Tolkien Forums

Bard the Bowman,
Welcome to the Tolkien Forums.
I think you will enjoy this place and from your first two postings I believe you will be a most welcome contributor.
I am only a member here but if I can be of any help please don't hesitate to ask.
There are many knowledgeable folks here and participate just because they love Tolkien and his works.
As you can see through the various categories and individual threads there is much to learn and to share.  If you see a  long past date please don't hesitate to offer your expertise or opinion.  Re-opening old threads is something most of us love and your input will be welcomed.
So again,
Welcome!
Bear an Elf-Friend

Your question;
"So the question is, why did Gandalf want to take out Smaug, and not Durin's Bane?"


First of all there were Elven warriors and rulers who had suspicions that "Durin's Bain" slept in deep Moria. And the White Council knew it ... Gandalf knew the history ... and from the excerpts I am posting evidence his suspicions as well.
Second as related to Smaug, Gandalf was more concerned about the removal of "The Necromancer" by The White Council than what he saw as the minor task of removing the dragon.
Third it isn't Gandalf The White who struggles with Durin's Bane it is Gandalf the Grey (a worthy but weaker version of wizard) and his job from Eru was to support the beings of Middle-earth in their battle against Sauron ... Smaug just happens to be a threat left over from Morgoth's defeat (as is Durin's Bane)
Lastly ... Gandalf didn't create these characters ... Tolkien did.
And he changed his mind ... from 1937 to 1954 ... and more changes were revealed with the passing multiple decades from before WWI until 1973  by Christopher Tolkien's releasing his father's unpublished notes and manuscripts.
So comparing all the sources Gandalf's motivation is different because the stories are different ... and the foes are different.

"Tolkien's conception of Balrogs changed over time. In all his early writing, they are numerous. There is a host of them stated to number a thousand in Quenta Silmarillion while at the storming of Gondolin, Balrogs in the hundreds ride on the backs of the Dragons. They are roughly of twice human size, and were occasionally killed in battle by Elves and, at the Fall of Gondolin, five were slain by Tuor. They were fierce demons, associated with fire, armed with fiery whips of many thongs and claws like steel, and Morgoth delighted in using them to torture his captives. They were loyal to Morgoth, and once came out of hiding to save him from capture.
In the published version of The Lord of the Rings, however, Balrogs became altogether more sinister and more powerful. Christopher Tolkien notes the difference, saying that in earlier versions they were "less terrible and certainly more destructible". He quotes a very late margin note that was not incorporated into the text saying "at most seven" ever existed; though in the Annals of Aman, written as late as 1958, after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, Melkor still commands "a host of Balrogs". In later writings they ceased to be creatures, but are instead Maiar, lesser Ainur like Gandalf or Sauron, spirits of fire whom Melkor had corrupted before the creation of the World. They required power of the order of Gandalf's to destroy them, and as Maiar, only their physical forms could be destroyed.

There are a few specially named Balrogs  but the one we are concerned with here is "Durin's Bane".
This Balrog appears in The Lord of the Rings, encountered by the Fellowship of the Ring in the Mines of Moria.

