No Prince of Mirkwood, Istari are Maiar. They were in appearance of old men. As to how many Istari are there
Curumo aka Saruman Olórin aka Gandalf the Grey Aiwendil aka Ragast the Brown Pallando aka Morinehtar Alatar aka Rómestámo
They were called Wizards because of their magical abilities. Alatar and Pallando were maiar of the Vala Oromë and they were called the Blue Wizards, they were said to have been lost in the south, maybe even starting magical cults.
I hoped this helps.
__________________
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
The answer is hard to give, though personally I am inclined to think there were only 5 in whole Arda, the 5 that came to M-e. It is a complex topic and I strongly recommend you read THIS article
Well, your friend is correct in that Istari has been translated 'wizards' by Tolkien himself. The distinction is that this translation may be 'unhappy' in the sense that JRRT's wizards are quite distinct from the wizards or magicians of later legend. Istari may be more happily translated then as 'Those who know'
As for the number: according to Tolkien-published sources I think the answer would have to be five. Some might point out that according to an 'unpublished' text dated 1954 (published in Unfinished Tales) the number of the Order was unknown, but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, the chiefs were five.
Fighting 'unpublished fire' with unpublished fire however: in 1956 Tolkien referred to '... the missing two wizards (out of five)' in a letter. Or in 1957 (another letter): 'There are five wizards and that is just a unique part of history.'
Even later in (probably) 1972: 'The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information' (it's also said here that no names are recorded for the two wizards, and they were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor.
I tend to go with five
I also, in any case, tend to give more weight to Tolkien-published sources anyway, though some seem to consider the 1954 text to be an 'intended clarification'.
As we see Tolkien explained that the Blue Wizards had no names in the West of Middle-earth, though they were indeed called 'The Blue Wizards' (he gives the Elvish). JRRT does seem ready to give them Quenya names however, as he did for the other three more well known wizards too (Curumo, Olórin, Aiwendil).
The possibilities are: Morinehtar, Rómestámo, Róme(n)star, Alatar, Pallando
Tolkien appears to have ultimately 'noticed' that a note in which the names and functions (regarding the Wizards) seemed lost. It's quite possible that he was referring to the earlier text in which 'Alatar, Pallando' appear (the text published in Unfinished Tales), meaning it's possible he forgot those and went on to invent new names (these are all notably Quenya).
That's what I think happened anyway. But in any case the fact that more than one form exists for both of the Blue Wizards is not exactly the same as the 'relationship' of Q. Olórin to S. Mithrandir (Gandalf).
I didn't see the link (or indeed the post) by TM before I posted, but having read the article now I have to add that I think the meaning of 'Of this Order the number is unknown...' refers to the Heren Istarion 'Order of Wizards' who were sent to Middle-earth.
The article is well researched, but there is no substitute for the complete context of the actual essay (no matter which side opinions land on this tangent issue).
The Istari was a name given to the 5 Maiar spirits sent to Middle-earth. The Istari are Maiar, they are just bound to phisical forms. The Istari don't really form another race or whatever. We shouldn't refer to them as something seperate from Maiar. Thats all they are.
So the simple answer is that there were five, whose names have already been mentioned and as Galin pointed out Istari translates to 'Wizards'.
I'm interested - where did you find that quote from 1972 that starts with 'The other two are only known", Galin? I've never seen it before - has it been published somewhere, or is it from somewhere like Marquette?
According to Unfinished Tales the Istari where Mia athough the number of their order is unknowen only five went to middle earth where they are called wizards only three of the five Istari,s names are mentioned Gandalf the grey, Radagast the brown and Saruman the white. I do not know why the names and deeds of the other two are not mention but maybe one of Tolkiens writtings will turn up one day telling us.
Actually they mentioned in that book. They are Alatar and Pallando both Blue Wizards and both went with Saruman into the East and only Saruman came back. There was no word on the fate of the two Blues.
Tolkien had a few things to say about the Blue Wizards, depending on what source one is looking at. One essay (Unfinished Tales) on the Istari says: 'whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not known.' JRRT
And in UT as well...
Wilt thou learn the lore that was long secret of the Five that came from a far country? One only returned. Others never again under Men's dominion Middle-earth shall seek until Dagor Dagorath and the Doom cometh. How hast thou heard it: the hidden counsel of the Lord's of the West in the land of Aman? The long roads are lost that led tither, and to mortal Men Manwe speaks not. From the West-that-was a wind bore it to the sleeper's ear, in the silences under night-shadow, when news is brought from lands forgotten and lost ages over seas of years to the searching thought. Not all are forgotten by the Elder King. Sauron he saw a slow menace....
