I recently saw a quote which tends to lean me towards pitying Orcs rather than hating them:
"For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Ilúvatar." (The silmarillion)
This highlighted part is the part of concern. Remember Orcs were probably (certainly not definately) Elves once. Instead of living there lives in communities of happiness and laughter, they were subject to the Dark Power and from then on always lived in hatred, misery, fear, filth etc. Think of the alternative life they could have had!
So the question is, Although we know Orcs were vile, merciless, cruel and had next to no chance of redemption in the world, 'Should they be pitied more than hated?'
-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 18:35, 2006-07-05
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Yes I totally agree Aredhel, however iI don't see people like Fingolfin, TM, Mos, Narg, Bauglir, Boromir, Eowyn, Maiar, Valar, Elendil, Avantguard, Beren, Atanvarne posting???
-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 09:53, 2006-06-18
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
I don't know about their destinies being the most tragic of all the creatures in Middle earth but I see where your coming from Aredhel. I wouldn't feel pity if I met one though i'm sure. It would probably kill me.
I think that the first Orcs, those that were corrupted suffered the worst fate anf most worthy of pity the ones born later were born after the way of the incarnates, they were not corrupted creatures.
I think that these Orcs aren't so worthy of pity, though their fate is after all a tragical one.
Well obviously later Orcs were not actually tortured themsleves but there lives were still as tragic as the others. Actually its possible that the first orcs that were tortured may have at least had some time as Elves whereas later Orcs didn't.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
yes, but the later Orcs (for example the goblins living in the Misty Mountains) could have changed their fate (indeed with great power of will) they could have perhaps kept living in the Mountains, but they could have stopped attacking travellers, and could have made peace with the others. the problem is they remained always the same I don't think that Orcs were evil I think that a baby Orc found by a Hobbit family and raised by them wouldn't be like other Orcs, but more like a Hobbit. so the problem is all baby Orcs born afterwards were raised in the same way - with evil and terror
The first Orcs were subject to torture and mutilation. Therefore the following generation of Orcs were to. Therefore all Orcs after have NEVEr known anything else but evil and terror becuase thats all the race of Orcs has ever known, right back to the first Orcs which were tortured.
Its like if you had been brought up without knowing anything but hate and evil and have always been around hateful and evil people then your not suddenly going to say 'Right i will make kindness my new years resolution'.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
still there are places where you can notice that some Orcs weren't necessarily bad or evil, but they did what they did because they were commanded to. For example Gorbag and Shagrat in their discussion on the way to Cirith Ungol do show a little thought of their own, and show they didn't necessarily want to be evil, but they had to.
But anyway, if it does go well, there should be a lot more room. What d'you say? – if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.' 'Ah! ' said Shagrat. `Like old times.' `Yes,' said Gorbag. 'But don't count on it. I'm not easy in my mind. As I said, the Big Bosses, ay,' his voice sank almost to a whisper, `ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks. But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too. But
Perhaps this showed greater evil in these two. They wanted to be free of commanding superiors and wanted to be under there own command. I doubt they would get up to any goodness if they did achieve this goal. However what your thinking of is that they would have been less evil becuase they were not serving Sauron. I can see that view as well.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
well, yes they probably wouldn't have done good things, but still, I find this quote important:
"But don't forget: the enemies don't love us any more than they love Him, and if they get topsides on Him, we're done too."
So they served him in order to survive. They knew that other people hated Orcs and they would have killed them if the had the chance. So their only hope of survival was to serve Sauron and defeat his enemies.
I wonder why, if they could escape, they did not either go into the East or south or far north. Or even the lands East of Middle-earth, at least then they would be safe from Sauron and the enemies.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
there are not many descriptions of the south but I believe the presence of Orcs is mentioned in that region and also, the Orcs used the term "monkey" as an insult and we are told that these "monkeys" lived in the forests in the far south so it seems clear that the Orcs were in the South or heard stories from Orcs that were other.
and in the East there were many tribes of Men that obeyed to Sauron.
All we know is that the Numenoreans sailed to them. BUT that therefore leads me to think it not impossible that the Haradwaith and the Eastern men could also sail to them. The Dark south land was only about 300 miles from the shores of Middle Earth and then the Lands of sun were about 400miles from the Dark south land.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
we know almost nothing about these Men and about their capabilities or about their interest in going to other lands. anyway, the idea is there were many Orcs that lived "freely" not under the command of Sauron nor under the command of Saruman. Even though most of the Orcs in the Misty Mountains were actually sent there by Sauron, they didn't obey him anymore and they, as you said, "escape" from under his rule. there is no need to think about Orcs in some far away lands, we have examples in Middle-earth.
I thought alot of the Orcs in the Misty mountains were NOT sent by Sauron and were just simply escapees from the War of Wrath which had adapted to the mountains?
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
you were saying before that orcs could have grown good and kind if they lived with hobbits or anyone else that's kind-but I don't think so-well,at least not for the orcs "today";) The first orcs may have had a possibility to change their nature, but after so many ages of corrumption, evil deeds and hate-I think that evil is in their blood-it's kind of genetic now;)
I pity and hate them-pity because of the same thing that Glorfindel said; but hate them because of what they did to those who they fought against, also, if the raised rebellion against Morgoth, then would he have destroyed them Because it was his army after all..
I guess the idea is he could destroy them as it was his army and Melkor anyway hated all of Arda, including his own "creations" as you and Mos showed in the Melkor or Sauron thread.
and you can see that Sauron sent the Orcs to settle in the Misty Mountains in the Appendix B of LOTR:
Third Age: c. 2480 - Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.
And I think it is mentioned in some other places that he sent the Orcs there.
This is a rather philosophical question. And I guess the answer is dependent on the type of person who is answering the question. I dont personally think the orcs were deserving of pity. As a race they are brutal and viscious. On the battlefield they will stop and eat a downed foe. They do not appear to have any redeeming qualities as a race.
I can say that the race should be pitied for how it came into being, but that is long forgotten.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
I do pity them, I think their destiny is the most tragical one of all Middle-earth creatures
Because it was his army after all..