It survived the defeat of Morgoth in the War of Wrath and escaped to hide beneath the Misty Mountains. For more than five millennia, the Balrog remained in its deep hiding place at the roots of the mountains in Khazad-dûm, until in the Third Age the mithril-miners of Dwarf-King Durin VI disturbed it (or released it from its prison) in T.A. 1980. Durin was killed by the Balrog, whence it was called Durin's Bane by the Dwarves.
The Dwarves attempted to fight the Balrog, but its power was far too great. Despite their efforts to hold Khazad-dûm against it, King Náin and many other Dwarves were killed and the survivors were forced to flee. This disaster also reached the Silvan Elves of Lórien, many of whom also fled the "Nameless Terror" (it was not recognized as a Balrog at the time). The Elves called the place Moria, the "Black Pit" or "Black Chasm" (though the name Moria also appears on the West Gate of Moria, constructed thousands of years earlier in the Second Age).
For another 500 years, Moria was left to the Balrog; though according to Unfinished Tales, Orcs crept in almost immediately after the Dwarves were driven out, leading to Nimrodel's flight. Around T.A. 2480 Sauron began to put his plans for war into effect, and he sent Orcs and Trolls to the Misty Mountains to bar all of the passes: Some of these creatures came to Moria, and the Balrog allowed them to remain.
During the reign of Thráin II, the Dwarves attempted to retake Moria in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, culminating in the Battle of Azanulbizar before the eastern gate of Moria in T.A. 2799. This was a victory for the Dwarves, but the presence of the Balrog prevented their occupying Moria. Dáin Ironfoot, having slain the Orc Azog near the gate, perceived the terror of the Balrog within and warned Thráin that Moria was unachievable until some force could change the world and remove the Balrog. The Dwarves thus departed and resumed their exile.
Despite Dáin's warning, Balin attempted to re-colonize Moria in T.A. 2989, but his party was destroyed. Dáin was killed in battle at the end of the War of the Ring in T.A. 3019, just as the change he spoke of was coming to pass.
In January T.A. 3019, the Fellowship of the Ring traveled through Moria on the way to Mount Doom. They were attacked in the Chamber of Mazarbul by Orcs. The Fellowship fled through a side door, but when the wizard Gandalf the Grey tried to place a "shutting spell" on the door to block the pursuit behind them, the Balrog entered the chamber on the other side and cast a counterspell. Gandalf spoke a word of Command to stay the door, but the door shattered and the chamber collapsed. Gandalf was severely weakened by this encounter. The company fled with him, but the Orcs and the Balrog, taking a different route, caught up with them at the bridge of Khazad-dûm. The Elf Legolas instantly recognized the Balrog and Gandalf tried to hold the bridge against it. Since Gandalf and the Balrog were both Maiar, they were beings of the same order. As they faced each other, Gandalf said, "You cannot pass!", and broke the Bridge beneath the Balrog. As it fell, the Balrog wrapped its whip about Gandalf's knees, dragging him to the brink. As the Fellowship looked on in horror, Gandalf cried "Fly, you fools!" and fell.

After the long fall, the two landed in a subterranean lake, which extinguished the flames of the Balrog's body; however it remained "a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake". They fought in the water, with the Balrog clutching at Gandalf to strangle him, and Gandalf hewing the Balrog with his sword, until finally the Balrog fled into ancient tunnels of unknown origin. Gandalf pursued the creature for eight days, until they climbed to the peak of Zirakzigil, where the Balrog was forced to turn and fight once again, its body erupting into new flame. Here they fought for two days and nights. In the end, the Balrog was defeated and cast down, breaking the mountainside where it fell "in ruin". Gandalf himself died following this ordeal, but he was later sent back to Middle-earth with even greater powers, as Gandalf the White, "until his task was finished". Tolkien does not reveal the ultimate fate of the Balrog.
(With Thanks to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balrog)


Here are a few reference quotes from The Lord of The Rings;

"The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane."
(The Lord Of The Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter IV ~  "A Journey in the Dark", pg 317)

"What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
'Ai! ai! ' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come! '
Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane! ' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shout of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted. Then the echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind, and the enemy advanced again.
'Over the bridge!' cried Gandalf, recalling his strength. `Fly! This is a foe beyond any of you. I must hold the narrow way. Fly! ' Aragorn and Boromir did not heed the command, but still held their ground, side by side, behind Gandalf at the far end of the bridge. The others halted just within the doorway at the hall's end, and turned, unable to leave their leader to face the enemy alone.
The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.
From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
Glamdring glittered white in answer.
There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.
'You cannot pass! ' he said.
With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed.
'He cannot stand alone! ' cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. 'Elendil!' he shouted. 'I am with you, Gandalf! '
`Gondor! ' cried Boromir and leaped after him.
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog's feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard's knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools! ' he cried, and was gone.
(The Lord Of The Rings,The Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter V  ~ "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm", pgs 329-331)



