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Topic: Lost history and speculative fun

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 14, 2013
Lost history and speculative fun

Speculation Thread

Table of Contents

Sample of Spec Thread:  The journey of the Swords of Gondolin

here and here

Who/what is Beorn, also here

Why Turgon joined Nirnaeth Arnoediad

The Arkenstone as a Silmaril, also here (along with Nienor's fate), here and a few posts following it, here starts the hard core Ark/Sil discussion, continued here and for a few posts here, yet more here and for a few more posts here

The Pukel-men/Druedain - who are they, and related issues , also here and here and here and here

Is Goldberry Nienor or Nienor's daughter? also here and here and here

Was Glorfindel reincarnated? also here and here and here and here

Reincarnation, also here and here - reincarnation of the half-Elven and here and on reincarnation, Glorfindel, and half-Elven for a few posts (the three topics are intertwined)

Half-Elven and their choices, with incarnation mentioned, also On how the choices are made and Galin's theory on the choices of half-Elven (a couple of posts) and continued from here

Elrond's family woes and how he is welcomed in Undying Lands

Glorfindel's travel back to M-e: punishment or not? (several posts)

Will White Council take on the Necromancer in Dol Guldur in The second Hobbit movie?

Did hobbits have jobs?

Gildor, where he was going, and where he was from , also back to Gildor , and again Gildor, and who are High Elves? , and yet more on Gildor , also see below.

A Tolkien's fan on Dagor Dagorath

The timing of Gandalf's and Aragorn's travel from Mirkwood to the Shire , also here and more here , then a mix of Gandalf, Aragorn, and Gildor for several posts

Where did Ents live in M-e?

What happened to Entwives?

 

This topic will be based on our best guesses and speculations on how some of the Vague or even Unanswered Persons, Places, Artifacts in Tolkien's great epics came to be or arrived into the stories that we love so much.

As many of you know, Tolkien was thorough and concise with his creation but many times he created Characters or Artifacts purely as Story Devices with little background or explanation. His ambiguity with these wondrous things have tantalized and teased many of his fans (including yours truly) to voluntary madness. 

I invite the members of this site now, to use all their resources and imaginations to follow the loose threads left behind by this most prolific Writer and Scholar Professor Tolkien to their exhausted ends and answer the questions and fill in the voids of Lore and knowledge in the wide but elusive gaps in the world and history of Middle-Earth. 

Here, I give an example as to what the Marriage of What is given and What possibly could be, can produce in this excerpt from LOTR WIKI:

Glamdring (also called Foe-Hammer) was a one-and-a-half-handed sword, forged for Turgon, the King of Gondolin during the First Age. Glamdring was used in battle only twice in the First Age; Turgon wielded Glamdring in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and in the Fall of Gondolin. For over 6,000 years it went missing, surviving the War of Wrath, until Gandalf (and company) found it (along with Sting and Orcrist) in the trolls' cave in The Hobbit and claimed it for himself. He continued to use Glamdring through the events of The Lord of the Rings, and it is kept safe in the treasure vault at Minas Tirith.[1]

The only way to explain the sword's survival through the War of Wrath is that the sword somehow was taken out of Beleriand within the 43 years after Gondolin's fall and before the end of the First Age. This was most likely accomplished by one of the flightless dragons involved in Gondolin's fall, most probably the dragon later to be known as Scatha the Worm. After fleeing east with the spoils of Gondolin, including Glamdring, Sting and Orcrist, Scatha established a lair on the southern slopes of Ered Mithrin. Roughly around 2000 of the third age, Scatha was killed by Rohirrim leader Fram but the hoard was disputed by the dwarves (it undoubtedly did contain many dwarven treasures as well, like the horn gifted to Meriadoc by Eowyn). The dwarves killed Fram and made off with some of the hoard most likely including the swords of Gondolin. The swords would have been used 700 years later in the battles between the dwarves and the orcs revenging the death of Thror and culminating in the Battle of Nanduhirion (where young Thorin Oakenshield earned his name). Thus the orcs would have a fresh fear of Biter and Beater (as demonstrated by their reactions when they capture Bilbo and company). Years after the battle, the dwarven wielders of the Elvish swords were most likely relocating to Lindon during the Fell Winter of 2911 when they were waylaid unexpectedly by trolls in the Ettenmoors. Thus the swords ultimately fell into the hands of the three trolls from The Hobbit by the end of the Third Age.

 

If there are no comments on the above piece, what have you ever guessed at?  What questions were never answered that made you wonder openly of what could have possibly happened to bring things to pass as they have in Tolkien's works?

I have often wondered about the fate of the two Blue Wizards, Alatar and Pallando.  Its was said that they went into the furthest East passed Mordor.  It was also a legend that Saruman went with them or kept tabs on them for some time.  Could there have been foul play.  Was Sauron's influence far more powerful East of Mordor and because of this were they ensnared early on?  Were they influenced by Saruman to evil therefore eliminating their voices from the White Council?  C'man!

 

 



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Monday 14th of October 2013 02:03:01 AM



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Monday 14th of October 2013 03:54:37 AM



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Thursday 26th of June 2014 05:58:39 PM

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Oooh, love this topic Jaido! I'll try to get my brain working on it. More coffee please!

