I remember we recently had a poll asking which member of the Fellowship achieved the least. I am not sure which answer received most votes, but anyway, I just thought I would give you Tolkien's view on this.
"Legolas probably achieved least of the Nine Walkers." The Unfinished Tales - The Istari
He doesn't give any detail as to why he made this choice, only saying that the Elves were not very important in the overthrow of Sauron.
I've always tried to find where that quote was, as I love to show it to all the 'Legolas lovers.' It's not that I hate Legolas, in fact I rather like him...I just dislike all the fans that have seen the movies and think that Legolas is some super-human mad skills Elf with superman powers...when really when it comes to Elves, he rather your average elf. He can shoot a bow and is a capable fighter, but as far as Elves go...that is rather average. I mean Haldir a simple march-warden can do that as well.
Anyway, so to go on with a little debate. I think it's clear that all the Hobbits, Gandalf, Aragorn, and Boromir, of the Fellowship all had accomplished more than Legolas. I think it depends upon the context of what we are talking about.
Are we talking about the accomplishments they made while in the Fellowship? Or what they accomplished during and outside of the Fellowship. I think what he did for the Fellowship, Legolas accomplished the least...but what he did outside I would say Gimli did the least. As I really feel it comes down between those two, as everyone else in the Fellowship played very important roles, especially Gandalf, the Hobbits, and Aragorn.
If we look at what they did during the Fellowship, Gimli's most significant act was probably saving Eomer's life at Helm's Deep, and he becomes extremely important in holding the caves. Legolas' was probably telling everyone at the Council that Gollum had escaped...or maybe his 41 kills at Helm's Deep. Legolas may be a more capable fighter than the Hobbits, but as far as the deeds he accomplished, all the Hobbits accomplished more.
If we look at what they did outside the Fellowship, it's a toss-up between Legolas and Gimli, because we aren't told much background information about either of them. Besides adding some good fighting capabilities to the Fellowship, Legolas really doesn't achieve all that much. So, I can see where Tolkien came up with the thought that Legolas accomplished the least. Also, taking into consideration what is happening here at the End of the Third Age, it makes sense.
There are still Elves around at this time, but most of the Elves seems to be leaving. They play an important role in defeating Sauron, but it is a limitted one as they are sailing away leaving Middle-earth to Men's dominion.
The Dwarves aren't leaving, but they are dwindling as a race and seem to play more hands off in the War against Sauron. There are some who (Durin's folk) who resist him, but for the most part the Dwarven houses just tend to their own affairs.
Gandalf plays a very instrumental role in the defeat of Sauron, but he achieved his goal and so he's going back 'home' too after his task of dealing with Sauron was finished.
So, if we look at it from this perspective, going into the 4th Age is the time of Men, it's going to be their world now...so naturally they will be the ones who do the most in resisting and defeating Sauron. So, people like Aragorn and Boromir would play important roles in the outcome of the war. This would also include the Hobbits, as they are included in the race of Men, and the 4 Hobbits probably achieved more than anyone else in the Fellowship.
__________________
I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Indeed. Of course they are all important, but still Legolas didn't do so much. It is hard however to say that...after all without the Fellowship nothing would have happened.
You know, I've known about the poll results at the bottom for a while. And I've seen this polls result. But I didn't notice until now that Legolas only had one vote. I guess this thread really is inportent.
yes, it is indeed interesting to see what people think, when they don't know what Tolkien's opinion was. usually when they know what he said they agree with his decision, but in this case you can see Boromir, Merry or Pippin were all considered to have had a smaller importance then Legolas.
see, that is what I meant you shouldn't feel ashamed or...not good in lore if you don't have the same opinion as Tolkien. after all, even this question can't receive an objective answer. even Tolkien said "probably achieved least", to show that this is not a 100% clear matter. it is ok in my opinion to have a different opinion, as long as you have your own reasons. of course Tolkien knew much more about ME, but he himself was not all-knowing. if a person says that Boromir did less then Legolas and has his own good reasons for that I would personally respect their decison.
In the end, Boromir was an example of how the ring can corrupt all except those of extremely strong character. Boromir, saved Merry and Pippin, and in doing so, aided the outcome of the defeat of Saruman, but proved to have failed in his oath toward the fellowship. He was weak of spirit, and jepordized the fellowship's stated goal. He was a great fighter, but not a true leader of men. His brother, Faramir, was much stronger, as he was an independent thinker, and a numenorean through and through.
__________________
I am Anduril, who was Narsil. Let the thralls of Mordor fear me.
