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Topic: Lost history and speculative fun

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Date: Feb 16, 2014
RE: Lost history and speculative fun

I tried to address JD7's post and this is what I was able to come up with.

'Gandalf came from the libraries of Minas Tirith confirming the lore of Isildur's Bane. He tested it in the Hearth at Bag End..."...that only fire can tell...etc." From there he said: "keep it secret, keep it safe" and made is way directly to Orthanc?
Did he not meet with anyone on the road? '

At the Council of Elrond Gandalf tells that at the end of June, while still in the Shire, he got messages of war and defeat in Gondor, and seeking further news he journeyed along the Greenway. Not far from Bree he met Radagast who delivered Saruman's offer of help. Gandalf then stopped only at Bree, to leave a message to be sent to Frodo by Barliman; and after that went straight to Isengard.

'He [Gandalf] tells Frodo to meet him at the "Inn of the Prancing Pony". How did Aragorn know to meet the Hobbits there when Gandalf was delayed? He must of met up with him at least once before riding to Orthanc. '

Gandalf didn't have a chance to meet Aragorn before leaving for Orthanc.

'Remember Gandalf was gone from the Shire for years and in that time he and Aragorn hunted for Gollum and caught him. He left Gollum with the Elves. From there Aragorn bee lines to the Inn of the Prancing pony or does he report back to the border watch of his Dunadain brothers? Along the way would he not know where to find Elves for information? '

So far this is how events look to me. Aragorn and Gandalf hunt for Gollum for 8 years (at intervals), starting 3009. Gandalf finally abandons the hunt, thinking of an alternative way of getting the info on the Ring. He goes to the Minas Tirith's library and reads the scroll made by Isildur. He leaves MT with the idea of grilling the Ring, but on his way gets a message that Aragorn has captured Gollum and is bringing him to Mirkwood. So Gandalf changes his course and also goes to Mirkwood.

I am somewhat confused with the chronology. In Appendix B, the capture of Gollum by Aragorn is in the entry under 3017; yet in Unfinished Tales it is said that Aragorn takes Gollum on February 1st, and from the subsequent account it looks that it has to be 3018.
It looks this way:
Feb 1, 3018 (?) - Gollum is taken by Aragorn
March 21 - Aragorn arrives at Mirkwood
March 23 - Gandalf comes to Mirkwood
March 29 - Aragorn and Gandalf go back west (Aragorn tells the hobbits that he came back with Gandalf in spring)
April 12 - Gandalf arrives at Hobbiton and spends more than two months there; heats up the Ring.
May 1 - Gandalf and Aragorn meet for the last time (at Sarn Ford) before seeing each other at Rivendell much later.

Aragorn then goes on a journey of his own, knowing that Gandalf is with the hobbits. When he returns, he gets news from Gildor's Elves that Frodo left his home, Gandalf is missing, and Black Riders seen. Then Aragorn keeps watch on the East Road near Bree. Aragorn is not with other Dunedain at the time of assault by the Nazgul.

Gildor indeed, despite expressing little involvement in the affairs of other races, send messages as far and wide as possible, and all those with the power for good are on the watch. It does seem that he and his company could be those mentioned by Glorfindel as sending word to Elrond about Frodo and company, but interestingly the hobbits are characterized in that message as being astray bearing a great burden without guidance! Nothing directly is mentioned in the conversation of Frodo and Gildor about the 'burden' (unlike in an earlier draft), and the hobbits meet no other Elves, so perhaps Gildor has more insight than he reveals to Frodo (and us).


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Lórellinë

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'But in any event it is here where High Elves seems to include the Sindar...

... which notion is arguably supported by Tolkien's implication that the name Elbereth is what revealed these Elves as 'High' to Frodo, which is not only Sindarin but would seem to be a name the Sindar would use for Varda [again Elbereth had been 'Noldorin' in the old linguistic scenario].'

I am not sure, Galin, if I really understood your statement. They indeed sing in Sindarin; in The Road Goes Ever On it is said, 'The language is Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves'. Looks to me like 'High Elves' are contrasted to Sindar here.

But was it only the name of Elbereth, and not by any means the peculiarities of the language, that made Frodo conclude he and his company were seeing High Elves? And by the Sindarin name of Elbereth alone it was not possible to tell Sindar from Noldor apparently. So maybe Frodo wasn't able to distinguish them - is that what you meant by High Elves including Sindar? Yet maybe the very fact that the Valie's name was mentioned at all told Frodo that the Elves were Exiles? Why would Sindar (or others) even talk of her?..