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Coffee up, Lady Laurelin,

Until then here is one example mode of this thread that struck me, in light of the upcoming Hobbit movie (and by the way this thread is geared to be an open discussion and no one is bound to provide all the answers to their speculations but all are welcome to add their conclusions, thoughts or findings):

Was Beorn just simply a "Skin Changer" or Were-Bear? Some have speculated that he just WAS. Like an anomalous device thrown in to add a little whimsy and mysticism to the affair. Others have said that he might have some talisman that gives him his animal ability.

But what if in fact Beorn's line was cursed from the days of Thangorodrim? Were not Beren and his men tortured and slaughtered in the pit of his Host Morgoth Bauglir by werewolves? What tribe of the three Originating Edain does he hail from? Beor, Haleth or Hador?

Perhaps Beorn's bloodline could be directly linked to the thrall's of Morgoth. When Thangorodrim was over thrown many creatures escaped into the wild and without a master to control them they were free to exercise free will over their ability to change forms. Some must have grown accustomed to their animal side and remained so ever after, while others assimilated into tribes of their own or chose to forgo their animal sides, while others still utilized their ability for survival and but favored their humanity? Either way this would explain Beorn fiery nature and Gandalf's warnings to Thorin and Co.



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Monday 14th of October 2013 06:29:07 PM

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"Was Beorn just simply a "Skin Changer" or Were-Bear? Some have speculated that he just WAS. Like an anomalous device thrown in to add a little whimsy and mysticism to the affair."

This had always been my assumption. I never really questioned his existence in that ME is an altogether "magical" world. But, what I have often wondered is who did Beorn marry? Was there a "she"-Beorn wandering around. Gloin mentioned Grimbeorn when telling Frodo news in the Many Meetings chapter and says that the Beornings have kept the pass from Dale to Rivendell open. Were they all shape-shifters? Gloin doesn't say so, but can one infer that they are since how else could defeat the orcs in that area so "easily"?



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That I don't know Laurelin but I know that Beorn had one son Grimbeorn (as you stated) and he was also gifted with ability to change shape. What if their mom was actually a Bear! EWWWW! LOL.

It is said that there are other Beornings and Beorn was their leader. All of the Beornings were shape shifters...so now we have an entire race of shape shifters who guarded the high passes over the the Misty Mountains. It is Gloin who complains that "Their tolls are high."

Obviously there is a blood line in which that curse/blessing is passed. So this condition could be centuries old. It is said that the Beornings were once plentiful and inhabited the entire vales of the Anduin between Mirkwood and the Misty mountains and were known to trade with other races, selling things such as their famous "Honey Cakes" but I think they were scattered and driven from their homes by the coming of War. The six year war of the Dwarves and Orcs in 2793-2799 TA ending in the Battle of Azanulbizar would of certainly done that and because of this the Beornings had little love for either the Dwarves or Orcs afterwards.

I personally believe that they were one of the only races that kept their humanity enough to deal with the world at large and prosper, turning into a vigilant race. Who knows, there may be the same type of race of Werewolves in Middle-earth that do not come into the tales. Perhaps and equally powerful yet evil race to offset the good in the Beornings. This thread could be fodder for some great fan fiction if the right Author happens to read this....

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It is a pity that Tolkien himself elaborates very little on Beorn. In a letter that is numbered 144 (in the book of published letters) it is plainly said (in reply to questions asked by a proof-reader, Naomi Mitchison) that "Beorn is dead... He appeared in The Hobbit. It was then the year Third Age 2940... We are now [meaning LOTR] in the years 3018-19. Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man." Nothing on sources of his magic! Could it indeed be from Morgoth? Who knows... But Beorn wasn't evil or ugly, while Morgoth's 'creations' were actually corruptions. Maybe his corruption once went awry and the result became, by accident, good?

 



-- Edited by Lorelline on Thursday 26th of June 2014 06:26:34 PM

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I feel that Beorn definitely hailed from the line of man (from the three original Edain: Beor, Haleth or Hador) but because of the Gift/Curse of Shape-changing the became other than human; a departure from the human race. I think the reason the Beornings were so prevalent as a tribe was because they maintained their Humanity. My guess is that there were others just like them, whether Werewolves or Werebats, Lions, Bears but they might have fell into staying in their animal-forms much like the Trees who used to speak but fell into slumber and became regular old trees. Ultimately I feel that the Were-situation was spawned by Morgoth. He couldn't create but could twist and pervert. He enslaved many races and the popular belief is that Orcs were twisted from Elves (although plenty say that the orcs are twisted version humans).



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An interesting question is how those swords left Gondolin. Maybe indeed it could have been a dragon that took them. Why would he need them though? For gems - they have 'jewelled hilts'? And the silly question is how Scatha or another Worm would carry, not even one, but a collection of swords? In his teeth? Or, would he make somebody carry them for him?

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I also cannot ignore the fact that Turgon used his Glamdring only twice. Although I think he wasn't the worst out of hidden kings (that would be Thingol of course), I wonder at times why he left Valinor at all. Well we all know why but I am sure he regretted that decision many, many times.
In this thread I will go on to speculate as to what made Turgon participate in Nirnaeth Arnoediad. He obviously didn't have to, and was unlooked-for.

