Three flaws with your quote Narguzir:

•  Says 'Rational beings' whereas Melkor was irrational (OK so you think you have rebuted this).
  
  
• Tolkien says '"In my story Sauron represents..." whereas in the first part he uses "in my myth". This suggests that when he says 'Myth' he is including all the history, but when he says 'Story' he is including a single story - most likely Lord of the Rings.
  
  
• Thirdly - It says 'Morgoth fell before the creation of the Phisical world' - this suggests that he is only counting Sauron evilest in the phisical world - which Morgoth was not part of.

AND this quote was presented originally by mos! You have one other marginal note as you entire feeble evidence presentation.
We have at least a few could quotes. If you want to end it now Narg then anyone who later reads this will soon take Melkor over sauron as you have not given enough quotes.

It puzzles me deeply how supposed Tolkien fans could say Sauron, the servant of melkor, who originally served Aule could possibly say he was more evil than the rebel of Eru - the one who contended with Eru directly, the Prime spirit of Evil, sauron's master, Satan figure in Tolkien Myth, Morgoth Bauglir - Black foe of the World.

LETS NOW GIVE OTHER QUOTES THAT SUGGEST WHICH WAS MORE EVIL. WE WON'T BE ABLE TO FIND A DIRECT QUOTES SO QUOTES SAYING 'WHICH WAS THE WORST REALM, WHO DID THE WORST DEEDS ARE NEEDED.

Could you list some of Sauron very worst deeds (only really bad ones like corrupting the Nazgul)

Read your own quote, mos.

"...was only less evil than his master in that for a long time he served another and not himself."

That implies that once he did serve himself (ie: the Third Age most notably), Sauron was the more evil of the two. Sauron was less evil that Melkor originally, yes. I've not got a problem with that. But once he broke away from his servitude to Melkor, and worked for himself, then he became more evil. That quote and the Letters quote say it.

"...a shadow of Morgoth..." -- Meaning that he was so similar to Melkor that he could be compared to his shadow (ie: something that has the exact same form).

"...walked behind him..." -- Uh, unless I'm mistaken, Melkor was sent into the Void long before Sauron was defeated, no? Thus meaning that of course Sauron walked behind him since Melkor went first.

As for stating events or "deeds" that happened in Tolkien's work that are considered "evil", that is not an acurate way to assess who is more evil. Since The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings focus only on certain parts of Middle-earth, and are told as a history written by some inhabitants of Middle-earth, we are not privy to all of the information. What happened in the east? In the south? In the new lands after the Akallabêth? You don't know. Also, your definition of evil may differ from Tolkien's. So things that you consider to be terribly evil may not have been viewed the same by JRRT.

Now, your three points, Glorfindel.

1) This is covered. Melkor is a rational being.

2) You said: "...in the first part he uses "in my myth"..." That is wrong. In the first part, he says:

"In my story I do not deal with Absolute Evil."

It would have been rather repetitive of him to have used the word 'story' three times in a row, no? Repetition is something that is often avoided on purposes in writing by using synonyms.

3) What does Melkor falling before the creation of Arda have to do with anything? Stating that Melkor fell before the creation of the world implies only that; do not put words into Tolkien's mouth. You do not know what Tolkien was suggesting with that sentence. Also, Melkor was most definately a part of the physical world, as I pointed out with my quote from Morgoth's Ring not long ago.

My question is this now though:
Why look for quotes that suggest when you now have two that state directly that Sauron was more evil?

TM - it looks like it will end that way but we are still discussing at the moment, I have just provided a direct qute and have more points on the way for when they think (note 'Think') they have rebuted it.

We still have to discuss the worst deeds of each.

Ya, double-posting but some more things came to me...

TM, the furthest I will go is that Sauron became just as evil as Morgoth.  Because anything further would be denying what was written.  We can't prove indefinitely that Sauron was more evil than Morgoth.  We are told that Sauron's will (note thats what the quote says it says his will) was as close to evil as is possible.  So, this means Morgoth could be equal with Sauron but can not be greater.