And your other point (if I got it right) is that even if these Elves are High Elves it does not automatically mean they cannot be from Lindon. I agree with this - and the ref from The Road Goes Ever On supports it. Maybe indeed other kinds (like Nandor you mention) but not High Elves from Lindon had a habit of visiting the Shire, otherwise why the surprise? And so, encountering High Elves, Frodo would not be able to tell where they were from. Seems the hobbits know little about who lives in the Havens and probably somewhat more about High Elves of Rivendell, from Bilbo. Yes it is getting thin!


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'I am not sure, Galin, if I really understood your statement. They indeed sing in Sindarin; in The Road Goes Ever On it is said, 'The language is Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves'. Looks to me like 'High Elves' are contrasted to Sindar here.'

Yes, in RGEO Tolkien is using 'High Elves' to refer to the Noldor. My reference was to Appendix B, where High Elves seems to include the Sindar.


'But was it only the name of Elbereth, and not by any means the peculiarities of the language, that made Frodo conclude he and his company were seeing High Elves?'

I think that's the suggestion, yes, as Frodo says: 'These are High-Elves! They spoke the name of Elbereth!'

'And by the Sindarin name of Elbereth alone it was not possible to tell Sindar from Noldor apparently.'

I think the original intention was that the form Elbereth distinguished 'High Elves' [as in Noldor] from the Ilkorin Elves of Middle-earth.

At the time Tolkien wrote this identification, it seems [unless I've missed something here] possible that Elbereth was the Noldorin name for Varda, thus the name was the indentifying factor, and there might have been another form in Ilkorin. In any case, at the time Tolkien wrote this statement there was no Sindarin, and the High Elves of Middle-earth, or Noldor, spoke Noldorin. Christopher Tolkien notes (stem BARATH-)

'The application of the name Elbereth to Varda seems to have arisen in the hymn of the Elves to the Goddess in the original second chapter (Three is Company) of The Lord of the Rings, written in early 1938 (...). Concomitant with this the Ilkorin names Elbereth (of different meaning) and Elboron were removed from the original entries BER and BOR. These were the names of Dior's sons in...'

We had Quenya Elentari, Varda -- Noldorin Elbereth -- Telerin Baradis (and Ilkorin Elbereth, where bereth meant 'valor', was struck out). Of course, by the end of The Lord of the Rings Tolkien had changed the languages and their histories, so that Sindarin arises and both the Exiles and the Sindar speak Grey-elven.

Perhaps Frodo could be informed by Elbereth because the Elves of Mirkwood (for example from Bilbo's tales) might not use 'Elbereth' specifically. I was somewhat satisfied with this until I remembered Frodo's general reference here to the numbers of High Elves -- and this becomes a bit 'problematic' if he 'really' meant High Elves as in Eldar [Noldor and Sindar], before he was informed that they were Noldor in any event.

'Yet maybe the very fact that the Valie's name was mentioned at all told Frodo that the Elves were Exiles? Why would Sindar (or others) even talk of her?'

I couldn't find (yet?) anything actually attested that the Noldor were so notable in their reverence for Varda that the use of this name (as Frodo heard it) would be a revelation of High Elven [as in Noldor] status.

 

And in note 21 to The Shibboleth of Feanor (thus relatively late if not published by JRRT himself), it's noted that the Sindar were instructed by Orome concerning the eminence of Manwe and Varda, and the Sindar called them Aran Einior and Elbereth, which names were adopted by the Noldor.



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It has just occurred to me that the words

"We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas"

may also have informed Frodo (who is said to understand the song as it shaped itself in his mind into words despite being sung in Sindarin/Noldorin) that the singing Elves were Exiles (=High Elves); not only the name of Elbereth, although he seems clearly impressed by it.

Anyway, Frodo indeed says of High Elves (whether or not Sindar are included in that number), "...Not many now remain in Middle-earth, east of the Great Sea..."; but how many is 'not many'? When the wearers of the Three departed over the Sea, "With them went many Elves of the High Kindred who would no longer stay in Middle-earth". Many (apparently not all) - perhaps a sizable portion of them - and they can fit aboard just one ship; how big the ship was is not told but it is not described as particularly large. So maybe indeed not that many Eldar (and Noldor among them) were still there at the end of the Third age.

It is another question why they decided to leave at that moment (with the ring-wearers) - did they already feel signs of fading?.. A matter for another post probably.


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Lórellinë

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Well, I think those lines could be interpreted to fall in line with Exiled Noldor, probably more easily with the Exiles too, but not necessarily with respect to certainty; and to me the clear implication to the reader is that the name Elbereth is what informed Frodo.

One wonders if Tolkien just forgot to change this, or if he decided that High-Elves could mean Eldar here, and that 'not many' could be true enough compared to the Silvan Elves and the Avari [in The Lord of the Rings the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien were not Eldar, thus not High Elves). We know that 'some' High Elves remained after Elrond sailed, but some and many are nice and vague.

