his enemies save Fingolfin but even then he lost a foot...! So I can understand the frustration someone might feel to see someone so mighty and immense take beating after beating. He even suffered the insolence of Beren and Luthien.
But what little victory he had was immeasurable in its malice and devastation on a global scale....meaning the destruction of the Trees of Valinor. From there things just took a turn away from bliss to strife, lasting throughout the history of Arda.
I think you're totally onto something there, Neithan.... i have to say that Melkor/Morgoth was certainly no punching bag. It seemed like none of the Eldar or Valar cared about his power, like he was passed over, which is a big mistake in most circles. I feel that Eru felt that Melkor/Morgoth would bring balance to all things; like Obi-wan said of Vadar who was to bring balance to the Force. How Tolkien wrote his epic was sweet. He made the story about Good and Evil (not an opera, which finds good in Evil acts).
I love Star Wars...so don't misunderstand my standpoint on this... I think Tolkien made us believe in mythology again! Mythology only serves to make us believe in ourselves as powerful beings. I am... You are... Powerful. What if the world was all lollipops and candy canes? would there be any strife? Would any heroes arise from the ashes if there were no ashes?
Just saying...hope I helped...
Good topic by the way...
-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Sunday 14th of July 2013 09:06:02 AM
Thank you for the welcome! Ill do my best to post on others also! That is very true. In that sense he had one of the greatest victories of all. Also, it was recently pointed out to me that it could have been Eru to have created all evil in a sense. According to the theory: He created Melkor as he did because he knew that he would try to go down his own path and that would eventually lead to evil. He then didnt stop Melkor from singing in his discord because he wanted there to be evil in order to contrast the good. So in a way that would make Melkor just a puppet/punching bag for Eru, which is most unbecoming for Iluvatar!
Thank you and i totally agree. Without evil there wouldn't be the same good. Tolkien was a genius. And i also love starwars. I also just found how in the Ailulindale Iluvatar said that "This world will never be as i had planned because of you" to melkor, but i dont neccesarily think that is a bad thing. It's like how when melkor made extreme temperatures and in turn made clouds and snow in the progress, it was never planned, but good came from the bad.
I have to say that there have been times that I felt like Melkor got a raw deal. It's sort of like how I feel about Judas Iscariot. But, I also remember that Melkor chose to go against Eru's plan because he thought he knew better. He wasn't able to accept the correction of Illuvatar and everyone suffered for it. Yes, good came out of it, but how much cooler could it have been if he'd "played" along with the music?
Just my 2... where's the cents key on the computer keyboard?!
˘, its between the "0" and "-" keys. (hah). I agree, he has gotten numerous raw deals but looking back on it i feel he has deserved most of them, especially with what he did to Hurin and the Trees of Valinor for example. I almost feel if he didnt create discord in the story it would have been boring, like a story without a conflict is just sorta people going on with their daily lifes; it gets old. I also feel like Melkor went against Eru's plan just because he didn't want to be a.... conformist?. But he acted like a small child: so pridefull and so stubborn to forgive over trivial matters. However with this said after a while i can see how he would have liked to get revenge on the others, especially after being trapped for 300 Valinor years. I also feel bad for him because he seems to always be.. alone? i mean he had allies but he had to make them. He was the only Ainur that turned evil and he had to make his servants (orcs, dragons, corrupting maia), i almost feel as if he never stood a chance, especially because Eru could simply destroy him with the blink of an eye. Like, what im trying to say, is that i wish it had been a more fair playing ground.
Especially how Melkor was pretty much just a tool to make the good better as shown by bear:
"Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
Then the Ainur were afraid, and they did not yet comprehend the words that were said to them; and Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger. But Ilúvatar arose in splendour, and he went forth from the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur; and the Ainur followed him.
But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory."
(The Silmarillion, Ainulindale: "The Music of the Ainur", pg 17)"
so that would mean that he knew that Melkor was going to be punished for doing what he did, but in a sense he MADE him do it. Which i think is an extremely d*ck move and Morgoth should almost get revenge for that.
The problem is Melkor is a special - unique, even - case. It's often the case that we may feel sympathy for those who are meant to be the bad guy because we feel that they were mislead into evil, or circumstances drove them that way etc. But in the case of Melkor that doesn't apply. He didn't simply 'turn evil' he made evil itself. He is the concept we call 'evil'. With this in mind it's difficult to try and feel sorry for him, he has no redeeming features and no hope of recovery. Generally with bad guys we try and find some small straw to clutch at and say 'if only'. But with Melkor it just doesn't apply.
I don't really wish that he gets a victory when it comes to his fight with others. But when his story just starts I cannot help sympathizing with him. Originally he is by no means evil, he just wants the freedom to create. When being alone he thinks of something his own, and when (after a long while by the way) he tries to bring these thoughts into the Music the dissonance arises immediately (maybe he chose a wrong key and had little idea of how to transpose to be more in harmony). Eru puts him to shame and the shame turns to anger and apparently all evil comes out of it.
Eru certainly knew what he was doing, thus provoking his mightiest Ainu. It appears indeed that he simply needed Melkor's "help" in the devising and development of the newly created world. Yes Melkor most definitely is used as a tool. Whether that's "fair" or "not fair" is another question. But why did Eru weep then, after his second theme failed? Wasn't he expecting just that?
In earlier versions of the legendarium Melko (that's his name then) is an insolent, almost comic character, who makes me laugh and not feel sorry for him.