When all the guests were seated before his chair the Lord looked at them again. 'Here there are eight,' he said. `Nine were to set out: so said the messages. But maybe there has been some change of counsel that we have not heard. Elrond is far away, and darkness gathers between us, and all this year the shadows have grown longer.'
`Nay, there was no change of counsel,' said the Lady Galadriel speaking for the first time. Her voice was clear and musical, but deeper than woman's wont. `Gandalf the Grey set out with the Company, but he did not pass the borders of this land. Now tell us where he is; for I much desired to speak with him again. But I cannot see him from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlórien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me.'
'Alas! ' said Aragorn. `Gandalf the Grey fell into shadow. He remained in Moria and did not escape.'
At these words all the Elves in the hall cried aloud in grief and amazement. `These are evil tidings,' said Celeborn, `the most evil that have been spoken here in long years full of grievous deeds.' He turned to Haldir. `Why has nothing of this been told to me before? ' he asked in the Elven-tongue.
'We have not spoken to Haldir of our deeds or our purpose,' said Legolas. `At first we were weary and danger was too close behind and afterwards we almost forgot our grief for a time, as we walked in gladness on the fair paths of Lórien.'
`Yet our grief is great and our loss cannot be mended,' said Frodo. 'Gandalf was our guide, and he led us through Moria; and when our escape seemed beyond hope he saved us, and he fell.'
'Tell us now the full tale! ' said Celeborn:
Then Aragorn recounted all that had happened upon the pass of Caradhras, and in the days that followed; and he spoke of Balin and his book, and the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul, and the fire, and the narrow bridge, and the coming of the Terror. 'An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before,' said Aragorn. `It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
`Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams l saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes.
'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, l would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.'
`He would be rash indeed that said that thing,' said Galadriel gravely. `Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose. But however it may be with the guide, the followers are blameless."
(The Lord Of The Rings,The Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter VII ~ "The Mirror of Galadriel", pgs 355-356)


'Yes, together we will follow you,' said Legolas. 'But first, it would ease my heart, Gandalf, to hear what befell you in Moria. Will you not tell us? Can you not stay even to tell your friends how you were delivered?'
'I have stayed already too long,' answered Gandalf. 'Time is short. But if there were a year to spend, I would not tell you all.'
'Then tell us what you will, and time allows!' said Gimli. 'Come, Gandalf, tell us how you fared with the Balrog!'
'Name him not!' said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. 'Long time I fell,' he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. 'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'
'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,' said Gimli.
'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'
'Long has that been lost,' said Gimli. 'Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.'
'It was made, and it had not been destroyed,' said Gandalf. 'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed. ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirak-zigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapor and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell."
(The Lord Of The Rings, Two Towers, Book Three, Chapter V ~ "The White Rider", pgs 501-502)

Here are the various publications where material about Balrogs can be found.

• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1954), The Fellowship of the Ring, The Lord of the Rings, Boston: Houghton Mifflin (published 1987), ISBN 0-395-08254-4
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1954), The Two Towers, The Lord of the Rings, Boston: Houghton Mifflin (published 1987), ISBN 0-395-08254-4
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1955), The Return of the King, The Lord of the Rings, Boston: Houghton Mifflin (published 1987), ISBN 0-395-08256-0
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1977), Christopher Tolkien, ed., The Silmarillion, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-25730-1
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1984), Christopher Tolkien, ed., The Book of Lost Tales, Part One, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-35439-0
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1984), Christopher Tolkien, ed., The Book of Lost Tales, Part Two, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-36614-3
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1985), Christopher Tolkien, ed., The Lays of Beleriand, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-39429-5
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1987), Christopher Tolkien, ed., The Lost Road and Other Writings, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-45519-7
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1989), Christopher Tolkien, ed., The Treason of Isengard, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-51562-9
• Tolkien, J. R. R. (1993), Christopher Tolkien, ed., Morgoth's Ring, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-68092-1

So the answer to your question; " ... why did Gandalf want to take out Smaug, and not Durin's Bane?" can have many answers depending on the perspective it is examined from.
For me it is simply stated that Smaug wasn't hidden ... everyone knew exactly where he was.  And Durin's Bane was thought dead or asleep in the uncovered deeps of Moria ... only reawakened after Smaug's death by the dwarves trying to re-colonize Moria and mining deep for mithril.