 

It works well enough for me to compare the Eldar to the Non-Eldarin Elves, with respect to not many; but again if we see Frodo's comparative amazement to other Elves wandering in the Shire, and we know there were High Elves in Lindon according to Appendix A, and we take High Elves to refer to the Eldar, we must think Green Elves or something... not impossible again, but not exactly noted anywhere in The Lord of the Rings itself. 

It's interesting that Tolkien also retains Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod too, after yet another revision. 'Inglorion', although it could mean different things, most likely means 'son, descendant of' Inglor.

And when this was written Finrod was Finarfin really, and Inglor Felagund was Finrod!



-- Edited by Galin on Tuesday 18th of February 2014 11:30:21 AM

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"...but again if we see Frodo's comparative amazement to other Elves wandering in the Shire, and we know there were High Elves in Lindon according to Appendix A, and we take High Elves to refer to the Eldar, we must think Green Elves or something... not impossible again, but not exactly noted anywhere in The Lord of the Rings itself. "

The matter seems to get ever more unclear, since although Frodo is surprised to see the High Elves (he thinks they rarely visit the Shire, apparently unlike other Elves), these Elves told Frodo: "We have seen you often before with Bilbo, though you may not have seen us". So they visited the Shire too, and likely often. One wonders whether High Elves were more secretive compared to other kinds of Elves, and were not noticed as easily?

And as to where Gildor was from, he (as I think have been referenced before) says: "We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell". I was initially thinking that this meant "some of our kindred - as opposed to us ourselves; we are not from Rivendell but our kin lives there". Yet I am now inclined to think that the meaning is "most of our kindred lives over the Sea, but some of our kinsfolk, including us, live still in Rivendell - as opposed to Tol Eressea for example".

"It's interesting that Tolkien also retains Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod too, after yet another revision. 'Inglorion', although it could mean different things, most likely means 'son, descendant of' Inglor.

And when this was written Finrod was Finarfin really, and Inglor Felagund was Finrod!"

Indeed this is interesting. If that was not an overlook, then are we supposed to assume these were survivors of the sack of Nargothrond? I think by the time of that revision it was 'decided' that Finrod had no offspring, in his first life at least?

On a quite different note I am still wondering if there is more information on the timing of Gollum's capture by Aragorn - was it 3017, or 3018?..


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Lórellinë

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According to the Appedices of LOTR Gollum was captured by Aragorn in 3017 and brought to Mirkwood 3017.



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That is exactly what perplexes me. If Aragorn took Gollum on Feb 1, 3017, then it means that Gandalf, who arrived at Mirkwood on March 23 (still 3017?) was questioning him for more than a year, even knowing how to test the Ring, and understanding that this should not be delayed in any way? Or did it take Aragorn more than a year to get to Mirkwood with Gollum?

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I'm sure he didn't stay in Mirkwood long. When Gollum escaped in the summer (some time)....Gandalf was off doing other things. Before he went straight to warning Frodo there were others that he wished to confide in...mainly the White Council and since they were all in their respective homes he had to make a tour of it, hitting every Elven HQ along the way. Lorien, probably to see if Aragorn had passed that way to see his main squeeze, then off to Rivendell via the High Pass of the Misty Mountains (or maybe not, due to the increased Orc traffic there of late). If he indeed went the long way around it would have taken him sometime to make it to Sarn Ford where it is said that he met Aragorn before reaching the Shire in April 3018. A journey of a couple of months.

He most likely did not want to involve Saruman until he tested the Rings validity for himself in the hearth at Bag End, since Saruman was keenly interested in the Ring and Gandalf was wary of his motives. Besides, Saruman often belittled Gandalf's dealings with the Hobbits as he did with his other endeavors, so perhaps Gandalf just decided to wait before telling the boss what he had found out. He wanted to make sure he had all his facts straight and after he was assured that the One Ring was found he sought, at last, Saruman's advice...which turned out to be a bad idea.

I believe it only took Aragorn a few weeks to get from Dagorlad to Northern Mirkwood. I think he delivered Gollum March 21st, 3017.


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It was silly of me to ask if Aragorn's journey took more than a year. In Unfinished Tales ('The Hunt for the Ring'), at least, it is said that he accomplished it in 50 days.

As to Gandalf, he came to Mirkwood two days after Aragorn and Gollum, and left it less than a week after, so also he didn't stay there long. Even though the year is not mentioned, there is an impression of urgency:
"Gandalf arrived two days later [March 23], and left on 29th of March early in the morning. After the Carrock he had a horse, but he had the High Pass in the mountains to cross. He had a fresh horse at Rivendell, and making the greatest speed he could he reached Hobbiton late on the 12th of April, after a journey of nearly eight hundred miles" (note 6). All this doesn't seem to agree with your account of Gandalf's journey, JD7. Neither does it agree with Appendix B, except for the date of Gandalf's arrival at Hobbiton (April 12, 3018 - the last meeting of him with Aragorn happened later, on May 1), but here is a note by Christopher Tolkien concerning 'The Hunt for the Ring' and some other related manuscripts:
"They were written after the publication of 'The Lord of the Rings', for there are references to the pagination of the printed text; but they differ in the dates they give for certain events from those in the Tale of Years in the Appendix B. The explanation is clearly that they were written after the publication of the first volume but before that of the third, containing the Appendices".

