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Topic: Morgoth vs Sauron & absolute evil

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mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Jun 25, 2006
RE: Morgoth vs Sauron & absolute evil
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Firstly understand this lord Lorien:


WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT POWER SO STOP USING THIS TO CONCEAL YOUR FOLLY-FULL POINT.
We don't keep talking about power - we are talking asbout evil - we know that.


Secondly -



lord Lorien wrote:


 Since I have clearly shown with several quotes that Sauron conceived himself as Morgoth and wanted the exact thing as Morgoth, he was in the exact same "absolute satanic rebellion" that Morgoth was in, in the very least that can be said is he was equal to Morgoth's evilness (I never said he was equal to Morgoth's power, but both desired the exact same evils), because he wanted exactly what Morgoth wanted.  His desire was the exact same as Morgoth's. 





You could not be more wrong. I have answered this previosuly. Sauron did not want the same as Morgoth did:


"Hence   his   endeavour   always   to  break   wills  and  subordinate   them  to   or  absorb   them  into  his  own   will  and being,  before  destroying  their  bodies.  This  was  sheer  nihilism, and  negation  its  one  ultimate  object:  Morgoth  would   no  doubt, if  he  had  been  victorious,  have  ultimately  destroyed   even  his own  'creatures',  such  as  the Orcs,  when they  had served  his sole purpose   in   using   them:   the  destruction   of  Elves   and  Men. Melkor's  final  impotence  and  despair  lay  in  this:  that  whereas the  Valar  (and  in  their  degree  Elves  and  Men) could  still love 'Arda   Marred',   that  is   Arda   with  a   Melkor-ingredient,  and could  still  heal  this  or  that  hurt,  or  produce  from  its  very marring,  from  its  state  as  it  was,  things beautiful  and lovely, Melkor  could  do   nothing  with   Arda,  which   was  not   from  his own  mind  and   was  interwoven   with  the   work  and   thoughts  of others: even left  alone he  could only  have gone  raging on  till all was  levelled  again  into  a  formless  chaos.  And  yet  even  so  he would  have  been  defeated,  because  it  would still  have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.                


Sauron  had  never  reached  this  stage  of  nihilistic  madness. He did not  object to  the existence  of the  world, so  long as  he could do  what  he  liked  with  it.  He  still  had  the relics  of positive purposes,  that  descended  from  the  good  of  the  nature  in  which he  began:  it  had  been  his  virtue  (and therefore also  the cause of  his  fall,  and  of  his  relapse)  that  he  loved  order  and co- ordination,  and  disliked  all  confusion  and wasteful  friction. (It was  the  apparent  will  and  power  of Melkor  to effect  his designs quickly  and  masterfully  that  had  first  attracted Sauron  to him.)"
(Morgoth's ring)


 


READ THAT QUOTE!!!


 


Sauron wanted = the world to himself to dominate it under his control.


 


Morgoth wanted = The world to be destroyed - the very purpose of Eru to be marred, to thwart Eru as much as is possible.


 


MORGOTH'S DESIRE IS BY FAR WORSE.


 


NOW READ THIS BIT:


 


He  still  had  the relics  of positive purposes,  that  descended  from  the  good  of  the  nature  in  which he  began:...


 


Now don't go saying that this is not important - SAURON HAD POSITIVE PURPOSES STILL - HE STILL HAD 'GOOD' PURPOSES - THEREFORE MORGOTH DID NOT- THEREFORE MORGOTH ONLY HAD EVIL PURPOSES - THUS MAKING HIM MORE EVIL!!!


 


Lastly your whole theory seems to be based on Sauron having the same notions as Morgoth, but as I have proved that that is not the case, your theory is utterly foiled.



-- Edited by The One at 20:28, 2006-07-29

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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Jun 25, 2006
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Mouth of Sauron:


I appears Lord Lorien is unable to correctly interpretate what is put in front of him. Here is another quote:


"That it is untrue for my story, a mere reading of the synopses should show. The North was the seat of the fortresses of the Devil."


Watch how Lord Lorien twists this quote to show that Tolkien does not mean that Morgoth is THE devil - Satan.


Lord Lorien: Note that quote - THE DEVIL - NOT like the devil, Tolkien is clearly saying Morgoth is Satan here.



-- Edited by The One at 20:27, 2006-07-29

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Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Jun 26, 2006
RE: Morgoth vs Sauron & absolute evil
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"Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator. Olórin (Vol II p. 279) had been attached to Manwë."
(letter 200)

Morgoth it says here was the - 'Ultimate ineviatable rebel' - please note: 'THE inevitable rebel'.


Morgoth was THE Ultimate rebel of the world - THE ultimate rebel of Eru, I can put it no plainer.


"Sauron was 'greater' effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he [Sauron] also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself." ~ibid


Note: Sauron was not as lOW as Morgoth - he had not sunken so far into evil as Morgoth - your quote not mine.



-- Edited by The One at 20:32, 2006-07-29

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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
The One
The Creator
Status: Offline
Posts: 129
Date: Jun 27, 2006
RE: Morgoth vs Sauron & absolute evil
Permalink Closed

This topic seems conclusive. I cannot now see anymore benifit we can receive from it. Many thanks to the participants.


This thread is now closed for good.



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Though ye be the Ainur and Mightiest amongst them is Melkor, know that I am Iluvatar!
 
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