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Topic: What about Mithrellas ?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jul 24, 2006
What about Mithrellas ?

Ok, so firstly to make sure you all see where I'm coming from with this thread title, I'm going to make a short summary about the story of Mithrellas.

She was a Silvan Elf, who accompanied Nimrodel (an Elf of Lorien, loved by Amroth) during her journey to the southern havens. Now it is said that during their journey Mithrellas got lost in the forests of Belfalas and was found by Imrazor the Numeronean. And it is said that their son was Galador, the first Prince of the line of Dol-Amroth.

Now the problem is, except this, there is a very interesting quote in LOTR, The Numenorean Kings:

"There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Lúthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn. By the last the long-sundered branches of the Half-elven were reunited and their line was restored."

As we see, only 3 unions are counted...so what happened to Mithrellas and Imrazor?
Mithrellas is an Eldar. Imrazor is an Edain. The only idea I can think of is that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor did not exist in the time when LOTR was written, but still, why wasn't this passage then changed to the form of 4 unions instead of 3? Or could it be that the importance of the union was not considered high enough so that it could be included here?

And lastly, what happened to Mithrellas? Did she have the same fate as Arwen or Luthien? Did she choose to forsake immortality to join Imrazor in death?
I am not sure if The Master has provided us with any answers to these questions, but if anyone of you can help with clearing up these things, I would be very grateful.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Having read the Silmarillion only once or twice I am afraid small characters like these I don't really know alot on TM. So basically this post of mine is pointless...

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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It is pointless, especially as Mithrellas isn't even mentioned in the Silmarillion.
As an Elf of Lorien, she was one of the Silvan Elves that never entered Beleriand, but that remained east of the Misty Mountains and created "woodland-realms". Still, she is one of the Teleri, and implicitly, one of the Eldar.
And Imrazor, as a Numeronean is clearly an Edain.

Anyway, if you however wish to learn more about the Silvan Elves, I recommend that you read Unfinished Tales, Tale of Galadriel, Celeborn, and of Amroth, King of Lorien. There you can find out quite many interesting things about them, like for example the way these Elves started to live on wood platforms in trees (talans) or the story of Nimrodel.

Alas, my question stands, so if anyone has any other information as to why the union of Mithrellas and Imrazor is not counted among the unions of Eldar and Edain, please do post !

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Valar
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To put it simply the three unions that were mentioned were special cases.  Where Mithrellas' and Imrazor's was not.


In the three unions mentioned it all had to do with the Peredhil, or the half-elven.  Because of the good deeds Earendil had done, him and his descendants were given the special priveledge to keep their Elven Immortality or not.  We see Elrond decided to stay immortal, where Elros and Arwen gave up their elven immortality.  And this brings in the importance of the 3 marriages.


Tuor, being the Man, and Idril the Elf, their son was Earendil.  Elwing's grandparents were Beren and Luthien.  Beren and Luthien had Dior (but from what I understand was not given the choice of the half-elven, even though by blood he was half-elf...and I'll get to that), he married the elf Nimloth who's daughter was Elwing. 


Now we have Earendil and Elwing, and because of Earendil's deeds which can be read in The Silmarillion (if quotes are needed I can provide them), and Manwe gave to them and their descendants the choice to remain Elven or not.  Which leads to Arwen and Aragorn, where Arwen the half-elven chose to give up her immortality to wed Aragorn.


So, the 3 marriages tie into the Peredhil bunch.  And this was only a certain special group of people (Earendil and his descendants) that were given this honor of the 'choice.'  Where the marriage of Mithrellas and Imrazor was not.  Though technically by blood Galador was a half-elf, he had an elf mother and a mortal father, but he was not one of the Peredhil, because Manwe decided to reward Earendil for his deeds.


All the descendants and people of Dol Amroth (Imrahil, Finduilas, Adrahil...etc) have elven blood in them, which is remarked in the Lord of the Rings, but they were like Galador still mortal.  They weren't given the special choice by Manwe.  I guess that means the quick and simple answer is Mithrellas' and Imrazor's marriage wasn't 'special' in the sense that the other 3 unions were.  I hope that's understandable, it's a little jumbled and jumpy.  And that's just my input, the Peredhil were only the ones which Manwe gave the 'choice' to (Earendil, Elwing, and their descendants) so that just makes Tuor-Idril's, Beren-Luthien's, and Arwen-Aragorn's special and different from all the other unions between Elf and Man.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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thanks Boromir88
this does indeed make sense.