But unlike 'The Hunt for the Ring' and notes to it, The Tale of Years is not very detailed in the matter of dates, nor are the accounts given by Gandalf and Aragorn. Maybe I missed something; or should we assume that the capture of Gollum by Aragorn happened in 3017 but close to the end of that year?

And given all that urgency and speed with which Gandalf came to Hobbiton, why is he then stays there for more than two months, without trying to convince Frodo to leave with the Ring as soon as possible? This might have been discussed before though, but I haven't come across that.

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There are big gaps in the Appendices of LOTR but we can start with what is actually confirmed within those Appendices (I have an inclination to support LOTR's appendices as law when it comes to these types of speculations).
There are also the accounts recorded in Unfinished Tales, so to make up a "extended edition" of the appendices I will compile what dates we have using LOTR's appendices and the notes of Unfinished Tales to narrow the gaps in time concerning the Hunt for the Ring/Gollum and Gandalf/Aragorn's whereabouts on ME at certain intervals:

THIRD AGE....

3009- Gandalf and Aragorn renew their hunt for Gollum at intervals during the next eight years, searching in the vales of Anduin, Mirkwood, and Rhovanion to the confines of Mordor. At some time during these years Gollum himself ventured into Mordor, and was captured by Sauron. Elrond sends for Arwen, and she returns to Imladris; the Mountains and all lands eastward are becoming dangerous. (LOTR)

(Late January- early February) 3017- Gollum is released from Mordor. He is taken by Aragorn in the Dead Marshes, and brought to Thranduil in Mirkwood. Gandalf visits Minas Tirith and reads the scroll of Isildur. (LOTR)

March 21st 3017- Aragorn arrives in Northern Mirkwood with Gollum...."The whole journey, on foot, was not much short of nine hundred miles, and this Aragorn accomplished with weariness in fifty days, reaching Thraduil on the twenty-first of March."--Author's note (UT)

March 23rd 3017- Gandalf arrives in Mirkwood to question Gollum (UT) note 6)
March 29th 3017- Gandalf departs from Mirkwood (UT) note 6)
April 12th 3018- Gandalf arrives in Hobbiton (LOTR)
"after a journey of 800 miles"--(UT)
Note: It takes Boromir 3 months to make the 110 day journey from Minas Tirith (July 4th) to Rivendell (October 24th -25th) believe it or not; that journey is also around 800 miles. Although Boromir did it on flat land and not in any particular haste. Gandalf had to deal with the "High Pass" which would have taken a considerable amount of time (keep in mind this is done without Shadofax). Then as soon as he passed Rivendell the ride would have been much faster. In other words: there is no way Gandalf could have made the Journey from Mirkwood to The Shire in 14 or so days!!!! So yes...to confirm the timetable:

March 29th 3017-Gandalf leaves Mirkwood (UT)
April 12th 3018- Gandalf reaches Hobbiton (LOTR)
Gandalf had these things to slow him down: Mirkwood to the Carrock on foot (where he acquires a horse), The High Pass, and Stopping in Rivendell (fresh horse).

I used the official Map that came with my copy of LOTR 50th anniversary edition, to scale the distances.  If anyone could come up with a day to day travel pacing for Boromir that would be great. I say Boromir because his journey was on flat ground, using roads on horseback which is the most consistent pace considering what Aragorn and Gandalf had to deal with.  Meanwhile, I will be trying to calculate the pace myself....keep in mind, however that no one drives a horse at a full gallop for more than a few miles at a time.  The pace would most likely be an even trot (10mph) or so.  A gallop is about 25-30mph




 

 



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Don't forget, Boromir lost his horse somewhere on his journey...

From what I recall about pioneers, cowboys, Caesar's army, etc. somewhere between 20 miles per day might be reasonable. That'd be close (I think) to an average between a slow moving conestoga wagon and quick marching soldiers.



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Not only did Boromir lose his horse, he didn't even know where he was going. He had to find the place (Rivendell), so no surprise it took him 3 months to get there.

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I agree Laurelin. I remember reading that they could do about 20-25 miles a day. We can safely assume that is correct. Did Boromir lose his horse? Interesting well then that would make a small difference depending how long he had no horse. And so did Boromir also just get lucky in finding Rivendell or did he get help? Surely Minas Tirith had some maps or something since the days of the Last Alliance. Interesting.