I agree in that the movies have had a large influence on people's opinion of Legolas - mainly because they chose Orlando to play the character. And I do agree that Legolas did seem to have the least amount of importance to the Fellowship (I am not saying he was not important), but how much more of a role did Gimli have?
the problem here is that in the end, even the smallest and most unsignificant things had a very important part in the way things took place during the war of the ring. however, I agree and I must say I could rather imagine the fellowship completing their task without Legolas or Gimli then without Merry or Sam. again, of course also Legolas and Gimli and Theoden, and etc played a great part, but clearly ot as great as others. Frodo is in my opinion, alongside Gandalf and Aragorn the chief actor in the quest
it depends from what point of view you see it still...I doubt this is true as Tolkien himself says in one letter, no person in Middle-earth would have been able to get closer to the Cracks of Doom with the Ring then Frodo. of course he would not have been able to do this without Sam, but the same applies to Tom Bombadil, Aragorn, Gandalf, and probably many, many others he met along his quest. everyone played a decisive role in defeating Sauron, still if it comes to achievements, I think Frodo should receive more credit.
I'd say that Sam was as or more important than Frodo.
That is quite true, if Sam had not been at Shelobs Lair with Frodo, then Sauron would have gotten the ring. He also kept a watchful eye on Gollum, which made a large difference in the outcome.
Even if Frodo had died, I reckon Sam could have finished the job. He proved that he had the willpower to let the ring go.
All, I don't quite agree that Sam is more important than Frodo. But I do agree that, without Sam, Frodo would never have made it and Sauron would have the Ring. King Angmar wrote; "Even if Frodo had died, I reckon Sam could have finished the job. He proved that he had the willpower to let the ring go." (Tolkien Forums > Lord of the Ring > Poor Legolas > The New King Angmar > September 20th, 2009) I like the idea that Samwise Gamgee had, within him, power to overcome the Ring. But I see Sam's power in a different way. Sam's power is in his devotion and love for Frodo. It is his steady, simple, gardener connected to the earth, vigilant, heroic, (dare I say stubborn?), his fondness for food and comfort, pots and pans carrying, grounded view of life, that keeps Frodo moving towards and eventually reaching the Cracks of Doom.
It is Frodo who endures the almost cancer like power of the Ring all the way from the Shire to Mordor.. It is Frodo, while at the Council of Elrond, even though he knew the insidious power of the Ring, agreed to carry the Ring to Mordor...even after being wounded by the Witch King. Frodo coerced Gollum as a guide... That adds lots of points to Frodo. But as King Angmar points out;"That is quite true, if Sam had not been at Shelobs Lair with Frodo, then Sauron would have gotten the ring. He also kept a watchful eye on Gollum, which made a large difference in the outcome." Perhaps the statement might be "Sam was as important as Frodo."
__________________
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
I remember being somewhat unimpressed with Legolas upon my first reading of LOTR.
It wasn't so much that I didn't like him; it was more that we learn very little about him and his motivations for participating in the Quest of the Ring.
When you compare him to most of Tolkien's other Elven characters, he just doesn't hold up. Other Elves (Feanor, Elrond, Galadriel, Thingol, etc.) are fiery, wise, courageous, accomplished, grandiose, whatever. All the other characters in the Fellowship have clear, sensible reasons for being there. Legolas is really kind of "Hey guys what's going on? Mind if I tag along?"
Which is fine, I suppose, but in the books he is quite forgettable in my opinion. We know so little of him that I couldn't really speculate as to whether he accomplished the "least". We don't know who he was, why he was there, or what his hopes or motivations were.
I didn't find him forgetable at all when I first read the books. He was always singing and upbeat when the going got rough. He was the first Elf in many a year to befriend one of the Dwarf kind. This friendship lasted out the Age. Because of this Gimli was called Elf-friend. Gimli became knight-errant to Galadriel. And this Dwarf was the only one of his people who would ever sail into the West in the company of an Elf or no. Legolas was not just a hanger on in the Company, his skill with the bow helped the Nine Walkers out quite a bit. He killed werewolves and bought the Comapny time by bringing down a fell beast; a shot made in the dark....literally. What other members of the Company could have accomplished his feats with the bow? Tolkien did say that of all the Fellowship he would accomplish the least.....not because he did nothing at all in service of Middle Earth, but because nothing he did would change the course of history for the Elf. His success on the Quest would not win the Elf more time on Middle Earth. The Elves were leaving. Those who did not would deminish. His own sealonging would be awoken and his own days were numbered. He would no longer be content but would have to sail. Perhaps Legolas didn't have the fire and wisdom of Galadriel or Elrond but he was just a youth compared to them. He was young, comparativily, being one of the last Elves born on Middle Earth.
-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 21st of September 2009 02:35:46 PM
-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 21st of September 2009 02:41:19 PM
We also have to remember that Gollum, though it was on accident, did destroy the ring. Luckily he died without a care in the world. I kind of liked Gollum. He was like a hero and a villain at the same time. The ring would never have made it to Mordor without Gollum.