Bard,

The point was they didn't know he was there. They thought all Balrogs were hiding, asleep, or destroyed ; they thought he was dead.

Morgoth abused his warriors ... until they were almost all wiped out ... Balrogs included.

Smaug was a lessor dragon ... young even ... "a lessor spawn of greater sires."

And Gandalf did expect the dwarves to give the dragon his commupance.

He counted on the dwarves lust for gold and treasure and the ingenuity of the hobbit to rid the North of the dragon's terror.

Gandalf an old fool? I don't think so.

But you do make a point.

Bard,
Again welcome.

As to "Gandalf the Old Fool?" ...
Did you take into consideration;
    * That "The Hobbit" was a story for children in 1937 and then later revised.
    * That "The Lord of The Rings" was released in three parts in 1954 and 1955 and had its roots in the Silmarillion that Tolkien started writing while on the front during World War I?     
    *That "The Silmarillion"  was published posthumously in 1977 and Christopher Tolkien included margin notes and partial manuscripts which were often at odds with each other.  The Silmarillion index lists Balrogs as a  reference 10 times ... and there are inconsistencies.
   * In 1980 "Unfinished Tales" the Balrogs are in the index only once and that is in reference to Gothmog, (Lord of Balrogs)

As an inducement to a fair and well researched discussion here are a few more suggestions to round out our play.
These are ALL the Balrogs referenced from the index of "The Silmarillion";

"But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror."
(The Silmarillion, Valaquenta: Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar, Of the Enemies, pg 31)

"But in the north Melkor built his strength, and he slept not, but watched, and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days. And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over Middle-earth."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter III ~ "Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor" , pg 47)

"Deep in forgotten places that cry was heard. Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight ..."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter IX ~ "Of the Flight of the Noldor", pg 81)

"Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin. There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come up with force to his aid; and the Balrogs left him, and departed to Angband ... But even in the hour of the death of Fëanor an embassy came to his sons from Morgoth, acknowledging defeat, and offering terms, even to the surrender of a Silmaril. Then Maedhros the tall, the eldest son, persuaded his brothers to feign to treat with Morgoth, and to meet his emissaries at the place appointed; but the Noldor had as little thought of faith as had he. Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed; but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs. Maedhros was ambushed, and all his company were slain; but he himself was taken alive by the command of Morgoth, and brought to Angband.
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter XIII ~ "Of the Return of the Noldor", pgs 107-108)

"Thither, as was earlier told, Ungoliant had fled from the whips of the Balrogs, and there she dwelt a while, filling the ravines with her deadly gloom ..."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter XIV ~  "Of Beleriand and Its Realms", pg 121)

"In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined. And they assaulted the fortresses of the Noldor, and broke the leaguer about Angband, and slew wherever they found them the Noldor and their allies. Grey-elves and Men. Many of the stoutest of the foes of Morgoth were destroyed in the first days of that war, bewildered and dispersed and unable to muster their strength. War ceased not wholly ever again in Beleriand; but the Battle of Sudden Flame is held to have ended with the coming of spring, when the onslaught of Morgoth grew less.... And because of the strength and height of the Shadowy Mountains, which withstood the torrent of fire, and by the valour of the Elves and the Men of the North, which neither Orc nor Balrog could yet overcome, Hithlum remained unconquered, a threat upon the flank of Morgoth's attack; but Fingolfin was sundered from his kinsmen by a sea of foes."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter XVIII ~  "Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin", pg 151-152)