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"...long have I wandered by roads forgotten, seeking the house of Elrond, of which many have heard, but few knew where it lay". That's Boromir's report to the Council of Elrond. Whether Boromir had maps is not clear, but even if yes, they may have been not all that helpful.

And I don't know if it is just me, but seemingly every time I read that phrase of Gildor's (this time for the Book Club purpose), I see a different meaning in it, and cannot agree with my previous conclusions anymore. "...and we are now only tarrying here [in Middle-earth] a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell". Does that mean that 'we are tarrying here a while, and are restless - wherever we live - but some kinsfolk are still content to stay in Middle-earth, and in Rivendell at that'. Which interpretation still neither confirms nor rules out Rivendell as Gildor's abode.


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As for Boromir: I don't know why I passed that over so easily. "...of which many have heard, but few knew where it lay" (Speaking of Rivendell). Perhaps he meant those he would ask about it's location were Men, who were probably commoners and weren't savoy of things like Wizards and Elves. I don't think that Elves were abroad and therefore sharing maps and locations...they were quite exclusive. I dunno.

As for Gildor: That one is tricksy and would take a lot more digging but I think we narrowed it down to a few well-honed guesses, thanks to letting the imagination gel with Tolkien's unsaid nature.....to be continued...



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Sunday 2nd of March 2014 08:47:21 AM

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It is mentioned that the hobbits with Strider were able to cover 20 miles in one day, on foot. Then, is it really impossible to imagine Gandalf covering ~53 miles (85 km) a day on average? About that much of a speed would be needed to accomplish a journey of 800 miles (1287 km; just for my ref) during the interval from March 29 morning to April 12 evening. (Good at least the time measures need no conversion).


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Does anyone know if Ents lived in other places in ME? I know the Entwives disappeared into thin air, but there didn't seem to be Ents anywhere but Fangorn.



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Here may be a hint Laurelin ...

  "Little of all this, of course, reached the ears of ordinary hobbits. But even the deafest and most stay-at-home began to hear queer tales; and those whose business took them to the borders saw strange things. The conversation in The Green Dragon at Bywater, one evening in the spring of Frodo's fiftieth year, showed that even in the comfortable heart of the Shire rumours had been heard, though most hobbits still laughed at them.
  Sam Gamgee was sitting in one corner near the fire, and opposite him was Ted Sandyman, the miller's son; and there were various other rustic hobbits listening to their talk.
  'Queer things you do hear these days, to be sure,' said Sam.
  'Ah,' said Ted, 'you do, if you listen. But I can hear fireside-tales and children's stories at home, if I want to.'
  'No doubt you can,' retorted Sam, 'and I daresay there's more truth in some of them than you reckon. Who invented the stories anyway? Take dragons now.'
  'No thank'ee,' said Ted, 'I won't. I heard tell of them when I was a youngster, but there's no call to believe in them now. There's only one Dragon in Bywater, and that's Green,' he said, getting a general laugh.
  'All right,' said Sam, laughing with the rest. 'But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.'
  'Who's they?'
  'My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the Northfarthing for the hunting. He saw one.'
  'Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal's always saying he's seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain't there.'
  'But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking - walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.'
  'Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not.'
  'But this one was walking, I tell you; and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors.'
   'Then Hal can't have seen one,' said Ted. There was some laughing and clapping: the audience seemed to think that Ted had scored a point.
  'All the same,' said Sam, 'you can't deny that others besides our Halfast have seen queer folk crossing the Shire - crossing it, mind you: there are more that are turned back at the borders."
(The Lord Of The Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter II ~ "The Shadow of the Past", pgs 44-45)

Maybe it was Ents or Ent-Wives on the North Moor?

I also found a an interesting read in an entry in the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, Scholarship and Critical Assessment,(Michael D.C. Drout editor)  titled "Ents" by Matthew Dickerson. Not only does he reference what appears in Appendix F in "The Return of The King" but also adds Yavanna's plea for tree guardians in the Silmarillion.
One really interesting reveal in this article points out in Tolkien's early concepts for "The Lord Of The Rings" the Giant Treebeard was the hostile being responsible for Gandalf's imprisonment and his later connection that Trolls were counterfeits made in mockery of Ents.
As to your specific question of "Does anyone know if Ents lived in other places in ME?" Dickerson writes;
"By the end of the Third Age, Ents survive only in Fangorn Forest, also called Entwood, a remnant at the edge of Rohan of the One Wood that once extended across all of Middle-earth ... As a result of their dwindling population and dwindling role, the Ents are largely forgotten (and unseen) in Middle-earth."