-- Edited by Lorelline on Thursday 25th of July 2013 06:20:37 PM
By the way, there is a similar thread in the Advanced Lore discussion (Experienced Fanatic forum) called The Adversary (sorry cannot post the link using my mobile device). There are even quotations from scientific papers and conferences. Very impressive... Are there grant proposals too?
I totally agree with you there Lorelline, and Eru's weeping is a good point. Ill be sure to read the earlier versions of the legendarium also. And thanks for the alternate thread tip. I'll check it out.
It's quite clear Melkor was destined to become evil. Clearly part of Eru's 'greater plan'. I'm not really sure one can think of it in terms of Melkor 'being used' as such. Remember what the Ainur are - they are offspring of Eru's thought. They're not, apparently, fully independent beings unto themselves as Elves and Men seem to be (though these obviously also originate from Eru's thought). The way I image the Ainur are individual 'chunks' of Eru's mind that he's 'broken off' and made into actual beings.
Maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe the Ainur are fully autonomous beings in the same way Men and Elves are. I think it says that Eru kindled them with the Flame Imperishable so maybe that blows my original idea out of the water.
"And since I have kindled you with the Fire, ye shall exercise your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices."
"Iluvatar made the Elves most like in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature".
I gather from this that if one considers Elves autonomous beings, then Ainur also are. Ainur are given life and have their own powers and devices (Melko(r) including - I only have the Lost Road's Ainulindale in front of me but I believe that except for the "Vision of the World" part, not much has changed in later versions, until the latest).
Eru knows what would happen - Melko(r)'s actions as well - but this doesn't mean that the Ainur/Valar are just puppets, they have their free will.
-- Edited by Lorelline on Thursday 25th of July 2013 06:26:20 PM
-- Edited by Lorelline on Friday 2nd of August 2013 08:38:57 PM
The subject of free will is a complicated one. There is alot of fore-knowledge and fate in this legendarium, it's sometimes difficult to reconcile it with free will.
For example much of Beren's life is fated regarding finding Luthein and the quest to bring back the Silmarils. But men are supposed to be free of fate, as it says here:
"Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest." - The Silmarillion
Turin and co you can excuse, because Morgoth put a curse on that family. But there are plenty of other cases where fate plays a part. For example Aragorn foretells that he and Eomer will meet in battle once again after they part ways (Aragorn going off to the Paths of the Dead etc).
The whole quest to destroy the One Ring also seems fated.
As for the Ainur - they seem to exist solely to do the tasks assigned to them. This is made even more apparent when Tolkien changed his mind so that they couldn't have offspring. In earlier versions they could reproduce - for example 'Fionwe' was the son of Manwe and Varda. But in later versions they could not, Fionwe becoming Eonwe and just a Maiar in the service of Manwe.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
It looks like foreknowledge and free will could be reconciled. In fact, this is nicely shown in the Screwtape Letters (I am reluctant to copy from that book - it's not Tolkien's, although dedicated to him by C.S.Lewis; perhaps I can if the rules here allow).
In your own example, how is Beren "fated"? True there is plenty of foreknowledge concerning him and his quest. We hear Melian's foretelling (to Thingol) that a Man will come through her Girdle; also Finrod's foretelling (to Galadriel) that he will fulfill his oath given to Barahir, and die (I vaguely recall that in the Lay of Leithian he also predicted a success to this quest and a failure to Feanorians' attempts to get the Silmarils)... Melian also predicts that since Thingol asked Beren to bring a Silmaril, his (Thingol's - also his kingdom's if I am not confused) fate will be impacted by that. Maybe there was something else. Yet Beren had no idea about these predictions and was acting of his free will. (One more thing is Gorlim's wraith appearing to Beren telling of the betrayal of the Barahir's company. That indeed has a direct influence on the course of events.)
I seem to fail to see a direct connection between the free will and the ability to procreate. Plants and animals procreate, do they have free will? Procreation is not creation by a new design of other creatures with their own free will - only Eru can do this. Procreating individuals even have little to no control over the appearance, abilities, or personality of their offspring. And by the way, Ainur could procreate if incarnate. Ainur were given at least certain freedom to further develop Eru's ideas. Well, there are always limitations (at least by nature's laws) to any free will. It seems the Advanced Lore discussion referred to above covered this pretty well.
-- Edited by Lorelline on Friday 2nd of August 2013 08:38:09 PM
"Nothing hindered him, and the might of Melian upon the borders of the land stayed him not; for fate drove him, and the power of the Silmaril that he bore to his torment."
"Melian said nothing to him at that time, but afterwards she said to Galadriel: 'Now the world runs on swiftly to great tidings. And one of Men, even of Bëor's house, shall indeed come, and the Girdle of Melian shall not restrain him, for doom greater than my power shall send him; and the songs that shall spring from that coming shall endure when all Middle-earth is changed."
But the first quote is about Carcharoth, isn't it?
And so I was wrong, it was Galadriel not Thingol with whom Melian shared her vision. Right - she informed Thingol that he wouldn't be the one to slay Beren. But doom (as I understand) here means that she knows what will happen to Beren... while Beren does not know and chooses by himself what to do.
No "evil" person thinks themselves evil. Melkor believed what he was doing was justified. He didn't believe he should be forced to conform to Iluvatar's vision. He could not create his own creatures, so he made do with what he had. Had he the control to create his own living beings, I highly doubt that would be as despicable as orcs. He wanted power - a flaw that many can relate to -, and to lead his own "life". I can sympathize with him: being created the greatest of a race (if Ainur can be considered a race) but given a list of rules restraining your great power. I just feel Melkor had some "humanity" in him, for better or worse.