My guess would be that (1) he was impressed by the death of his cousin and best friend, Finrod, also a hidden king. Maybe that made him thinking - and feeling guilty. And (2) even if not he himself, others in his blessed and safe, but closed city might have been getting restless. (Aredhel by then was the only one who was allowed to go and return - not counting her companions that lost her).

I would imagine that Eagles brought the news of the Union to Turgon, and he, instead of disregarding it, decided to seek the opinions of (for example) lords of the 12 Houses - and that could have been a heated discussion... Didn't the Noldor come to rule and arrange to their taste the free lands in Middle-earth? But instead they are 'locked' even worse than in Valinor. This new golden cage was not worth crossing the Ice and related losses. It is time they stopped hiding... And things like that.

The inhabitants of Gondolin had little idea of the power of Morgoth as yet. Of what kind of opinion Maeglin was would be curious to guess. All we know is he refuses to stay behind as a regent.


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As for Dragons absconding with hoards of treasure, it is a well known case that Dragon's love treasure; Gold, rubies, gems, artifacts anything shiny and of worth. Smaug used it as a bed (most likely a metaphor for greed and covetous nature) because what other use would Dragon have for such trinkets? They must love the feel of it on their hides.

As for you discussion of the Hidden Kings, I'll have to dust off some reference material to throw my hat in to the topic in earnest but I like what your saying....

An opinion is forming.....look out!

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I am posting here an excerpt from my original post of July 17, 2013. It was initially in Jaido's introduction thread but its proper place is here, now that this thread finally is open.

"I myself also have thought of something similar in form to your hypothesis [that Goldberry is Nienor], only not as original I am sure (suspect that others might have thought of this). Is the Arkenstone the Silmaril that ended up in the fiery chasm? The description is extremely similar; it does not burn Bilbo and the dwarves but Earendil's Silmaril did not burn Beren and, ironically, another company of dwarves, either; and it returns underground in the end.

There are arguments against it too - it is found beneath the roots of the Lonely Mountain (which is far from the sunk Beleriand), so one has to assume there was a strong subterranean current of liquid rock or something; and it is said that it was "cut and fashioned by the dwarves". Notably Thorin when looking for the Arkenstone says that he will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it... This reminds of something doesn't it?"

It would have been totally surprising, impossible indeed, if nobody else had asked that question. And I found some discussion on the issue:

forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php

However, the arguments against this hypothesis presented there are quite addressable. It would be interesting to see if there are other considerations in favor or against?



-- Edited by Lorelline on Friday 18th of October 2013 05:58:54 AM

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BTW, there is a whole thread on Beorn on this very site,
tolkienforums.activeboard.com/t6220965/beorn/
It elaborates mostly on the external origin of Beorn, but also on the internal one as we were trying to come up with here. Quite interesting. Well beyond my primary interest though or hopefully I would have noticed it earlier.

The Arkenstone/Silmaril thing is mentioned even on this site too, but just in passing, which is a pity because it really calls for speculation.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Friday 18th of October 2013 05:54:01 AM

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Lórellinë

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What about the Pukel men? Whose creation are they?

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That is a very interesting take on the Arkenstone Lorelline.

A couple of questions rise: I know that Diamonds are made from Molten Rock meets with sand or Particular soils (as have been discovered in shafts left behind by volcanic eruption). Can a Gem or Diamond such as the Arkenstone also be reduced by Lava? In other words would the Gem survive a journey by lava?

Perhaps a Silmaril would make the journey, given its very unique composition. The Silmaril could have been reconstituted "By Molten-rock" and re-encrusted to become larger in the lava flows beneath the Earth....

That is quite a way, however, from Beleriand to the Lonely Mountain.

The distance between Beleriand and The Western Middle-earth that comes into the tales of The Hobbit and LOTR is one of the only reasons I kind of backed off the Nienor/Goldberry theory I had. Although, Nienor could have survived the plunge and been saved or spirited away by Uinen and delivered to the River-woman. Certainly Osse would have knowledge of Ulmo's purpose in flooding Beleriand and would also know The River Woman. Uinen has always taken pity on man and is said to have rule over the lesser waters of the world and could feasibly brought Nienor to the Withywindle.

Nienor was already loopy from all the strain of Glaurung's curse and her grief broke her mind, that is the only reason I felt that Nienor could've been Goldberry because she seems pretty flighty in LOTR when she meets Frodo and the boys for the first time...like she snapped out of some reverie....

What if Uinen was the River-woman and she spared Nienor so that she can get the child support from Osse!! Ah speculation!! LOL

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As for Laurelin's Pukel man topic...I'll have to look into that one.

Did The Pukelmen have knowledge of the passing of Nimrodel as she roamed the White Mountains seeking Amroth? Perhaps they guided her over the Mountains to the sea on the southern end of Gondor....

But that would have been a thousand years before LOTR....


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I'm wondering where the Pukel men came from. I mean, Illuvtar was responsible for Elves and men; Yavanna for ents; Aule for Dwarves;and Morgoth for all the bad guys. Where do Pukel men come from?

Love the child support idea. But, can you picture Osse as a deadbeat?

The only argument I can offer against the Sil/arkenstone things is that only Thorin/Dwarves seemed to really lust after it. The sils were, to my mind, more like the Ring. Everyone wanted a Sil.