Some other things I wanted to point out is that.  Ok, so at one point (First Age) Morgoth was more evil than Sauron.  And after Morgoth's fall we have this quote:
When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was was not at first falsely done, but that sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of morgoth and the great wrath of the lords of the west.~The Silmarillion

Please answer this quote then:

Sauron  had  never  reached  this  stage  of  nihilistic  madness. He did not  object to  the existence  of the  world, so  long as  he could do  what  he  liked  with  it.  He  still  had  the relics  of positive purposes,  that  descended  from  the  good  of  the  nature  in  which he  began:  it  had  been  his  virtue  (and  therefore also  the cause of  his  fall,  and  of  his  relapse)  that  he  loved  order  and co- ordination,  and  disliked  all  confusion  and wasteful  friction. (It was  the  apparent  will  and  power  of Melkor  to effect  his designs quickly  and  masterfully  that  had  first  attracted Sauron  to him.)"
(Morgoth's Ring)

Note: he still had the relics of POSITIVE PURPOSES, Morgoth did not hence Morgoths purposes were all Evil whilst Sauron's were not. There we go if all the other unrebutable quotes don't satisfy you how about that!

When is Sauron named a rebel against Eru's will directly?

You did not answer my last post by the way.

When is Sauron named a rebel against Eru's will directly?~mos

Who says there has to be a direct quote all the time?  What Tolkien's definition of evil which I give in my last post, and the fact that Sauron goes against both.  Plus falsely repenting, claiming to be "Morgoth returned," and creating the One Ring so he could dominate the other races isn't enough for you to show that he was against Eru's plans?  If that's not enough perhaps the very fact that it was Eru who intervened and destroyed the Ring, is that enough proof to show that Sauron rebelled against Eru?
Frodo deserved all honour because he spend every last drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named'~Letter 192

If Eru intervening and getting the Ring destroyed isn't enough proof that Sauron was a rebel against him, than I don't know what will be.  If you're looking for a quote saying "Sauron rebelled against Eru," you're not going to find it,  but it sure as heck better be clear that he was.

Now as far as your quote:
Sauron  had  never  reached  this  stage  of  nihilistic  madness. He did not  object to  the existence  of the  world, so  long as  he could do  what  he  liked  with  it.  He  still  had  the relics  of positive purposes,  that  descended  from  the  good  of  the  nature  in  which he  began:

I think this just makes a better argument for Sauron, in the fact that he was able to more effectively "commit evil" than Morgoth was able.  And I'll get to that in a bit.  But first this just goes back to the original problem does a rational being having to be capable of rational thought?  In Tolkien's case, no it does not.  Yes, we know that Morgoth became incapable of rational thought, but does that change the fact that he was an Ainu and he was a spirit derived from Eru?  No it does not.  Just because he wasn't capable of thinking rationally does not change the fact that Morgoth was an Ainu, hence a spirit from Eru, therefor was and always will be a 'rational being.'

So, back track to why Sauron became more effective than Morgoth.  I thought what Tolkien felt "evil" was would help this thread out more, so in one of my last post it's right there quoted.  Tolkien felt like "evil" was to seek domination over other wills, and to rebel against Eru.  So, both Morgoth and Sauron fall into evil, because both wanted to do this.  However, Sauron was able to do this more effective...why?

1) He knew more about Eru's plans than Melkor did, because he didn't concentrate on what his plans were going to be, like Morgoth did.  Therefor he would have more knowledge as to what Eru's "music" was.

2) He did not slip into irrational madness like Morgoth did.  Morgoth is a rational being that slipped into irrational thought.  Sauron is a rational being that stayed, away from slipping into a "nihilistic madness."

3) Sauron was wiser than Morgoth, as Tolkien DOES directly state.  In order to gain domination over Arda Morgoth had to pour a lot of his power into it.  Sauron inherits this corruption and in this regard Tolkien says he is wiser than Morgoth:
Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth.~Morgoth's Ring
Also Tolkien tells us that Sauron became greater and more effective than Morgoth:
Sauron was 'greater' effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he [Sauron] also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavor to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself.~ibid

Then you are falsely convinced TM

I will state my reasons:

• If Sauron had relics of POSITIVE purposes and Melkor did not. THIS MAKES MELKOR MORE EVIL.
  


• Tolkien says melkor was the prime spirit of Evil - that is clearly saying Melkor is the first, Core, and greatest evil.
  


• He is called 'Black foe of the World' SAURON IS NOT
  


• Melkor's desire is to destroy Eru's creation, Sauron's is to dominate middle-earth. This means that melkor wants to destroy what Eru has planned utterly, whereas Sauron wants to dominate part of it. 'He did not obect to the existance of the world'.
  


• Melkor created the Orcs by twisted the children of Eru - Sauron never did a more horrific act.
  


• We know as a fact the Morgoths realm was worse than Sauron at the height of there power.
  