"Thus he wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared within the curse of Mandos. And those that heard these words perceived that Thingol would save his oath, and yet send Beren to his death; for they know that not all the power of the Noldor, before the Siege was broken, had availed even to see from afar the shining Silmarils of Fëanor. For they were set in the Iron Crown, and treasured in Angband above all wealth; and Balrogs were about them, and countless swords, and strong bars, and unassailable walls, and the dark majesty of Morgoth."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter XIX ~  "Of Beren and Lúthien", pg 167)

"Now the phalanx of the guard of the King broke through the ranks of the Orcs, and Turgon hewed his way to the side of his brother; and it is told that the meeting of Turgon with Húrin, who stood beside Fingon, was glad in the midst of battle. Then hope was renewed in the hearts of the Elves; and in that very time, at the third hour of morning, the trumpets of Maedhros were heard at last coming up from the east, and the banners of the sons of Fëanor assailed the enemy in the rear. Some have said that even then the Eldar might have won the day, had all their hosts proved faithful; for the Orcs wavered, and their onslaught was stayed, and already some were turning to flight. But even as the vanguard of Maedhros came upon the Orcs, Morgoth loosed his last strength, and Angband was emptied. There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons, and Glaurung father of dragons. The strength and terror of the Great Worm were now great indeed, and Elves and Men withered before him; and he came between the hosts of Maedhros and Fingon and swept them apart ...
Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men....
But now in the western battle Fingon and Turgon were assailed by a tide of foes thrice greater than all the force that was left to them. Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come; and he drove a dark wedge between the Elvenhosts, surrounding King Fingon, and thrusting Turgon and Húrin aside towards the Fen of Serech. Then he turned upon Fingon. That was a grim meeting. At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the High King of the Noldor; and they beat him into the dust with their maces, and his banner, blue and silver, they trod into the mire of his blood."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter XX ~  "Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad", pgs 192-193)

"At last, in the year when Eärendil was seven years old, Morgoth was ready, and he loosed upon Gondolin his Balrogs, and his Orcs, and his wolves; and with them came dragons of the brood of Glaurung, and they were become now many and terrible. The host of Morgoth came over the northern hills where the height was greatest and the watch least vigilant, and it came at night upon a time of festival, when all the people of Gondolin were upon the walls to await the rising sun, and sing their songs at its uplifting; for the morrow was the great feast that they named the Gates of Summer. But the red light mounted the hills in the north and not in the east; and there was no stay in the advance of the foe until they were beneath the very walls of Gondolin, and the city was beleaguered without hope. Of the deeds of desperate valour there done, by the chieftains of the noble houses and their warriors, and not least by Tuor, much is told in The Fall of Gondolin: of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of the King, where each slew the other, and of the defence of the tower of Turgon by the people of his household, until the tower was overthrown; and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin ...
... There was a dreadful pass, Cirith Thoronath it was named, the Eagles' Cleft, where beneath the shadow of the highest peaks a narrow path wound its way; on the right hand it was walled by a precipice, and on the left a dreadful fall leapt into emptiness. Along that narrow way their march was strung, when they were ambushed by Orcs, for Morgoth had set watchers all about the encircling hills; and a Balrog was with them. Then dreadful was their plight, and hardly would they have been saved by the valour of yellow-haired Glorfindel, chief of the House of the Golden Flower of Gondolin, had not Thorondor come timely to their aid.
Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss. But the eagles coming stooped upon the Orcs, and drove them shrieking back; and all were slain or cast into the deeps, so that rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears. Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, and they buried him in a mound of stones beside the pass; and a green turf came there, and yellow flowers bloomed upon it amid the barrenness of stone, until the world was changed."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter XXIII ~  "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin", pgs 242-243)

"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Anfauglith could not contain it; and all the North was aflame with war.
But it availed him not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth; and the uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after. And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar; and they were avenged in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galdor and Gundor, Huor and Húrin, and many others of their lords. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others new-come out of the east, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown and his power dispersed, Morgoth quailed, and he dared not to come forth himself. But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire.
But Eärendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle in the air all the day and through a dark night of doubt. Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin. Then the sun rose, and the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed, and the might of the Valar descended into the deeps of the earth. There Morgoth stood at last at bay, and yet unvaliant. He fled into the deepest of his mines, and sued for peace and pardon; but his feet were hewn from under him, and he was hurled upon his face. Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the two Silmarils which remained to Morgoth were taken from his crown, and they shone unsullied beneath the sky; and Eönwë took them, and guarded them."
(The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarilion, Chapter XXIV ~  "Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath", pgs 251-252)



As to the other points you have raised a have just a few insights which lead us to a difference only of opinion.