 



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Nice speculation, Jaido. Very touching adoption story. Why not? Even though the memory came back to Nienor before she cast herself in the water, she might have lost it again and happily never got it back - Glaurung was dead. Even if Osse, Uinen, and, frankly speaking, Ulmo had no idea of the impending ruin of Beleriand at the moment, it would make perfect sense to take Nienor as far as possible from the place where she had so much grief. And, like I mentioned before, Tom Bombadil would be a perfect match...

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As to the Silmaril, it of course would survive a journey inside a current of liquid rock. Diamonds, however radiant, have no inner light.

I guess I will go ahead and summarize the criticism given to this hypothesis in that other thread, and will try to address each point.

'Smaug would not have been able to lie on a Silmaril without suffering torment - he certainly would not have been sleeping when Bilbo Baggins first came to call.'

Well at worst he wouldn't be able to lie on it directly but if it is covered with a thick layer of gold then why not? Morgoth was burned by the Silmarils when he handled them but not after he set them in his iron crown. It was heavy that's it.

'It is thought that the Silmaril of Maedhros will only be recovered when the Valar break Middle-earth at the End.'

'It is thought' - sounds like no more than a hypothesis. Not everything could have been foreseen even by the Valar. And finally it goes back underground.

'If a Silmaril were to show up at Erebor, ...every elf ... would be drawn to it, not to mention Sauron, and the whole of the White Council. Such a powerful and legendary artifact from the First Age of the World, over which countless battles were fought over and lives lost, would never escape notice for long.'
'...if the Arkenstone was a silmaril the elves wouldn't have allowed it to be owned by dwarves who slew an elf king for a silmaril. '

That's an interesting thought. Even the sons of Feanor were drawn to the Silmarils mostly by their oath. Seems that only they tried to get the Silmarils from others (not counting Beren who only needed it as a ransom). And how widely did the Dwarves advertise that they had such a gem whatever it was?

'It is certain from the physical descriptions, and the difference in the light emission of the Arkenstone and the Silmarils that they are not the same'.

On the contrary, by the description they are very much alike:

The Arkenstone: "The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet... it took all light that fell upon it and changed it into ten thousand sparks of white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow."

The Silmarils: "Of their own radiance they shone, even in the dark of the deepest treasury; yet all lights that fell upon them, however faint, they received and returned again in marvellous hues to which their own inner fire gave a surpassing loveliness".

' "...cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago..." '

'Cut and fashioned' may mean simply that it was inside the surrounding rock and had to be cut out of there, and cleaned somehow.

There is also some discussion on the etymology of the word 'Arkenstone'; it presents no counter-argument at all - the meaning appears to be 'a holy stone' in some archaic language - and the Silmarils were referred to as the holy jewels too.

So far this is not any serious speculation. Looking closer at the the description of the Arkenstone, I could see perhaps something that is not as easily addressable within this hypothesis though... without more involved speculation that is.


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Laurelin,
I just noticed your post after uploading mine. I believe that even if other races knew of the jewel (did they really know?), it would not necessarily mean they would try to get it. Especially being aware of the Silmarils' quite mysteriously working burning properties.

Concerning the Pukel-men, according to Unfinished Tales, they are men, a sub-tribe among Haladin (Haleth's people). I thought you were wondering about their magic - they were able to make statues/sculptures to which they 'bestowed' some of their own strength so that those statues could for example fight with orcs. Maybe this is also in the LOTR but I don't remember.

I am not quite sure at the moment if that was the latest version, but at some point Pukel-men were supposed to also go to Numenor, and they lived there but all gradually left it by ship when (I think) the grumbling against mortality started (or maybe when Sauron came; don't have the book at the moment, being on travel) - saying something like 'the land was no longer firm under their feet. ' As a result, they were not drowned in the Numenor's downfall. I really wonder how they came to possess their magic and foresight.


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Three points you made in the last two posts stood out to me the most:

1. 'Smaug would not have been able to lie on a Silmaril without suffering torment' Yet Bilbo and the Dwarves handled the Arkenstone without harm to their flesh! Would it hurt the Dragon because He was Evil?

2. They say that the Arkenstone was carved by the Dwarves to have many facets... Making me believe that it was rough when discovered....but any normal stone no matter how beautiful would not have a radiance of its own...

3. I've never heard all these accounts of Pukel "magic" "Stone Golems" and Surviving Numenor. I always thought they were a branch of Haladin's tribe who stayed behind or didn't wish to travel into the West with the other tribes. I don't have the Silmarillion but I remember something about certain men departing the rest along the Anduin in the old days.

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1. 'Smaug would not have been able to lie on a Silmaril without suffering torment' Yet Bilbo and the Dwarves handled the Arkenstone without harm to their flesh! Would it hurt the Dragon because He was Evil?

I believe the author of that critical comment meant exactly what you say: that Smaug, a dragon, was by definition evil and therefore should the gem in question be indeed a Silmaril, some burning would be in order. And none is reported. But (1) Smaug didn't have to lie directly on top of the gem; or he could bury it in the abundant gold. No problem that Bilbo later finds it on the surface - Smaug could unearth (ungold) it himself when he was leaving the cave in rage. The jewel was easy to find because of its inner radiance. And (2) if the Silmarils demonstrated their burning qualities consistently and indeed 'no mortal flesh nor flesh unclean' could touch them, then that would be more of a problem (but not insurmountable). But those jewels are known to be wayward and to show their own (at times poor) judgement. Remember that at least one Silmaril was in hands of many mortals and didn't burn any of them - Beren, Luthien (yes, her too), Dior, Elwing, Earendil? Someone would say 'fate'... Ok, but it burned neither the Dwarves - also mortals and in addition doing evil, nor Thingol (who too deserved burning big time). So when a gem that might be a Silmaril doesn't burn Smaug there is not much reason for surprise.