I didn't find him forgetable at all when I first read the books. He was always singing and upbeat when the going got rough. He was the first Elf in many a year to befriend one of the Dwarf kind. This friendship lasted out the Age. Because of this Gimli was called Elf-friend. Gimli became knight-errant to Galadriel. And this Dwarf was the only one of his people who would ever sail into the West in the company of an Elf or no. Legolas was not just a hanger on in the Company, his skill with the bow helped the Nine Walkers out quite a bit. He killed werewolves and bought the Comapny time by bringing down a fell beast; a shot made in the dark....literally. What other members of the Company could have accomplished his feats with the bow? Tolkien did say that of all the Fellowship he would accomplish the least.....not because he did nothing at all in service of Middle Earth, but because nothing he did would change the course of history for the Elf. His success on the Quest would not win the Elf more time on Middle Earth. The Elves were leaving. Those who did not would deminish. His own sealonging would be awoken and his own days were numbered. He would no longer be content but would have to sail. Perhaps Legolas didn't have the fire and wisdom of Galadriel or Elrond but he was just a youth compared to them. He was young, comparativily, being one of the last Elves born on Middle Earth.
-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 21st of September 2009 02:35:46 PM
-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 21st of September 2009 02:41:19 PM
All excellent points, and all true. I certainly respect the ideas that Legolas contributed much to the success of the Fellowship and that he of all the Fellowship had the most to lose and the least to gain. Elves were largely uninvolved in the conflict and Legolas stood to gain little by risking himself. Legolas's choices and contributions were certainly honorable, and it wasn't really my intention to disparage him as a character. I just wish that we had learned a bit more about him or that Tolkien had made him "stand out" a bit more. When I said that he was no Feanor or Elrond, I meant more that he was not given the spotlight to show great deeds rather than that he lacked the qualities to perform them. Tolkien could have chosen to give him a fantastic, accomplished moment as he did with Sam, Eowyn, Gandalf, etc, but for whatever reason he remained somewhat "background" throughout the story, contributing in many ways, but never really shining(at least in my eyes).
I didn't find him forgetable at all when I first read the books. He was always singing and upbeat when the going got rough. He was the first Elf in many a year to befriend one of the Dwarf kind. This friendship lasted out the Age. Because of this Gimli was called Elf-friend. Gimli became knight-errant to Galadriel. And this Dwarf was the only one of his people who would ever sail into the West in the company of an Elf or no. Legolas was not just a hanger on in the Company, his skill with the bow helped the Nine Walkers out quite a bit. He killed werewolves and bought the Comapny time by bringing down a fell beast; a shot made in the dark....literally. What other members of the Company could have accomplished his feats with the bow? Tolkien did say that of all the Fellowship he would accomplish the least.....not because he did nothing at all in service of Middle Earth, but because nothing he did would change the course of history for the Elf. His success on the Quest would not win the Elf more time on Middle Earth. The Elves were leaving. Those who did not would deminish. His own sealonging would be awoken and his own days were numbered. He would no longer be content but would have to sail. Perhaps Legolas didn't have the fire and wisdom of Galadriel or Elrond but he was just a youth compared to them. He was young, comparativily, being one of the last Elves born on Middle Earth.
-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 21st of September 2009 02:35:46 PM
-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 21st of September 2009 02:41:19 PM
All excellent points, and all true. I certainly respect the ideas that Legolas contributed much to the success of the Fellowship and that he of all the Fellowship had the most to lose and the least to gain. Elves were largely uninvolved in the conflict and Legolas stood to gain little by risking himself. Legolas's choices and contributions were certainly honorable, and it wasn't really my intention to disparage him as a character. I just wish that we had learned a bit more about him or that Tolkien had made him "stand out" a bit more. When I said that he was no Feanor or Elrond, I meant more that he was not given the spotlight to show great deeds rather than that he lacked the qualities to perform them. Tolkien could have chosen to give him a fantastic, accomplished moment as he did with Sam, Eowyn, Gandalf, etc, but for whatever reason he remained somewhat "background" throughout the story, contributing in many ways, but never really shining(at least in my eyes).
That is true, he was a background character throughout the story, and he did accomplish feats that the others couldn't. But he played quite an important part in the story. Without his elf ears and eyes, Aragorn and Gimli would not have found Pippin and Merry.
This is a bit off topic, but Tolkien said that Gimli and Legolas' friendship developed so much that Gimli accompanied Legolas to Valinor. What do you think they did together after the Ring was destroyed and the Fellowship disbanded? Do you think that they might have had adventures worth a story that Tolkien had no time to write? I think we are almost finished with the Legolas being unimportant topic, so how about we discuss Gimli and Legolas' friendship?
Hi New King! Maybe you can start a new thread on Gimli and Legolas' friendship? That would be cool, I think!
Good points Secret Fire, and thank you for clarifying. I too wish Tolkien had given us more on Legolas. People have to speculate on him right down to his hair and eye color, though I think the hair issue was clarified by Christopher in "The Lord of the Rings A Reader's Companion" by Hammond and Scull. I think one reason that the Elf took a back seat in this story is because it was meant to be a Hobbit's story? That is what people were yammering for. And it was also the end of the Elven Ages and the beginning of the Time of Men. In his notes Tolkien had given more time and heavier scenes to Legolas but later give them over to the Hobbits and Strider.