That we don't know what happened to Balin in Moria is the reason Gloin comes with his son Gimli to seek counsel from Elrond and the rest of the wise... they don't know what is wrong they just know things aren't as they should be.
No one is sure what happened in Balin's attempt to establish a new dwarf kingdom in Moria until they find the manuscript  in the Chamber of Mazarbul. (The Chamber of Records)
The manuscript seems more worried about ambushing orcs and the Watcher in the Water.
The end seems to be more about being trapped by orcs and hill trolls and that they "can't get out."
As Gandalf holds the door he senses the power of the still unidentified Balrog ... and no one is positive until Legolas at the Bridge of Khazad-dûm where Gandalf puts it all together and makes his solitary stand.
No fool was Gandalf ..... he knew that he alone could face this deadly evil ... and he did to his very death.

I think that to continue this it might be advisable to define our terms ... those being ... Maiar, Olorin (Gandalf) and his mission, and the past history of the Dwarves to Elves, Men, and the minions of Morgoth.

Certainly an interesting sojourn when describing one of Tolkien's heroes as a "fool."

Shall we continue?

Bard,
I am a little confused.  But still enjoying this!
You say; "I'm not saying Gandalf was a fool for leading the Fellowship into Moria or fighting the Balrog. I'm saying that his judgment is in question due to the fact he never thought Durin's Bane was a threat."
So Gandalf is not a fool ... he was just foolish in one thing ... not recognizing that the dwarves had awoken the Balrog.
Gandalf wasn't a God.  Gandalf wasn't even an angel.  He was Istari; that is one of five Maiar sent to earth to battle Sauron.  He did not see the future.  As he arrived one of the Three Rings of the Elves, called the Red Ring and the Ring of Fire; (originally borne by Círdan the Shipwright) was given  to Gandalf on his arrival in Middle-earth.
He was a member of the White Council but wouldn't accept a leadership role on it.  It went to Saruman ~ (we know how that worked out!)


The White Council was formed in the Third Age to combat the Necromancer of Dol Guldur.(who it turns out to be Sauron and a few of his Nazgul) The White Council thought they had driven the Necromancer out, but it was just a strategic retreat foe Sauron. (maybe he was tipped off by Saruman)

Rivendell and Lothlorien were surrounded by a multitude of enemies and found many ways to combat these foes.  There were so many that what was happening deep in Moria was beyond their sight.
Dol Guldur was eastwards across the Anduin River in the southwest corner of Mirkwood.  (less than 100 miles from Lorien and Caras Galadhon.)
The Trolls and Goblins haunted the mountains nearest Rivendell and, as we saw in The Fellowship of the Ring, there are all kinds of nasty things on the roads leading to and from Rivendell. (Old Man Willow, Barrow-wights, Trolls, Goblins and Orcs, Highway Men, giant spiders, Gollum, etc.)
In short there are enough bad guys surrounding them that Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, (and Gandalf too) probably thought very little about the creatures  (Balrogs)  who disappeared (believed destroyed) in the defeat of Morgoth.


At Rivendell "Gandalf didn't jump up and shout ..." because he wasn't sure he knew the answer.  It was also the policy to discuss the dangers faced in the most obscure and misleading way and behind closed doors ... (the letter sent by Gandalf to Frodo about Aragorn ... "all that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost" is a good example) This was done as a way of avoiding panic and impulsive and not well thought out responses and actions. I also see that as Tolkien has developed the character of Gandalf secrecy and misdirection are a common foil of the wizard;

• Tricking Bilbo to go along with Thorin as a "burgler."
• Getting Bilbo to leave the Ring to Frodo.
• The veil of secrecy surrounding the Ring.
• Getting Frodo to sell Bag End.
• Leaving special letters which carry verses to recognizing
• And these are just a few ...