2. They say that the Arkenstone was carved by the Dwarves to have many facets... Making me believe that it was rough when discovered....but any normal stone no matter how beautiful would not have a radiance of its own...

We are not given much detail, but Silmaril or not, it still had to be carved out from the stone and the facets had to be revealed... to me this is not necessarily a contradiction. But do you see something said about the light of the Arkenstone that seems to set it apart from a Silmaril? There are a few descriptions of the Arkenstone in the Hobbit.


3. I've never heard all these accounts of Pukel "magic" "Stone Golems" and Surviving Numenor. I always thought they were a branch of Haladin's tribe who stayed behind or didn't wish to travel into the West with the other tribes. I don't have the Silmarillion but I remember something about certain men departing the rest along the Anduin in the old days.

This is in the part 4 of the Unfinished Tales, called the Druedain - that's how those Pukel-men should be called. Will try to post more on them tomorrow if there is interest.


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I just realized that I may be getting confused. So was Nienor adopted, or her child? Remember she was expecting when Glaurung volunteered his callous comments, totally inappropriate in her situation. What happened to the baby? More speculation is needed!

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Holy Crap!   If you just heard a small explosion in the distance, that would be my mind being blown!!!! 

I Never even caught that little gem of info....She was Pregnant?!?!?!

What if Nienor WAS the River Woman after all and Goldberry her child. Nah. Even for speculation that is a stretch...
Nienor was Mortal and Human. Unless Ulmo, Uinen or Osse could grant such gifts as long life?



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Wednesday 23rd of October 2013 05:53:51 AM

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Although this is a speculation thread, maybe it will not hurt to add here this excerpt from the note #5 to the Druedain chapter in the Unfinished Tales: 'To the unfriendly who, not knowing them well, declared that Morgoth must have bred Orcs from such a stock, Eldar answered: "Doubtless Morgoth, who can make no living thing, bred Orcs from various kinds of Men, but the Druedain must have escaped his Shadow; for their laughter and the laughter of Orcs are as different as is the light of Aman from the darkness of Angband". But some thought, nonetheless, that there had been a remote kinship, which accounted for their special enmity. Orcs and Drugs each regarded the other as renegades'.
So Druedain are uncorrupted men, children of Eru just like other Edain.


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Yes, Nienor was pregnant by Turin. That as it seems was the main reason for her suicidal attempt. And yes, she was mortal - this too has to be addressed. Well Sauron made those Nazgul close to immortal (which is to say that Maiar and Valar in principle can manipulate longevity) but they were not in best shape, quite unlike Goldberry. So is your hypothesis cracked, or can it be saved?



-- Edited by Lorelline on Tuesday 24th of June 2014 07:34:18 PM

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I don't know. I was hoping you could tell me. :)

And about the Orc from Men situation...it seems that Tolkien used the Edain as his whipping boys (so to speak). It is said that Orcs come from Men, Hobbits are of Men, Nazgul are of Men, Uruk-Hai as well. I mean...C'mahn!
In this, it seems like he intended to keep the other races of middle-earth of a more pure essence. Elves are to remain Infallible and incorruptible, The Dwarves; uncontrollable and unmoved by the plights of other creatures. And Men are just leaves in the wind....I guess that is pretty ingenious if you want a lot of magic and mysticism crammed in a book. Otherwise would it be so sad if the Elves left and the Dwarves dwindled?

What does that say about what Tolkien felt about Men in general. Anyone who's read the letters knows that Tolkien didn't have all that much faith in mankind and rightfully so but I guess he really pointed out the frailty in Men.

Plus I believe the Nazgul were indeed Tolkien's version of Liches from D&D fame. Magical, Flesh and Bone but very susceptible to blunt or blade attacks. Thus Eowyn and Merry were able to vanquish one...

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I can't say I blame Tolkien for his view of Men. Women on the other hand...  biggrin

So, if Hobbits and the Druedan are from Men, when/how/how fast did this evolution happen?

In my mind I always pictured the Woses looking more like Frogs than people (like Slithe from Thundercats). I have the Unfinished Tales somewhere. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the reference Lorelline.

 

Ok, Nienor was preggo, killed herself. So since she went down in a chasm, can we guess that Osse saved her, got the Valar to grant her long life, hooked up with the River Man, and was indeed the River Woman (Goldberry's ma)?????

 

 



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That's about right...or so the speculation has led so far, with one exception.

Laurelin wrote: "hooked up with the River Man," That was the one exception. If Nienor was the River-woman that Tom Bombadil describes, then she was already "Pre-hooked up". She was pregnant with Turin's child and Osse delivered Nienor safely to the Withywindle where she gave birth to Goldberry and then Tom Bombadil found them.

Very simple and accurate in all manner of speaking and should be in the appendices of LOTR and sanctioned by the Tolkien estate immediately......before we start thinking again!