• Saurons enemy was the peoples of Middle-earth, Morgoths was Eru himself.
  


• Melkor destroyed the Tree's of Light, Sauron never did a more horrific act.
  


• Melkor caused the breaking between the eldar of Valinor.
  


• When Sauron came back with melkor in the Dagor dagorath he let morgoth take command. Why would he do this if he thought Morgoths purpose (evil) was less than his own purpose (evil).
  


• Morgoth destroyed the Pillars of light.
  


• Morgoth created the Trolls.
  


• Morgoth managed to turn Sauron to his worship in the first place from good to evil.
  


• In the Lord of the Rings Aragorn says 'For sauron himself is but a servant to the Great enemy'. - Note 'Great Enemy' - sauron is just  'The Enemy'.
  

I cannot beleive that you Boromir and Narguzir could possibly still keep your frail argument.

As for yourself TM you never agree with me of Mos111 so your view is utterly bias.

Thank you TM.  And I've been exactly trying to explain that it's very well Morgoth could have been just as evil as Sauron, but not greater.  And that in very beginning Morgoth indeed was more evil than Sauron.

Glorfindel:

• If Sauron had relics of POSITIVE purposes and Melkor did not. THIS MAKES MELKOR MORE EVIL.

I love how you leave the important parts of the quote out:
it  had  been  his  virtue  (and  therefore also  the cause of  his  fall,  and  of  his  relapse)  that  he  loved  order  and co- ordination,  and  disliked  all  confusion  and wasteful  friction.
You so conveniently just ignore this which is more important in understanding the quote.  Sauron had "relics" of positive purposes which Tolkien names them here as Order and co-ordination.  But what you ignore is what is important, it was these very "positive virtues" that caused Sauron's downfall towards evil.  Have you ever heard of "excessive pride."  Pride can be a positive virtue, but to the point of arrogance it's not positive anymore.  Same with Sauron, but he had excessive order and co-ordination...and excessive order= domination/control which Tolkien says= Evil.

• Tolkien says melkor was the prime spirit of Evil - that is clearly saying Melkor is the first, Core, and greatest evil.

"Prime" does not mean the greatest evil, it means he was the first evil, he was the sower of discord.  There's no refuting that he was the "first evil," but that doesn't mean he wasn't insurpassable.

• He is called 'Black foe of the World' SAURON IS NOT

And this has to do with Morgoth being more evil...because?  Sauron had his own names, he  called himself "Morgoth returned."

• Melkor's desire is to destroy Eru's creation, Sauron's is to dominate middle-earth. This means that melkor wants to destroy what Eru has planned utterly, whereas Sauron wants to dominate part of it. 'He did not obect to the existance of the world'.

Umm, show me where Melkor didn't want to control the world...because I can actually show otherwise:
To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth~Morgoth's Ring 

Great one Boromir - love how you dismiss half my points and incorrectly rebut the other half!

'Great enemy' - this is clearly not refering to power - this is CLEARLY stating that Morgoth was the greatest (evilest) Enemy of Arda 'Black foe of the world'.

You also fail to know what the DAGOR DAGORATH is. Have you never heard of the LAST BATTLE??? Its the battle that takes place between Morgoth and the Valar, in Valinor itself, the greatest battle of Tolkien's myth - the End of the world, long after the time of the Ring.

In this battle Melkor breaks through the door to the night and Sauron returns also. So as this takes place long after SAURONS DOMINION why would Sauron just bow to melkor and allow him to take command if he thought his evil less then his? I will tell you why, becuase Morgoth has evil been the lord of evil, the creator of evil, he is actually what EVIL is if you see what i mean.

Glorfindel, for the Dagor Dagorath I admit I have not heard about that before.

Also, I answered every single one of your points.  The reason I said "explained above" is because it goes along with other points that you already made before, and I already answered.  I'm not going to repeat the explanation to the same points 4-5 times, if it's already explained previously.

Great= a term of power and might, go check it out for yourself.  Tolkien uses evil, sin, and ungood to describe evil itself.  Never does he use the term great.  Because "great" doesn't denote evil.

Incorrectly rebut the rest?  How do I incorrectly rebut the rest when I have what Tolkien wrote to support it?  You have been the one to have continually ignore what has been said, not only by me but also by Narg.  I have shown that Sauron was more effective, wiser, and more knowledgeable when it came to the Music of the Ainur than Morgoth was.  And there's Tolkien's exact words that Sauron's will was as close to evil as is possible.