Gandalf is just not the personality to "jump up and shout ..."


As to folks being unconcerned about the evil in Moria I offer some small evidence to the contrary.
And Tolkien manages to see your point of Gandalf falling into folly but he refutes it immediately.

"Then Aragorn recounted all that had happened upon the pass of Caradhras, and in the days that followed; and he spoke of Balin and his book, and the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul, and the fire, and the narrow bridge, and the coming of the Terror. 'An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before,' said Aragorn. `It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas; `of all elf-banes the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'
`Indeed I saw upon the bridge that which haunts our darkest dreams l saw Durin's Bane,' said Gimli in a low voice, and dread was in his eyes.
'Alas! ' said Celeborn. `We long have feared that under Caradhras a terror slept. But had I known that the Dwarves had stirred up this evil in Moria again, l would have forbidden you to pass the northern borders, you and all that went with you. And if it were possible, one would say that at the last Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria.'
`He would be rash indeed that said that thing,' said Galadriel gravely. `Needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose. But however it may be with the guide, the followers are blameless. Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from Lothlórien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons?
'Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' She looked upon Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and she smiled. And the Dwarf, hearing the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding. Wonder came into his face, and then he smiled in answer.
He rose clumsily and bowed in dwarf-fashion, saying: `Yet more fair is the living land of Lórien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth! '
There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. `I did not know that your plight was so evil,' he said. `Let Gimli forget my harsh words: I spoke in the trouble of my heart. I will do what I can to aid you, each according to his wish and need, but especially that one of the little folk who bears the burden.'
 (The Lord Of The Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book Two, Chapter VII ~ "The Mirror of Galadriel", pg 356)

So I guess elvish Lord Celeborn and Lady Galadriel had a suspicion that a Balrog slept in the depths of Moria. They had been in Middle-Earth for many ages and would recognize the characteristics of such a character of the Balrog.  But Gandalf was new to Middle-Earth. (Third Age only)  He wouldn't know if he was powerful enough to defeat one of the minions of Morgoth.  But he would know that he was Maiar. He knew he was given the power and the skills by Eru to defeat the lieutenants of Morgoth.
I doubt he knew which element of Morgoth's evil resided asleep deep in Moria.  But after he arrived at the Moria gates near The Watcher in the Water he knew that he was up against ancient evil ... but I don't believe he was sure which one.

Now as to your point "Now I don't want to be controversial ...", I have to chuckle.
Meaning no disrespect but this topic was controversial from the first posting.
Please don't be offended ... that is a good thing, especially here.
"So the question is, why did Gandalf want to take out Smaug, and not Durin's Bane?"
Gandalf wanted to take out all that was evil. But he didn't know all that was evil ~ at least he wasn't sure exactly what was evil. He wasn't sure exactly where Durin's bane was ~ my point is the question itself is controversial.
Even the title to the thread "Gandalf the Old Fool?" is controversial.
In your last posting you waiver a fair distance from your first question;
"Again, I'm not saying Gandalf was a fool for leading the Fellowship into Moria or fighting the Balrog. I'm saying that his judgment is in question due to the fact he never thought Durin's Bane was a threat."
"... his judgment is in question ..." is set to provoke a response. ...Judgement? Question? Even that he thought Durin's Bane not a threat ... he knew it was a threat. Balrogs are always a threat. He just wasn't sure where Durin's Bane was hiding, sleeping, caged, or dead.

You may claim innocence, but this topic was meant "to stir the pot."

Which keeps us all growing, listening, researching, reading, and writing ... about Tolkien ... which is exactly what this Forum is meant to do!