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Yes! Let's consider this a proof.
Now if anyone wants to crack the Silmaril? I mean, the Arkenstone?

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Lórellinë

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LOL. I should have been clearer in my "hooked up." I meant it in the non-physical sense. I guess that's my age showing hmm

Lorelline, since you have History of ME and Unfinished Tales, do neither of these mention the Arkenstone's history?



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Laurelin,
I am guessing that if the history of the Arkenstone is given anywhere it would be Vol. IV. I am missing it (as well as VIII and IX). I think what you are getting at is whether there is any external evidence - an explicit statement that one is not the other. That of course would settle the case. But there is something I see even in the 'internal' facts that is not consistent with this hypothesis without pretty heavy speculation. I am just wondering if it is just me who sees this or it is obvious to others, if anybody cares that is?

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Lórellinë

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In The History of The Hobbit John Rateliff notes the sense of finality (that the Silmarils were lost) in the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology and various versions of the 1930 Quenta Noldorinwa. But also writes: 'Despite the sense of finality in the passages just quoted, Tolkien had in fact changed his mind four times in the previous fifteen years about the holy jewel's fate...' J. Rateliff


I think that's a rather notable 'despite' however, because the Sketch and the 1930 Qenta are still relatively close in date to the writing of The Hobbit. JDR continues:

'Just as the sword of Turgon King of Gondolin had somehow survived... it is thus more than possible that Tolkien was playing in The Hobbit with the idea of having one of Feanor's wondrous jewels reappear,...' J. Rateliff


But 'more than possible' isn't saying much in my opinion. No doubt Tolkien changed his mind enough times, so the implication here seems to be that Tolkien might change his mind about this finality once again. Okay, possible, but is there textual evidence to show that he did for his new story? Another implication appears to be that since an item like Turgon's sword survived, maybe one of the Silmarils might too. Well again, that only goes so far I think.

With respect to possibly new information gleaned from drafts for The Hobbit, Rateliff notes that the Arkenstone evolved out of the Gem of Girion, which was a gem given by Girion of Dale to the Dwarves (although it is not told how Girion got this gem in any case). And as for the compared descriptions (how both jewels looked, or dealt with light), even Rateliff [who in my opinion sometimes seems to be trying to suggest the Arkenstone 'might' actually be a Silmaril], notes than any similarities here do not prove that the Arkenstone was intended as a Silmaril.

 

Some measure of 'literary borrowing' (or a better term that I can't think of at the moment) does not necessarily make the Arkenstone a Silmaril [not that anyone said it did], no more than it makes 'the Elven-king' of The Hobbit 'Thingol' or an earlier incarnation. I think we are still wanting textual evidence -- at least something direct I mean -- that Tolkien was actually playing with the notion of making this gem a Silmaril specifically.

For myself, I think it's a stretch to interpret 'cut and fashioned by the Dwarves, who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it and changed it into ten thousand sparks of white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.' to mean releasing an already finished [and wondrous] gem from the earth, from something stuck to it, or around it.

 

Anyway there doesn't seem to be any confirming text or note in the draft stages of The Hobbit (which would be new to the case, so to speak). I think there is 'literary borrowing' here; and I also find an elegance to the 'end' of the Silmarils in Sky, Sea, and Earth, and am not sure that bringing one back to end up on Thorin's grave would be an improvement...

... as far as my opinion goes, anyway.



-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 24th of October 2013 07:41:32 PM

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Very detailed account, and very helpful. Ok - so any direct external evidence for or against this hypothesis is essentially lacking.

As to internal, how about this?
"...but indeed there could not be two such gems, even in so marvellous a hoard, even in all the world"
Although this too can be seen in at least two ways. One way would imply that, because of their virtually identical description, the Arkenstone could be nothing else but a Silmaril. But on the other hand there were not even two but three Silmarils.

The interpretation of 'cut and fashioned' could be a stretch, but not a fatal one given so little detail on how it was done.

What I find more problematic is this statement:
"It was as if a globe had been filled with moonlight and hung before them in a net woven of the glint of frosty stars".
'Filled with moonlight' looks to me as if the light of Laurelin wasn't there. Of course whether the observers reported the view accurately - no one of them has seen an actual Silmaril, or the unsullied light of the Trees, Gandalf being absent at the moment - is another question. The Silmarils were filled with the mingled light of the Trees...

And I do think that an elegance is an important argument. One might see it in a sort of 'symmetry', each of the Jewels finding its own fate and ending up in a different substance.
But in fact how they 'end up' there may matter too. While Earendil travels with his Silmaril through the air apparently without much complaint, peaceful 'ending up' of the two remaining Silmarils in the other two substances absolutely doesn't apply. To me, there is little elegance (or too much tragedy) in that...

This is especially true about the Silmaril of the Earth. It doesn't just fall into the fiery chasm. It is taken there by Maedhros who casts himself into that chasm but doesn't let go of the Jewel, despite that his hand (and he had but one) was burned by it. He is determined to fulfill the oath even though it is not fully possible to get the Jewel in the possession because of the burning. We know that he (who had a strong will - was able to remain uncorrupted after facing Morgoth) tried to foreswear the oath but could not (a matter of a different thread). Thus the oath could not be abandoned nor fulfilled - and so what was he to do?