In a letter (Letters of JRRT) Tolkien said that he knew 'nothing clearly' about the other two, and: 'I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.' JRRT
In another passage published in The History of Middle-earth, Tolkien appears to think they had some success: 'They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.'JRRT (this note was somewhat hard to read in the original)
I have my problems with this last (late) note -- as JRRT here has these two wizards arriving 1,841 years before the end of the Second Age even, leaving roughly 2,841 years between the coming of the blue wizards to Middle-earth -- and the 'appearance' of the Istari in Middle-earth (as already published in The Lord of the Rings). If Tolkien himself had no problem with that idea, this was not the only late 'unpublished' text concerning the Istari in any case.
Sry for bumping but: The Istari are Maiar and Wizards, but the Maiar is not a race..their race is the Ainur race, the race of Sauron, theyre names in the Ainur is different, even Gothmog, the general or something of mordor is Ainur, Saruman is Ainur, and Sauron is ainur. And Sauron was Annatar for the Ainur.
YEs, they were all Maiar, but if you want to talk maiar Wraith, you are forgetting one very imortant one, Melian. Who definitely did not come in the form of an old man. And yes, they were minor Ainur.
__________________
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
The Istari was the name of five Maiar spirits (the lesser ORDER of the Ainur race, the Valar being the major) who were sent to Middle-earth to guide the peoples to war against Sauron, another maiar, yet he was turned into the serivce of Morgoth and never after recovered from his corruptions.
Other Maiar include Melian, Osse (servant to the Valar Ulmo), Gothmog - Lord of Balrogs, high captain of Angband who was slain by Ecthelion in the raid of Gondolin, other Balrogs, such as Durin's Bane who was slain by Gandalf, Eonwe the banner-bearer of Manwe - Lord of Arda, Ilmare the hand-maid of Varda - Queen of the Stars, Luthien was part-Maiar and part Elf, being the daughter of Melian.
Other possible Maiar may have came in the form of great horrific Orcs, perhaps Dragons could be Maiar, or at least the great Dragons. The Ents were spirits from beyond the world in their origin so probably contain starins of Maiar in their offspring, and indeed some of the olriginal Ents may still be alive in the Third Age.
And indeed there were many other spirits of the Ainur that perhaps did not take form, and others who dwelt in other places in Ea, away from Arda.
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
I agree with you, except for the head Balrog part: that Balrog is called Gothmog, but, we read it in the books, and we saw it in the movie, the orc guy who screamed "RELEASE THE PRISONERS!!" was also called Gothmog if im not mistaken. So if im correct and you too correct, than it turns out that a balrog and an orc have the same name.
Indeed Wraith, There are two Gothmog's. One is the Balrog-lord of the First Age, captain of Angband, and the other is the strange 'leader' (not 100% sure he is an orc in the books) captain of Minas Morgul not far off 7000 years later in in third Age.
Sauron often names things after his masters reign in the First Age. He calls the hollowed out scoop-like land before the Black Gate 'Udun' which was the name of Morgoth's super-fortress before the First Age began (also called Utumno). The name Gothmog means 'Voice of Morgoth' I think, and therefore Sauron also names one of his minions the 'Mouth of Sauron' (me!). Plus we have the two Gothmog's, and a few other instances I cannot remember at the moment.
Gothmog meaning 'Voice of Goth' is from a name-list written in the 1930s. It may have been superseded by Etymologies (itself an early text), or not.
Compare other entries from the same '30s name-list: Balrog is said to be an Orc-word (it is Sindarin), the Dark-elves are still the Ilkorindi (a term dropped from the legendarium), Eredlúmen 'Gloomy Mountains' appears (CJRT notes: '... and there is here a halfway stage, when Ered-Lómin (-lúmin) had become the name of the coastal range but did not yet have the significance of 'Echoing').
Of course the whole list does not reflect dropped or certainly superseded ideas, or forms, but the point is we are generally swimming in fairly early waters here. According to Etymologies, Gothmog was said to hail from *Gothombauk- from a base MBAW- 'compel, force, subject, oppress.', and GOS-, GOTH- 'dread'.
Unfortunately, the new list of words and names published in Parma Eldalamberon 17 does not include Gothmog, which would have given us a later version. PE 17 gives a 'new' version of the meaning of Lúthien for example (compared to the older Etymologies), so one never knows.
Not that I've run across yet. I'm waiting for VT 50 to be published so that I can buy a collected version, which means I still lack some of the latest issues in the 40s.