I love how you just go along and ignore the very basis of your argument.  Your own personal opinion of what a rational being is, is your own personal opinion.  But, you can't use that to further your argument especially since Tolkien told us what a "rational being" in his story was.  And you continually ignore the fact that it doesn't matter if Morgoth could only think irrationally, that does not change the fact that he is an Ainu.  Ainur are spirits from Eru, therefor he is still a rational being.  Just because Morgoth was incapable of rational thought does not change the fact that he was an Ainu from Eru which=rational being in Tolkien's world.  And that right there is your whole argument.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread, and this forum.  I now see why when I asked some plaza members to come here in order to help this forum out why they all turned it down.  Thank you everyone for the invite, good luck.

Opened at special request - 

"It  is said  that they  were first  contrived by Feanor, the greatest of  all the  makers among  the Elves.  His purpose was  not  evil, yet  in it  was the  Great Enemy  But they  were stolen by  the  Great  Enemy  and  brought  to  Middle-earth.  Three  Rings he made, the Rings of Earth, Sea and Sky."
(Treason of Isengard)

"As the stars above the mists of the Northern lands was her loveliness, and in her face was a shining light. In those days the Great Enemy, of whom Sauron of Mordor was but a servant, dwelt in Angband in the North, and the Elves of the West coming back to Middle-earth made war upon him to regain the Silmarils which he had stolen; and the fathers of Men aided the Elves. But the Enemy was victorious and Barahir was slain, and Beren escaping through great peril came over the Mountains of Terror into the hidden Kingdom of Thingol in the forest of Neldoreth."
(Lord of the Rings)

"There he beheld Lúthien singing and dancing in a glade beside the enchanted river Esgalduin; and he named her Tinúviel, that is Nightingale in the language of old. Many sorrows befell them afterwards, and they were parted long. Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father. Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband, and he died in the arms of Tinúviel."
(Lord of the Rings)

Note: Even in Lord of the Rings They class Morgoth as the Great enemy and not Sauron, and that is when he is out in space, impotent, has not been seen for 6000 years.

"Man  is  subsequent  to  and  a  consequence  (though  not  a  necessary   l consequence)  of  the  'Fall  of  the  Angels':  a rebellion  of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World'  in its nature: evil was brought in  from outside,  by Satan.  In this  Myth the rebellion  of  created free-will  precedes creation  of the  World (Ea); Ea  has in  it, subcreatively  introduced, evil,  rebellious, discordant elements  of  its  own nature  already when  the Let  it Be  was spoken."
(Morgoth's ring)

Here we see Tolkien comparing Satan to melkor 'Brought in from outside'. Now unless your proposing there is another devil eviler than satan I think this is conclusive.

CHECK OUT THIS QUOTE!!!:

"They thus appeared as 'old' sage figures. But in this 'mythology' all the 'angelic' powers concerned with this world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the absolute Satanic rebellion and evil of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the fainéance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods'."
(letter 156 I think)

Note: 'Absolute satanic rebellion of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron' - Sauron is not the satanic rebellion - Morgoth is.

"Sauron was of course not 'evil' in origin. He was a 'spirit' corrupted by the Prime Dark Lord (the Prime sub-creative Rebel) Morgoth."
(letter 153)

"Sauron had been attached to the greatest, Melkor, who ultimately became the inevitable Rebel and self-worshipper of mythologies that begin with a transcendent unique Creator. Olórin (Vol II p. 279) had been attached to Manwë."
(letter 200)

Here we see that Sauron became attached with the 'Ultimate inevitable rebel Morgoth', whilst Olorin had become attached to Manwe.

"Melkor - The Quenya name for the great rebellious Vala, the beginning of evil, in his origin the mightiest of the Ainur; afterwards named Morgoth, Bauglir, the Dark Lord, the Enemy, etc. The meaning of Melkor was 'He who arises in Might'; the Sindarin form was Belegûr, but it was never used, save in a deliberately altered form Belegurth 'Great Death'".
(Index of names The silmarillion)

"Melkor, originally the most powerful  of the Valar,(4) had become a rebel, against his  brethren and against Eru, and was the prime Spirit of Evil."
(Morgoths ring)

CHECK OUT THIS QUOTE!!!:

"The whole  of  Arda  (and  indeed  probably  many  other  parts of Ea) had been marred by him. Melkor was  not just  a local  Evil on Earth,  nor  a  Guardian  Angel  of  Earth who  had gone  wrong: he was the Spirit of Evil, arising even before the  making of  Ea. His attempt to dominate  the  structure  of  Ea,   and  of   Arda  in particular, and alter the designs  of Eru  (which governed  all the operations  of  the  faithful  Valar),  had  introduced evil,  or a tendency  to  aberration  from  the design,  into all  the physical matter  of Arda."
(Morgoths ring)

Note: HE WAS NOT A GUARDIAN ANGEL GONE WRONG - LIKE SAURON WAS.  He was  THE SPIRIT OF EVIL.