I would be thinking that he desperately tried to bend the Silmaril to his will and extinguish its burning fire. (Terrible thought - one Feanor's creation fighting another. The Silmaril shouldn't be burning its rightful heir but it does - deeming him evil; so the Jewel was following the will of the Valar). Now the burning capacity of the Silmarils should, or could, be coming from the Laurelin's light, because it was hot. And perhaps in his last moments Maedhros was able to quench that fire, to a degree, or maybe it was spent on him, but as a result, the light of Laurelin got diminished in that Jewel, along with its burning power. And its light became white, like moonlight.

Ah speculation... makes me want to cry not laugh

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Lórellinë

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'The interpretation of 'cut and fashioned' could be a stretch, but not a fatal one given so little detail on how it was done.'

 

I think Tolkien has provided, if briefly, enough information here for the reader to arrive at a natural conclusion: to me cut and fashioned clearly refers to the making of a gem stone, and the skill of the Dwarves is made evident to the reader here.

I would think the notability would be in the finding of such a thing, an already 'cut and fashioned' jool waiting in the earth!?!

To my mind, Shirley the reader is meant to think, detailed description or not, that this jool is made by Dwarves and prized by Dwarves. Granted 'fatal' is subjective, but in my opinion this is a rather notable hoop to jump through.

 

 

And it is not simply said [not that anyone said otherwise] that the three Silmarils found their 'long homes' but that the joy of the victory of the War of Wrath was diminished '... for they returned without the Silmarils from Morgoth's crown, and they knew that those jewels could not be found or brought together again unless the world be broken and remade.'

Of course one can always 'question the internal characters' or scribes [as in something like: 'hey, what did the Vanyar know anyway'], but for me the finality here is desired by the author. And again for me, even if a Silmaril had somehow ended up on Celebrimbor's breast [himself at least a Feanorean], it still would have undermined the elegance to some degree.

Celebrimbor is rather connected to the next great 'making', the Rings of Power. For me the Silmarils 'reappearing' [well, obviously with Earendil in mind in any case] await the future within the legends of Men regarding the End Times.

 

In short: their future [as different from finding their long homes as a/in the: Star/Sky, Sea, Earth] is legendary, major stuff.

 

No offense to Thorin and Company smile



-- Edited by Galin on Saturday 26th of October 2013 04:36:00 PM

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"...this jool [I wonder if this is a newly invented word or an existing colloquial one] is made by Dwarves and prized by Dwarves." You don't really mean that the gem with this inner light was made by the Dwarves, right? Cut and fashioned yes, but the gem was already shining from inside. I don't think we are told that it was an artificial Dwarf-made one... no one would try to equate it with a Silmaril then.

So if the elegance is in the fact that the 'jools' of the elder two Feanorians are not to be obtained by the Valar, at least not that soon, then with that I agree. I already mentioned that requesting them from Feanor in the first place, in the plain straightforward way like Yavanna did it, was unwise (I would even say inappropriate). The Valar at most could have given him a hint, that his help would be much appreciated, but they should not have put any pressure on him, even if simply for practical reasons. And that Vanyar still hoped to get the Silmarils back to Valinor (and Eonwe too) shows that not much thought was given to the causes of exile and of excess violence and that it didn't occur to the Valar to blame themselves for provoking Feanor. Not to mention that they didn't really need the Silmarils anymore! Nobody did, except for the oath-takers; and still, 'the joy was diminished'... disappointing!

As to Celebrimbor, very timely comment. I guess I will first deal with him in the concurrent thread though, but some speculation about him will also be possible.


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Lórellinë

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"...this jool [I wonder if this is a newly invented word or an existing colloquial one] is made by Dwarves and prized by Dwarves." You don't really mean that the gem with this inner light was made by the Dwarves, right? Cut and fashioned yes, but the gem was already shining from inside. I don't think we are told that it was an artificial Dwarf-made one... no one would try to equate it with a Silmaril then."

 

I mean cut and fashioned is still 'making' the gem, and especially in an ultimate sense [the finished 'product' let's say]. Or put it this way perhaps, considering the ultimate properties of the Arkenstone, as the reader encounters it along with Bilbo, the Arkenstone is Dwarf-found and Dwarf-made. 

How it shines with an inner light is not told, but as far as reflected light the skill of the Dwarves accounts for this, which, in my opinion would not have been necessary if we had a Silmaril. If I recall correctly it's also not told how the Elendilmir [the one lost by Isildur] seems to shine of its own accord, or how certain blades glow blue in the presence of orcs -- although here one naturally assumes by some artistic power of the Elves.

In any case, the 'Gem of Girion' [as literary precursor to the Arkenstone] shone with its own light too -- in this earlier conception Girion had given the Gem in payment for the arming of his sons: 'It was a great white gem, that shone of its own inner light within, and yet cut and fashioned by the Dwarves to whom Girion had given it, it caught and splintered all light that it received...' While The Dragon's Away, The History of The Hobbit part II, JDR

 

Also according to JD Rateliff, the Gem was: 'Initially invented to serve as a portable one-fouteenth share of the hoard to give the lie to Smaug's insinuation that the Dwarves knew all along that Bilbo could never carry away his fair share, its value and allure were greatly increased with each iteration, until instead of Bilbo's designated portion it became the one item from the hoard Thorin most wanted to reclaim and, in an ironic reversal, the one item he would have forbidden Bilbo to take.'

