Tolkien Forums

I think that Tolkien was implying that fate was at work in the destruction of the ring since Frodo was incapable of completing the task.~Celethil

Fate is something that's present in the Lord of the Rings, but I would call the term best used for Eru's intervention as luck.  Not just from Letter 192, but several other letters (181, 191, and 246) all point out that Eru had caused Gollum's fall, destroying the Ring.

'Providence' (fate, chance, or predestined) however you want to put it, is something that Tolkien did not mention a lot.  Providence only shows up a few select times in Tolkien's letters.  And there are some things from his works where we can see fate is prevalent...Gandalf says Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by it's maker.

So, there is an element of providence, or fate, but I think that 'luck' would be a better way of describing things.  Tolkien says in a BBC Radio Interview:

"I have always been undeservedly lucky at major points."

And I think this luck shows in his books.  As remarked by Professor Tom Shippey:

However, ‘chance’ was not the word which for Tolkien best expressed his feelings about randomness and design. The word that did is probably ‘luck’....to ‘change their luck’, and can in a way say ‘No’ to divine Providence ~The Road to Middle-earth

I think there are moments of fate, chance, and predestiny, but I think the big one is luck.  Because through free will, the free will given to Eru's children they have a chance to change their luck, and change their fate.  Letter 192 doesn't get it's full meaning unless these 2 quotes are with it:

''Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest hounour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.''~Letter 246

’'But at this point the ’salvation’ of the world and Frodo’s own ’salvation’ is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him , and could rob him in the end. To ’pity’ him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He [Gollum] did rob him and injure him in the end- but by a ’grace’ that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing anyone could have done for frodo! By a situation created by his ’forgiveness’ , he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden."~Letter 181

It was Frodo's previous act of Pity and Mercy toward Gollum that won him his salvation.  His failure had been redressed, Frodo's own salvation by Eru was because of his previous act of pity to Gollum.  So, eventhough if there are moments of fate and providence, the biggy is 'luck.'  And people can change their fate, by the choices they make with the free will that they all possess.  Eru just didn't cause Gollum to fall because it was fate and it had to happen.  He did it because Frodo had pitied and mercied Gollum (with his own free will) and that earned Frodo his own salvation to where Eru 'relieved him of his burden,' and 'redressed his failure.'

The Valar are lessar gods like the greek gods, and the Maiar are the angels - Mouth of sauron. 

I disagree. I think that the Maiar are like angels but the Valar are like the Archangels.

The Maiar are like the Valar exept to a lesser degree.

Melkor (an archangel) turned evil and left (like satin did)

Eru is not like Zeus or Odin, that role belongs to Menwe. - Celethil

I don't agree with this if the Valar are like Archangels than that would make Mewe like Michael Archangel. Not Zeus or Odin.

Celethil wrote:

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Actually I did not forget that point. I will have to search for the quotes in the letters, but I believe Tolkien talks about this exact scenario and states that the Nazgul would have been drawn to the ring, but that they would feel compelled to serve the wearer. Sauron would have to know that, but I think he would welcome any open use of the ring, in order to bring it closer to him and Minas Tirith was pretty close to Mordor.

I am not sure exactly what would have happened if Boromir showed up at Minas Tirith with the Nazgul, but I can't think that it would go smoothly.

Frodo avoided being found by the Nazgul because he was afraid of them and did not wish to use the ring as a weapon directly against its master. We know that Boromir had different plans.

 

I find that one a bit hard to swallow, as when Frodo put the Ring on at Amon Sul, the Nazgul certainly didn't seem to want to serve him...except on a platter.

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