Not that there will necessarily be anything more about Gothmog to come, of course, but I still 'only' have 40 something issues.
I researced E.L.F..and came up with some pretty interesting results. There is E.L.F. the Eye, Lips, and Face beauty needs website. There is the Earth Liberation Front. The Endangered Language Fund....and the Elvish Linquistic Fellowship. It may be a wild guess on my part....but it may be the latter that ArwenLegolas may have been alluding to?
I have now updated my Vinyar Tengwar collection, and not that I had reason to suspect anything new concerning Gothmog would be waiting in these latest issues, in any event, no I haven't seen anything new so far about the name (technically I'm not done reading all the information and notes).
Pengolodh was another name for Pengolod, if I remember. He was an Elf sage in Eressea who recounted the Ainulindale and tales of early Arda to Aelfwine, was it? Using some of Rumil's work?
Pengoloð or Pengolodh or Pengoloth 'teaching sage' (Words, Phrases, and Passages) Spellings vary, but the -dh- at the end represents a voiced -th- sound.
Pengolodh was a great chronicler as MOS noted, and very renowned. According to Quendi And Eldar (1959-60) he was born the son of a Noldo and a Sinda, was a sage in Gondolin, escaped to the Havens of Sirion, and sailed to Eressea in the Second Age.
His history is a bit different according to a later work however -- he is an Exile rather, according to Author's note 3 to Eldarinwe Leperi are Notessi, and as the Vinyar Tengwar editors also note, he would then have no Sindarin blood. This information is recent enough that some websites today might not yet note it.
As for the lore or texts he was connected to, generally the subject of authorship and transmission is part of an intended Tolkien project of mine. There are a few websites that go into this, but I want to first check the external history for myself, from volume 1 thru 12 of The History of Middle-Earth series, and a bit 'beyond' in certain linguistic journals.
However this might take a while (assuming I get around to it anytime soon)
So I'll stay silent on that one for now, although obviously there are plenty of other people here who can fill us in on Pengolodh while I plant new shrubs and whatever!
Which version holds more weight, Galin? Pengolodh being a Noldo/Sinda or an Exiled Noldo? And he definitely was a sage of Gondolin who removed to Eressea after the War of Wrath? Or later in the Second Age?
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Well the biographical sketch of Pengolodh in Quendi and Eldar is a bit more detailed, Glorfindel, but the note published in VT 48 is later. Tolkien specifically revising his ideas? Did he forget Q&E? Who knows.
The differences: A) as noted already, in the later version Pengolodh was an Exile. B) he was said to have learned something of Dwarvish in its archaic form as used in the habitations of the Dwarves in Ered Lindon -- whereas Q&E states that he gained his knowledge of Dwarvish from the Dwarves of Moria in the Second Age.
Hmm
Unless I missed something, or haven't run across it yet (possible, as I haven't read all of VT 48 so far) the notion that Pengolodh returned to Eressea in the Scond Age is not specifically contradicted, at least, in the later text.
-- Edited by Galin on Wednesday 19th of August 2009 03:19:36 PM
I wrote: '(...) generally the subject of authorship and transmission is part of an intended Tolkien project of mine. There are a few websites that go into this, but I want to first check the external history for myself, ...'
I began this project, but there is an external change with respect to transmission that is muddying up the waters a bit.
Sometime in the late 1950s Tolkien was seemingly both dropping Elfwine (the Anglo-Saxon mariner) and still considering him. I think ultimately he was dropped from the scenario -- although the question is difficult to answer with authority, today I lean that way anyway.
Instead of Elfwine bringing the Elvish stories into the 'modern world' from Eressea ('modern' compared to Middle-earth history but still well in our past of course), the later idea seems to be that The Silmarillion is not an Eldarin work but a Mannish work, a compilation, probably made in Numenor.
For instance, back in the late 1930s, a preamble to Silmarillion reveals that: 'These histories were written by Pengolod the Wise of Gondolin, and in their making he much used the writings of Rumil the sage of Valinor concerning other matters than the wars of Beleriand' And of course, Elfwine translates the work, and a modern translator puts his work into modern English.
But if Elfwine is out and Numenor in, so to speak, we don't necessarily have Tolkien updating his accounts with respect to authorship and tradition. For another example, from The Annals of Aman: 'Here begin the Annals of Aman, which Rumil made, and speak of the coming of the Valar to Arda.' At this point the 'Elfwine transmission' is still in play.
However in a typescript of Annals of Aman enters the Numenorean transmission. Rumil still makes the Annals, but: 'Here begin the 'Annals of Aman'. Rumil made them in the Elder Days, and they were held in memory by the Exiles. Those parts which we learned and remembered were thus set down in Numenor before the Shadow fell upon it.'
