Couple of points - Firstly this quote could be talking about Lord of the Rings, as Tolkien says 'In my story', as opposed to his entire world which he uses the word 'Myth' for - 'In my myth morgoth...'
This means that if this sentence was talking about his whole world he probably would have used 'Myth' instead of 'Story', refering to a single story.

Secondly:

"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible."

Tolkien did not need to say 'as near an appraoch as to any rational being can get' becuase he has already said that in this sentence:

 I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil.

As we have agreed, Melkor cannot be wholly evil since that does not exist in Tolkiens eyes, irrational or not. However he does state that no Rational being is wholly evil, but this sentence:

He was aware, at any rate originally when he was capable of rational thought , that he could not annhialate them {Elves and Men]..."

Clearly states that Melkor is irrational, so Morgoth could be eviler than Sauron becuase Sauron is only as evil as Rational beings get, whilst not being wholly evil.

He was originally rational yes Narguzir, but through power and Might he he grew to be an irrational tyrant. Are you desputing that the quote I provided, says he was not capable of rational thought at the latter part of his reign?

Would you like me to get another quote, one that does not directly say he was irrational like this one does, but a good one all the same?

I have seen this point presented on the Plaza and i thought it was inadequate then let alone now.

If you cannot see that this quote:

He was aware, at any rate originally when he was capable of rational thought , that he could not annhialate them {Elves and Men]..."

is stating that Morgoth was Irrational when he was not capable of rational thought, at the latter part of his reign, then the discussion is ended. There is a clear cut distinction between both. The quote states that Morgoth was not capable of rational thought - thus making him irrational at the end of his reign.

If you are not capable of Rational thought, then you are only capable of irrational thought - thus making you Irrational - not rational.

If this is what your disputing Narg, then I am afraid I expected more from you in this discussion.

So what your saying is thus:

Morgoth was rational despite being incapable of rational thought?

Good quotes there Glorfindel!

Lets see if we are going to get any other people commenting.

Yes I have read the quote. To me it says that all beings are rational that derive from Eru's mind. Agreed? Melkor originated from Eru's mind agreed? But that quote does not say that beings, who originated from Eru's mind, are not capable of later turing irrational, unless I have misread the latter part of it?

Addmitedly I was a bit persistant with the realm of Morgoth thread, but I need more time to find a suitable quote, and in the end I did. If you are not capable of debating with Tolkien enthusiasts, then what can i do?

This is where we a conflicting then Narg.

I have agreed with all you say. All beings derived from Eru are rational. But where does it say that beings cannot turn irrational later on? If you can quote that then i step down on that point, but there still are a number of other points for you to flaw before we can even accept Sauron as equal to Melkors evil.

Narg - i don't want to argue with you, I am just trying to challenge you. I pay as deep as respect for you as The might, but I use it in a different way, i try to challenge you rather than flatly agree with whatever you say. I see no problem in this? Surely its more fun for you?

A good question Narg. However I can answer.

Morgoth grew in contemp for all things that live save himslef, he grew to envy and loathe Erus works and all other beings. He put forth power into the destruction of the world and the Valar and stopped at nothing to accomplish his goal.

"Hence his endeaver always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer negation and its one ultimate object: Morogth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them, the destruction of Elves and Men...Melkor could do nothing with arda, which was not from his own mind and was interwoven with the works and thoughts of others: even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos". Morgoths ring.

If you think this desire is that of a rational being you are sadly mistaken.

Like I said before, I'm not even going to bother. You clearly won't listen to what I'm saying. Have fun discussing things that make no sense.

I'm not taking things personally. It is annoying when I've answered the same question numerous times, but I'm not taking anything personally on my part. But why not take it seriously? Is it not a serious topic of interest for those involved? If it is not, then why discuss it?

mos111 -- Why can he not turn irrational? Again, I've answered this before. Look at my second-last post in this thread (third-last with this post, I suppose), and it's explained right there.

Your example is flawed as well. In the first part you speak about evil: a characteristic, an attribute. Rationality and irrationality in this case are not something like that. They are a state of being--one that remains constant. Can you not see the difference?

Another quote for you (the first part is used above, the rest is all new):

"Hence   his   endeavour   always   to  break   wills  and subordinate   them  to   or  absorb   them  into   his  own   will  and being,  before  destroying  their  bodies.  This  was  sheer  nihilism, and  negation  its  one  ultimate  object:  Morgoth  would   no  doubt, if  he  had  been  victorious,  have  ultimately  destroyed   even  his own  'creatures',  such  as  the Orcs,  when they  had served  his sole purpose   in   using   them:   the  destruction   of  Elves   and  Men. Melkor's  final  impotence  and  despair  lay  in  this:  that  whereas the  Valar  (and  in  their  degree  Elves  and  Men) could  still love 'Arda   Marred',   that   is   Arda   with  a   Melkor-ingredient,  and could  still  heal  this  or  that  hurt,  or  produce  from  its  very marring,  from  its  state  as  it  was,  things beautiful  and lovely, Melkor  could  do nothing  with   Arda,  which   was  not   from  his own  mind  and  was  interwoven   with the work and thoughts  of others: even left  alone he  could only  have gone  raging on  till all was  levelled  again  into  a  formless  chaos. And  yet  even  so  he would  have  been  defeated,  because  it  would still  have 'existed', independent of his own mind, and a world in potential.                

Sauron  had  never  reached  this  stage  of  nihilistic  madness. He did not  object to  the existence  of the  world, so  long as  he could do  what  he  liked  with  it.  He  still  had  the relics  of positive purposes,  that  descended  from  the  good  of  the  nature  in  which he  began:  it  had  been  his  virtue  (and  therefore also  the cause of  his  fall,  and  of  his  relapse)  that  he  loved  order  and co- ordination,  and  disliked  all  confusion  and wasteful  friction. (It was  the  apparent  will  and  power  of Melkor  to effect  his designs quickly  and  masterfully  that  had  first  attracted Sauron  to him.)"
(Morgoth's Ring)

Lets put aside the part about 'Rational and irrational' above and talk about this quote shall we?

By your reckoning then Beren all Ainur are of the same power, evilness/goodness, Strength etc?

So Tulkas was not the best wrestler, Eonwe was no stronget in might of arms and Melkor was not the powerfullest of the Valar?

"Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä."
(The silmarillion)

So to your reckoning these quote are utterly faulse? If Melkor can be the most powerful he can be the evilest as well.

"Chief among the Maiar of Valinor whose names are remembered in the histories of the Elder Days are Ilmarë, the handmaid of Varda, and Eönwë, the banner-bearer and herald of Manwë, whose might in arms is surpassed by none in Arda."
(The silmarillion)

Tolkien defines that anything against the will of Eru is evil. So by this following quote we can assume that melkor is both evil and the evilest of all:

"Melkor,  originally  the  most  powerful   of  the Valar,(4) had become a  rebel,  against  his  brethren  and  against Eru, and was the prime Spirit of Evil."(Morgoths ring)

I think that sums it up don't you?