There are other interesting entries in the Encyclopedia by Dickerson focusing on Treebeard (Fangorn) himself, and Tolkien's use of Trees as mythic symbols and the specific symbolic significance attached to Ents and Trees. He includes reference to Tolkien's works on Germanic, Norse, and Scandinavian myth where such figures as Yggdrasil, the "World Ash" that is the pillar of the world in ancient Scandinavian mythology and reference to, (as late as the 19th century), "warden trees" that were venerated in areas of Germany and Scandinavia, considered to be guardians and bringers of luck, and offerings were sometimes made to them.

It seems that trees and their guardians are an important part of Tolkien's mythos and Ents existed wherever trees did in Arda at the beginning of the world

I hope this helps ... seems once upon a time Ents were everywhere.



-- Edited by Bear on Saturday 17th of May 2014 04:04:35 AM

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Ents, as Shepherds of the Trees, are mentioned in The Silmarillion. When Beren, Dior, and Green-elves of Ossiriand assailed the Dwarves returning from Menegroth with the Nauglamir, some Dwarves escaped; but as they "climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence... came never one to climb the high passes to their homes".

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: May 17, 2014

Yes the injection of Ents into the Silmarillion hails in part from Christopher Tolkien, based upon a letter from JRR Tolkien of course. Note also Treebeard's song in The Lord of the Rings with respect to the place-names.

 

I don't think Hal saw an Ent or an Entwife in the Shire, unless he's got the size notably wrong. Ents are not nearly as tall as full grown Elm trees, nor their strides so long (Tolkien actually described the length of an ent-stride). Of course one can say these stories get exaggerated anyway, but to my mind 'trees' find their way into Sam's description due to the being in question being so tall...

... and then trees get comically wound into the conversation through Sam and Ted. I note that later on in the tale, the talk of 'giants' is mentioned, although admittedly even a fourteen foot ent would be a giant to a Man and a Hobbit. But again, Elm trees are much taller (50 to 100 feet). In any case, I'm not sure the reader can tell if the being in question was anything 'like' a tree outside of size, even if Tolkien would ultimately go on to invent Ents.

 

Externally  the conversation in the dragon was imagined well before Tolkien invented Ents and Entwives as we know them. Much closer to the intial writing of this conversation Tolkien imagined giants of some sort, and possibly a kind of giant that resembled a tree too; but I note that when the hostile 'giant Treebeard' was imagined early on, he was very much taller than an Ent.

Strangely (if I recall correctly) when Tolkien finally landed on the chapter when Ents first appeared Treebeard was imagined as 'only' ten feet tall! The earlier hostile Treebeard was absolutely huge however, as was his entire forest at one point.



-- Edited by Galin on Saturday 17th of May 2014 08:42:15 PM

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Thanks to all three of you. I guess I had meant in LOTR era of ME. I remembered that they started out everywhere as Lorelline stated. Part of what made me wonder is the Old Forest. There weren't any Ents there as we think of Engs, but the trees sure acted like Huorns and I had the thought that maybe where there are Huorns there are Ents. But, perhaps Tom Bombadil acted as their "shepherd".

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Laurelin,
That idea that maybe Old Man Willow was a Huorn seems pretty solid. And certainly, at least at sometime, there were Ents in the Old Forest (and as this is a piece of speculative fun ...it can be said without being blasted that it couldn't be) Tom Bombadil as a tree shepherd, in my mind, seems a pretty good speculation. Maybe Tom kept contact with some of the Ents that had gone "sleepy". And we might speculate that getting Tom together with Treebeard might give some leads as to finding the Ent-wives ... just speculating of course ...wink



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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Date: May 21, 2014
That was a good one Bear,

I'd like to see Treebeard and Tom Bombadil unite. Their combined knowledge of trees and mastery would indeed uncover some of the trail. I fancy that they would find a glade somewhere where all of the Entwives had gone and as you stated "Gone Sleepy". And why couldn't that be the Old Forest? Although Tom would know for sure if the Entwives were around. What if the Entwives meant to continue to the sea but were beaten back by the Hobbits. I guess the imagination can go wild here for sure....

At one point I had wondered if the Entwives made their way into the gardens of Isengard only to be chopped down and destroyed by the Fires of Saruman when Orthanc was changed into an industrial place but that doesn't seem so likely now. That was too close to Fangorn for Treebeard NOT to know about their presence.

I'll just leave it there. Interesting posts everyone.

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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So, a new question pops up. What happened to Entwives?

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Since either this, or a closely related question was already asked of Tolkien when LOTR was just at the proof reading stage, I thought this might be a 'popular' question. Indeed it has been previously discussed, for example here:

tolkienforums.activeboard.com/t7199667/entwives-in-me/

tolkienforums.activeboard.com/t17375749/fate-of-the-ents/

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Lórellinë

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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There was some really brilliant stuff in there said by Jaidoprism7 (chuckle)....