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I think your question still stands TM.

Lord Lorien, your explanation is elegant but limited.

As far as I can tell Peredhil, which simply means Half-Elven, was a title given to Elrond and Elros. I think it was used to imply there was something "special" about the union of Man and Elf, but not to specifically separate/elevate this particular family. Maybe it was the involvement of the Valar.

I think the key to the riddle is in the origin of the question. TM quotes the Numenorean Kings, so its quite plausible that they simply did not consider the union of Mithrellas and Imrazor important because it did not affect their (the Numenoreans) royal lineage directly. From an Elven point of view it doesnt really make sense to omit the 4th union of Man and Elf, so I have to think the Elves didn't place as much emphasis on such things, Dior being the example.

Im not sure what is meant by the long sundered branches of the Half-Elven, unless you are looking at the whole thing from the Mannish point of view (Elros and Elrond). And that only seems to have importance from the Second Age going forward.

Actually the interesting thing about the final union of Elf and Man is that it unites the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin in Lordship over Men (irony?). It also unites the blood of the Ainur, Elves (Noldor, Vanyar, and Teleri), and Men.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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indeed...however, the book was written not by Numeroneans, but by a Hobbit, a Hobbit which did indeed have access to many old documents, but still, which wrote the book from his point of view, at the beginning of the Fourth Age, a long time after these events had taken place.
indeed, perhaps the Master simply considered Mithrellas and Imrazor to be of less importance, but I still consider he should have counted them among the other 3 pairs...
but there is another possibility
perhaps Merry and Pippin did not know of the existence of this 4th union, even though considering the fact they personally knew Imrahil of Dol Amroth, I would think they learned of the history of his house, especially as they clearly knew he had Elvish blood.

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Might, there is one thing that you have to keep in mind when considering this matter: Mithrellas and Imrazor are only mentioned in UT.  Of the Unfinished Tales, the History of Galadriel and Celeborn contains the most variances to the accepted texts, not to mention itself.  You have to take most of UT with a grain of salt, but particularily the History of Galadriel and Celeborn, due to this very fact.


So as to why the union was not counted, the very fact that it only appears in UT may be your answer, since Tokien never provided further substantiation to the myth.


Now as for what happened to Mithrellas, Tolkien only says that "when she had borne him a son, Galador, and a daughter, Gilmith, she slipped away by night and he saw her no more." (UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn)



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Mithrellas herself is indeed only presented in the UT Elendil, but remember, the union of a Numeronean and an Elf that created the Line of Dol Amroth is mentioned in LOTR, and quite often.
It is clear in LOTR why Imrahil had Elvish blood, even though the name Mithrellas is never given.

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Im inclined to agree with TM on this one. The story in UT may not be canon, but the myth is certainly present in LoTR. And it does not appear to be disputed by Elrond, Galadriel or any other Elf in LoTR.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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In any case Mithrellas need not be an Elda according to the designation as presented in The Lord of the Rings.


She would be an East-elf (most of the Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien were East-elves) and not considered one of the Eldar. 



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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this theory does fit the situation, however that would directly mean that Mithrellas was one of the Avari
however, I am sure she was a Silvan Elf

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Indeed she was a Silvan Elf or Wood-elf but according to the designation as presented in The Lord of the Rings she would not be considered one of the Eldar.



-- Edited by Galin at 18:42, 2006-12-05

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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oh...I was not aware that Silvan Elves are not considered Eldar in LOTR
it would make sense, since the book was indeed written before the Sil, and before UT, and it wouldn't be the first time things he added later on didn't exactly agree with statements made previously

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Tolkien's ideas concerning the Telerin Tawarwaith (Wood-elves) can still work in my opinion. Generally speaking: all Elves are Eldar in that all Elves are 'Star-folk', but Eldar 'The People of the Great Journey' (Eldo dropping out of use), and then Eldar became the name of the West-elves as opposed to the East-elves. It's a bit confusing but compare to this anterior text for example...



'In any case, the Danas are sufficiently characterised as Elves of the Great March who abandoned it early on but who still felt a desire for the West (...) Their position is anomalous, and might equally well be classified either as Eldarin or as not Eldarin.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary The Lhammas HME V 


In Unfinished Tales Mithrellas is said to be not of the High Elves or the Grey. She is a Silvan Elf and could actually be better termed an 'East-elf' when desiring to distinguish her from the West-elves or Eldar '... the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).' Appendix F



-- Edited by Galin at 16:27, 2006-12-06

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