That bottom line is this;
You provoked an interesting discussion.
Your topic provided "a forum" where material could be generated that we possibly all might learn from.
Please don't be afraid to speak your mind here.  The site moderators are very good here and hold an open tolerant attitude within a structure that welcomes divergent viewpoints. "Controversial" is a stepping stone to an exchange of opinion and a chance to learn.
Lastly, if something really bugs you, use the private message feature in your profile. Most of us use it for support and encouragement.  But there is no reason you can't express your frustration within the limits of good taste.

Bard ... we are friends here. We have our ups and downs but the true score is many nations, many levels of scholastic input, many levels of Tolkien expertise ... and room for everybody.
We love Tolkien.
And you are most welcome here ...

In the book it's also Gimli most eager to enter Moria. Indeed, he is the only one not reluctant about that path. I find it very very strange that Gandalf would not be considering Durin's Bane. I mean, why was he so surprised that it was a Balrog? It was certainly something very powerful. That much he knew. I can understand that he would be surprised that a Balrog still existed, but he shouldn't have been surprised that there was a power to match him residing in Moria. 

Even stranger is the incredibly apathetic White Council witholding of action upon Durin's Bane. 

Bard,

No offense,

"So why on earth did Gandalf feel it necessary to take out Smaug?"

because Tolkien wrote his CHILDREN"S STORY without any deliberate connection to his other works ... get it ...1937 versus 1954 ... "Lord of The Rings" includes "hobbit and dragon stuff" that "The Hobbit" does not.
Why?
The Hobbit came first as a CHILDREN"S STORY not meant to be a work based on his other writings.
Why?
BECAUSE TOLKIEN WROTE IT THAT WAY!

So come on!  Get over it! Move on.

You have enough knowledge and writing skills to stop beating a dead horse ... let it go!

Bard,

Please which Appendices? The ones in The Lord of The Rings? (written years after The Hobbit")

The primary antagonist is the dragon ... but we have so many protagonists ... with all sorts of supportive antagonists and neutral protagonistic forces which are benign and still antagonistic to our main character. (I am speaking only of The Hobbit here)

Because Tolkien was so prolific there are many sources which can be reviewed ... so which Appendices please?

That too, at the time of the Hobbit was a very mysterious subject. The mines of Moria had been abandoned for centuries due to Durin's Bane. So no reports were to be had. Gandalf hears reports of the mysterious stronghold of Dol Guldur and expects the Lord of the Nazgul to be reeking havoc there. It wasn't until he discovers that the Necromancer was indeed Sauron himself manifesting once again that there was any reason to think that the disbanded orcs throughout middle-earth were doing anything else but hiding and biding their time. And to attempt to eradicate their sparse numbers and spread out tribes is like trying to stamp out too many roaches at once. They just scatter.

It wasn't until Gandalf learned that Sauron stirred once more and the orcs had their leader's influence back that the orcs were even considered a threat. So it wasn't until the time of The Hobbit that the orcs were any threat to anyone but random wayfarers and the like...

What say you?

P.S.  My 200th post!  I wish I'd prepared a speech....

Huan, please don't make a general statement like that without any proof to back it up. Bear actually wasn't even on-topic for most of the discussion. Are you the same person from the Bear account? It sounds like it. The fundamental questions from my last post still haven't been answered.

How long were the uruks of Mordor in Moria?

If they had been in Moria some time (which I suspect they had), why would the White Council not view Durin's Bane (just the creature in general, not necessarily a Balrog), whatever it was, as a likely ally of Sauron and an immediate threat to Rivendell and Lorien?

Remember to think from the perspective of the characters in the novels. They are not omniscient as the readers are, so if I was in the story and I saw that Moria was inhabited by servants of the Dark Lord, I would naturally assume that Durin's Bane was also under the control of Sauron. Doesn't anyone on this site think things through?

By the way, the argument that the Balrog hadn't been active outside of Moria is a weak one. Gandalf feared Smaug's involvement in the War of the Ring, despite the fact he showed no interest in anything other than treasure and was even commented on as becoming larger, hence decadent and plumper.

Also one question never answered is why Dain was never debriefed.