If it is supposed that some of the Entwives might have gone East then I would like to say:

Look for the New Fanfic of how Pallando (the blue wizard who was corrupted by Sauron), along with the help of Khamul and a Dark Numenorean Captain look to enslave the remaining Entwives, but to free them, a young Birch tree named Zeke will have to seek out the Secret Groves of the East and meet a wayward orchard of Apple trees and convince them to march to war against Pallando. Just before the epic battle Zeke's catch-phrase will be: "How do you like these apples!"  Although it takes a long time to say in Entish.....



COMING SOON.......



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Friday 23rd of May 2014 09:56:27 PM

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Jaido,
My friend I love how your mind works ... I see all kinds of possibilities ... the Apple Tree's back talking to Pallando, giving him "apple sauce"!  Pallando retaliating with poisoning the Apple Trees to revolt against Zeke with "sour apples." Maybe to counter the "Apple Trees" Pallando has Sauron create some evil race of "Chestnut Trees" ... when Zeke finds out he goes "nutz!" Or the "Apple Trees" go insane ... (you can figure that one out on your own) which makes some of "Apple Trees" allies, "The Willows", "weep" ... I mean the flora / fauna things ... like taking Dogwood and crossing them with wargs and the trees then having "Black Flowers" ...

My friend you have a creative gold mine here ...

Laurelin where do you figure the Ent-Wives fit in this?



-- Edited by Bear on Friday 23rd of May 2014 11:17:47 PM

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Ha ha...well done Bear!

The Entwives will Trojan Horse a huge Apple pie and a Case of Preserves and then they spring the trap!

Part of a "Braveheart" moment before the battle will be Zeke saying: "They think were all Bark, and maybe a few branches, but no bite! And just because we drip it, doesn't make us Saps."

LOL.....Ok...don't mean to distract too much from the original discussion...just couldn't resist....



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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Hahaha! So much PUN around here!

If you ask me the Entwives are hanging out somewhere close to the Havens. My feeling is they got sick of picking up after the Ents (you remember how musty and dusty it was in Fangorn) and all their hard work of garden tending going unappreciated; they figured they'd be better off making their own little commune. Who can blame them?



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Laurelin,
I like (or "dig") the idea that Entwives are making tomato baskets and are "hanging" out by the Havens. I'll bet that in their journey than came across Goldberry who showed them a trick or two about using river water.
I also like the idea that they may have had a hand in teaching hobbits (directly or indirectly) about loving their land and making it fruitful ... avoiding the industrialization that had polluted other lands.
The idea that the being with Ents was like being forced to live in a frat-house makes sense too. And another possibility may have been that Entwives resented having to speak the long drawn out language of Entish ... preferring Quenya or Sindarin ... so that sharing what their day was like didn't take all day everyday.
And as for having their own commune ... how else could they get to vote and receive an equal share of "Entish" stuff?
I like it. Its a sort of ecological radical feminism ... and their flight is a radical but not unheard of action to avoid being abused by their masculine counterparts as reproductive chattels.
What would be really interesting would be the Entwives conversation with Yavanna ... who begged to have them created to protect her creations from destruction ...
Maybe the Entwives could be represented by "Susan B. An-to-tree"?
Yup! These idea's are like sowing the seeds ... and reaping the harvest ... of puns (good and bad), satirical quotes, and creative metaphors (or "meta-fives") inspired by Tolkien's physical and metaphysical ecology ...
I wonder what Eru would say about all this?



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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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What would be really interesting would be the Entwives conversation with Yavanna ... who begged to have them created to protect her creations from destruction ...


 I'm thinking Yavanna could sympathise; after all, she was married to Aule and I just can't imagine him being the neatest or most appreciative husband out there. Remember his comment to her about his Dwarves needing fuel and using up her trees? I have a feeling Yavanna would have understood completely.



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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Hello all you happy people,

Just a little "off topic" announcement here.

The Speculation Thread is now Annotated and has been given a shiny new Table of Contents to help find particular subjects without all the scrolling and digging.

This might also help if Our Book Discussion leads us to deeper discussion. I figure the Spec Thread is the perfect place for this kind of "overflow".

Be well.

Jaidoprism7

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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YAY!

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Tom Bombadil
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Thanks Jado!

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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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The Ring of Power and invisibility.

In another Thread Lorelline stated:  I also wanted to mention that I am not a big fan of this 'Unseen world' theory - it is presented in LOTR but doesn't seem to appear anywhere else. And so not only Gandalf but also Thranduil (not an Exile but someone who lived in Doriath under Melian's protection and who probably saw, if not the Two Trees, then their light in the Silmaril) cannot see Bilbo. And we have to assume there wasn't a single Exile in his kingdom.