There is many quote above some giving reasonable definitions of Morgoth being more evil, some giving direct statements.

Boromir88 - I will gladly have another round if only you would argue all points effectively. I don't deny your post is worthy of replying to, but please stop twisting qutotes and words:

'Absolute satanic figure' = Morgoth is satan in the myth, Sauron is not. THIS MEANS that Morgoth is the LORD of Demons, Lord of Darkness, Lord of Evil = the evilest. YOU CANNOT look at this in any other way.

Note: 'Absolute satanic rebellion of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron' - Sauron is not the satanic rebellion - Morgoth is.

Actually this quote just furthers my own argument.  Absolute satanic rebellion of Morgoth AND his satellite Sauron.  This quote combines the two of them, both were of "absolute satanic rebellion."  You should NOTE the word AND instead of just completely ignoring it.

WHAT!!! Where on earth did you get that idear from????

'Absolute satanic rebellion of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron' = This clearly means that Morgoth was the satanic rebellion whilst Sauron was his inferior servant to that rebellion - NOT that Sauron was his equal - I recommend you read the quote again.

Boromir88 wrote:

---

'Absolute satanic figure' = Morgoth is satan in the myth, Sauron is not. THIS MEANS that Morgoth is the LORD of Demons, Lord of Darkness, Lord of Evil = the evilest. YOU CANNOT look at this in any other way.~mos
That is your attached definition.  In Christianity, Satan is the the most evil being, but we aren't talking about christianity here, are we?  The quotes compare Morgoth ot Satan in that he was the "beginner of discord," he fell before the creation of the world, not in the sense that you want it to be.
'Absolute satanic rebellion OF Morgoth AND his satellite Sauron' It is you who have misunderstood this.  Both Morgoth AND Sauron were in "absolute satanic rebellion."  That's what it says, it's right there, I can't explain it any clearer.This clearly means that Morgoth was the satanic rebellion whilst Sauron was his inferior servant to that rebellion - NOT that Sauron was his equal - I recommend you read the quote again.Wow, I wonder where you come up with some of these meanings of quotes.  You just start pulling up stuff and making up things that aren't there.  Sauron was a satellite of Morgoth, but that is referring to their power, what's that got to do with evil? The quote says BOTH were in satanic rebellion, not just Morgoth, again note the AND, meaning both of them.

---

Firstly you say "but we aren't talking about christianity here, are we?" In fact yes we a5re. Tolkien was a christian and based virtually everything on a relation to Christianity. Eru was the God overall, and he created Melkor. This is exactly the same as christianity. God created Satan who turned out to rebel against him.
Hence we must assume, unless you can prove otherwise that morgoth was the Satan of Tolkien's world - hence, like the real satan who Tolkien based Morgoth on, is the most evil.

'Absolute satanic rebellion OF Morgoth AND his satellite Sauron'  = IF Tolkien meant both Morgoth and Sauron was absolute satanic figure, then Tolkien would have said this:

'Absolute satanic rebellion OF Morgoth AND Sauron'  -  Simple as that.

Boromir - I will give you an excellent example.

Hitler and Pol pot.

Hitler wanted a race of his own and to have dominion as sole controller.

Pol pot wanted everything to be utterly destroyed and go back to zero - he wanted the world and everything in it save himself destroyed.

I ask you which is more evil if you honestly think the former then there is no hope for you.

Also read this again:

'Absolute satanic rebellion OF Morgoth AND his satellite Sauron'

Note: Sauron was Morgoth's satellite of evil. sauron was Morgoth's evil, a useful chesspiece in the mind of Morgoth - nothing more.

Note: HE WAS NOT A GUARDIAN ANGEL GONE WRONG - LIKE SAURON WAS.  He was  THE SPIRIT OF EVIL.

Where on earth did you get that from? NOTE THIS:

He was  THE SPIRIT OF EVIL.

Boromir wrote:

In you opinion yes. Morgoth derived from Eru so does this mean that he can never be irrational? If so then are you telling me that Tolkien never had a mad or insane person in his entire myth???