I doubt Tolkien intended at the outset that Bilbo's share be an actual Silmaril. Granted he could have later imagined an actual Silmaril here, but again I note that the Gem of Girion shone with its own inner light -- when it was still a Mannish payment to the Dwarves -- who cut and fashion it in order that it reflect the light as described.

 

For anyone wondering, the spelling 'jool' is used in the books by a visitor from Michel Delving for example, and repeated by the Gaffer.



 



-- Edited by Galin on Monday 28th of October 2013 11:41:38 AM

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As I gather from your post, it amounts to the gem initially shining from within but with imperfect surface that needed cutting and fashioning. How much further the matter can be stretched I am not sure... Following the previous line of 'reasoning' why not suppose that not only the inner radiance of the Silmaril got changed (the golden light exhausted) but also its surface lost perfection. A prophecy says that in the end Feanor will break the Silmarils for rekindling of the Trees (I think this is the way it is presented in The War of the Jools); and if Feanor is able to break them, perhaps his son, in desperation, can at least damage, intentionally or not, the surface of one of them...

...as a matter of speculation, in this thread anyway. I see it is more challenging to speculate and yet not to get into any contradiction with the facts, as opposed to speculation without any limits.

And I realize that it is largely the same prophecy as the one that predicts the jewels to remain hidden until the end.

I find it interesting that Vanyar knew about that; how did they - from Manwe/Mandos? And if they knew that anyway, then why to have less joy? When Finarfin and the remaining Noldor of Tirion were added to the Host of Valinor, the statement was not revised (as for as I remember) to include them among those whose joy was diminished - although one may think that the matter pertaining to the Silmarils touched them much nearer than it touched the Vanyar.

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In my opinion then we have more hoops to jump through, as the substance of the Silmarils was described as: 'more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.'

Within the Kingdom of Arda is notable, and in any case Tolkien would later characterize the breaking of the Three Jools as part of a Mannish Myth. 

I realize this thread is about speculation; and again it's going to be subjective what a 'contradiction' is, but for me the Arkenstone as Silmaril case [encountered on various Tolkien forums] is strained in general.

As for my earlier post, I don't know if the stone necessarily needed cutting, or more cutting maybe, when it was a Mannish gift, but that it was cut in any case, and its reflected light qualities thus connected to the work of the Dwarves.

And [again for me the very natural and 'clear' interpretation is] it was still cut and fashioned by the Dwarves in the ultimate scenario, whatever shape it had when found.

 

 



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"In my opinion then we have more hoops to jump through, as the substance of the Silmarils was described as: 'more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.'

Within the Kingdom of Arda is notable, and in any case Tolkien would later characterize the breaking of the Three Jools as part of a Mannish Myth. "

What comes to mind is many things are said about the Silmarils. And what may be noted is that not everything holds true. At least whatever pertains to who they should or should not burn. To me this burning thing is one of their most important qualities, and since they don't operate as predicted in that respect, this gives a certain ground to question the remaining predictions as well - although that ground is rather shaky. Also, Mannish myths aside, Feanor himself says that he may unlock/break the Jools.

Well, as can be easily guessed, I don't mind that the Arkenstone is not a Silmaril. I would mind even less though if that particular Silmaril got damaged or even completely destroyed in the fall... for it's truly Feanorian treachery. But this is a highly subjective matter beyond any speculation.

What I am hoping can be speculated about is the properties of those Jools. I tried that before, with a limited success as ever. I am still wondering if they had their own mind or will - sometimes they just leave that impression. I recall that Mr. Bagging didn't agree (saying they were not like the One ring) and am wondering if this can be further discussed. Of course this cannot be resolved by voting, just like none of such issues...


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Lórellinë

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All,
My suggestion for this wonderful thread is that, as it is a vehicle for imagination and just plain fun, the postings are irrefutable. We love Tolkien.  Why we find his works so enjoyable is, in part, because they create within each of us a world of fantasy and inspiration.  This thread seems to lend itself to celebrate each others diverse and imaginative creations.
I certainly enjoy the discourse that follows as different opinions and imaginative reconstructions play out.  They are both wonderful and certainly filled with insight and revelation of Tolkien's works. But that is not this threads purpose. At least it wasn't when there was discussion with Jaidoprism7. My understanding was that this thread was an imaginative and creative venue where we could play together.
Again I am open to reproof and instruction if I have misunderstood. 
I hope not ... because we need a place to play ... and not another venue for instruction, review, and refute from other Tolkien related sources. We have a plethora of those on these Forums.

Hopefully I am not making too big a deal out of nothing here.
My caution is that this thread has been created just for fun.
I am certainly open to reproof if my premise is contrary to the threads intent.
Perhaps the speculative fun may be rendered unachievable as we find the lost history is not that lost but rather brought to light in the many versions of Tolkien's creative process.

If our goal is to bring an argumentative case to check the speculative fun why have this thread at all.
Please let us enjoy the gift of each others creativity and not bind ourselves to a history that is not lost but merely buried  in the myriad of texts that accompany Tolkien's work.

In short and as example ... without reference to any printed version ... "What the hell happened to the two blue Istari?"
Did they found "Starbucks"?

With respect,

Bear
 



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