And anyway, 'transporting to the Unseen world' by The One ring or any other Ring of Power, resulting in invisibility, seems to be an unintended effect that they had on mortals. Of course The One ring wasn't designed for anyone other than Sauron himself.

Here's what I think: 

I have the inkling that since many pseudo-sciences claim that there is a Ethereal, Astral as well as other planes of existence on Earth, and Middle-earth is supposed to be a prehistory involving Earth why couldn't there by an astral plane or the plane in which ghosts and spirits reside.  A parallel universe co-existing with our own?  Or in this case Middle-Earth's?

Maybe one of the powers of the Ring that it can whisk lesser creatures into this plane as Sauron's power and the art or technique of imbuing artifacts came from another realm other than this Physical Earth.  It was forged in Eregion but the makers were from elsewhere.  To lesser creatures who were born unto that Earth it acted like a portal causing them to see what Sauron can see.  Mortals are also (due to their inherent power and greatness....which was meek, at best) the least likely to resist being pulled into that realm as opposed to an Elf or even least likely to be pulled or swayed was Tom Bombadil.   

The only theory of why Tharanduil could not see Bilbo is this:

Bilbo wasn't dead, he was just in the realm of the Dead or spiritual plane.  Legolas could also see the Dead which is apparent by his time in the Paths of the Dead.  Which leads me to believe that all Elves could see the dead.  The RingWraiths could see Frodo in LOTR because they were dead, but we all know that they couldn't really see well in the real world, they felt or sensed the Ring more than seeing Frodo.  Since Bilbo wasn't actually dead the Elves couldn't perceive him.  But the dead must have seen him like some shiny ghost like object in their dark world since he had life. 


Just a side thought. 

 

What do you think?

 

Any source material that supports or disproves this? 

 

 

 



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Jaidoprism7,

Tolkien used Nordic and Germanic mythological themes through many of his works.
Especially he enjoyed the The Ring of the Nibelung,  four epic operas by the German composer  Wagner. The works are based on characters from the Norse sagas and the Nibelungenlied.

The scale and scope of the story is epic. It follows the struggles of gods, heroes, and several mythical creatures over the eponymous magic Ring that grants domination over the entire world. The drama and intrigue continue through three generations of protagonists, until the final cataclysm at the end.  More specifically the plot revolves around a magic ring that grants the power to rule the world, forged by the Nibelung dwarf Alberich from gold he stole from the Rhine maidens in the river Rhine. With the assistance of the god Loge, Wotan  (the chief of the gods) steals the ring from Alberich, but is forced to hand it over to the giants, Fafner and Fasolt in payment for building the home of the gods, Valhalla, or they will take Freia, who provides the gods with the golden apples that keep them young. Wotan's schemes to regain the ring, spanning generations, drive much of the action in the story. His grandson, the mortal Siegfried, wins the ring by slaying Fafner (who slew Fasolt for the ring) ... as Wotan intended ... but is eventually betrayed and slain as a result of the intrigues of Alberich's son Hagen, who wants the ring. Finally, the Valkyrie Brünnhilde ... Siegfried's lover and Wotan's daughter who lost her immortality for defying her father in an attempt to save Siegfried's father Sigmund ... returns the ring to the Rhine maidens as she commits suicide on Siegfried's funeral pyre, Hagen is drowned as he attempts to recover the ring. In the process, the gods and Valhalla are destroyed. (Thank you to Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen)

So the integration of mythological and spiritual was a venue Tolkien was familiar with.  As an academic he would also have been exposed to the archetypal classifications of C.G. Jung ... so warriors, wizards, shieldmaidens, etc would be part of his rhetorical vocabulary.
And, coupled with his strong belief in the Catholic faith, antagonists and protagonists battling in the hidden world of the numinous it would not be far stretch to see a relic endowed with supernatural gifts ... such as invisibility or access to a spiritual/ultra-physical alternative dimension.





-- Edited by Bear on Wednesday 13th of August 2014 10:56:53 PM

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Thank you Bear, for that.

Reading that bit of tale that you cited was very reminiscent of LOTR and Tolkien's other works featuring the world of Middle-earth. That really inspired me to look further into Wagner's work as well as reading more about the Nibelungenlied. Not to take away from Tolkien but perhaps to get a deeper understanding of Tolkien's process and goals with some of his creations.


Thank you for the info!

smile



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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Here's a random question for speculation:

Where did Golum get his boat that he had in The Hobbit?



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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Nothing like opening an old and musty topic biggrin

What I've been wondering for a while is who does the dirty work in the elves world. We see a glimpse in The Hobbit with the wine steward and other bum getting drunk. But, really, who sweeps the floors, empties the slop jars, mows the lawn, etc.? Perhaps there's a weekly jobs list where everyone takes part. Or are chores assigned?

Thoughts?

P.S.There was another thing I've been wondering about, but it's gone out of my head.



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