I have (sort of) stopped for now. Probably I'll take up the project again when I read the last two or three volumes of The history of Middle-Earth again, that way I can note any and all references on the way, while I'm enjoying the tales again.
Not that anyone cares... but there it is
I found a source on line that takes up the question, but although well researched, to my mind it basically represents a 'mix' of conceptions.
I have to admit, I wouldn't have your patience when it comes to that kind of thing, Galin. Scratching around among all the notes, developing theories which you will never know (I assume) whether they'll be absolutely correct or not.
As far as I was aware, the Silmarillion was supposedly a compilation made by Bilbo in Rivendell using Elvish lore. Or are you trying to find out exactly who was the author of the lore Bilbo was using?
Right MOS, trying to get a more detailed picture of various texts, like Elendil as author of the Akallabeth, for instance, or Dirhaval and The Tale of the Children of Hurin.
Or an interesting bit of detail like this maybe:
'... but the lore of the Eldar did not depend on perishable records, being stored in the vast houses of their minds (*23). When the Eldar made records in written form, even those that to us would seem voluminous, they did only summarise, as it were, for the use of others whose lore was maybe in other fields of knowledge, (*24) matters which were kept forever undimmed in intricate detail in their minds.'
Note 24: 'And as some insurance against their own death. For books were made only in strong places at a time when death in battle was likely to befall any of the Eldar, but it was not yet believed that Morgoth could ever capture or destroy their fortresses.'
JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor
This does not tell me specifically who wrote what, but I consider it an interesting related bit concerning records.
If we put Tolkien's later view into play, the lore Bilbo used in Rivendell need not always be Elvish in authorship specifically, but arguably written in Elvish in any case.
Although obviously the living sources in Imladris who were Elves... are Elvish
How were the tales passed on to Aragorn? And how would he pass them on to his son. What tales were lost as the Eldar left the world? Wasn't Elrond also known as the lore master...a gift he passed to Arwen maybe? When Elfwine sinks into Tolkien's oblivion who does Tolkien replace him with. "Not that anyone cares... but there it is." Really old chum we do care what your opinion and scholarship reveals...truly!
-- Edited by Bear on Thursday 19th of November 2009 04:23:20 AM
__________________
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
Why thank you master Bear! Here's one I think I have (almost!) settled on:
Dirhaval of the Havens made The Tale of the Children of Hurin, and he called it Narn i Chin Hurin -- noting that among the Elves, narn signified a tale that is told in verse to be spoken and not sung. It was made in the days of Earendil long ago, the longest of all the lays now remembered.
Dirhaval came of the House of Hador, and dwelling at the Havens of Sirion he gathered there all the tidings and lore that he could. This lay was all that he ever made, but it was prized by the Eldar and written in Grey-elven, in which Dirhaval had great skill. He used a mode of Elvish verse which was of old proper to the Narn.
____________________
External blather: this much is from Elfwine and Dirhaval! and so in this text Elfwine goes on to say that he translated the work into prose, having help from Elves, and also on some matters he made notes 'according to such lore as I found in Eressea'.
OK I just complained that one source on line was a mix and here I am willing to keep the 'old' mixed with the new. This is based on author's note 17 to The Shibboleth of Feanor, where it is said that The Silmarillion, probably a compilation made in Numenor: 'which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which 'The Children of Hurin' was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age'
So again, if Elfwine is out, is Dirhaval? Tolkien doesn't mention him by name here obviously, but the brief description of when this work was composed lines up with the earlier history, and Dirhaval being a Man is certainly no problem.
Tolkien actually wrote part of this tale in verse (albeit very early in life compared to this note), and since within the Numenorean transmission he still referred to the work as Narn i-Chin Hurin, I very much doubt he had dropped the idea that it was written originally in verse, and so the change would be that Elfwine the Anglo-Saxon did not render it into prose, but someone else.
I won't necessarily have so much detail to work with concerning other texts, but IMO this is one mix that works well enough, but technically, as MOS points out, here I can only guess that the earlier details would have been retained; and in any event, Tolkien was an admitted world class niggler.
True, why not keep Dirhaval specifically if nothing later conflicts with the idea. I can see that, but on the other hand, if I were the author of some website, I think it would be nice to note what JRRT actually wrote as well, compared to a sort of 'silent textual merging'.
Anyway, I say almost above because I still wonder if there is not some later mention of Dirhaval I am missing! but so far I can't recall one.
-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 19th of November 2009 03:04:02 PM
