Greetings friends. I am only new to this forum, joined of an interest to to speak with the wise on subjects of Ea. I have some thoughts on the creation of orcs that I would like to share, and I hope I am not being redundant by posting info that has already been discussed (though I read the majority of this string, there was much to digest).
Though the validity of the Sil has been called into question, I will refer to "The Coming Of The Elves": "But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the councils of Melkor? Yet it is held true by the wise of Eressea that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of Orcs in envy and Mockery of the elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."
So we can see that at least the Vanyar and the Noldor viewed the Orcs as being the Avari, whom we know were influenced from the beginning by Melkor not to follow Orome. Quote "Of The Sindar":
"And ere long the evil creatures came even to Belariand... and amoung them were the Orcs, who afterward wrought ruin in Belariand: ,but they were yet few and wary and did but smell out the ways of the land, awaiting the return of their lord. Whence they came, or what they were. the elves knew not then, thinking them perhaps to be Avari who had become evil and savage in the wild; in which they guessed all too near, it is said."
Well now we can see that the Telari also held the the Orcs to be sprung from the Avari, but they did not perceive the influence of Melkor in this, as did those who passed into the West, thinking only their hardships in the wild to have influenced their fell manor.
Regardless, we see that the Orcs were present long before the awakening of the Atani, indeed long before the the darkening of Valinor or the captivity of Melkor.
Well I have much more to say on the subject, but we'll see if this still gets any bites first. Namarie
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The wolf howls. The ravens flee. The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea. The captives sad in Angband mourn. Thunder rumbles, the fires burn- And Finrod fell before the throne.
I agree with this. Although much has already been mentioned its good to have it summarised. But then again to use Galin's argument The Silmarillion originates mostly from HOME which is sketchy. Nothing is certain.
After reading this whole thread, I'm still not convinced one way or the other. Or one way or the other ten possibilities. This is another "Do Balrogs have wings?" if you ask me.
I'm not sure that it is addressed in HOME, but considering that Christopher Tolkien spoke in Lost Tales about the inconsitencies in Sil, and even his regrets for publishing it as he did, if we are going to discredit the quotes I provided earlier, then we can also call into question this quote, also from "Of The Coming Of The Elves":
"...naught that had life of its own, or the semblance of life could Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the beginning; so say the wise"
And then, could not Melkor have created the Orcs from the Earth, as Aule created the Dwarves?
It seems likely to me that is any of the Maiar were indeed in the likeness of Orcs, they would have chosen that shape, perhaps in immitation of the Orcs that existed, as they were free to do, and not have been placed into that form by Melkor.
One last point that I have not seen mentioned before in this thread, and it does indeed come from a published work, is the Uruk-Hai were...(hours of searching for the quote have turned up no results)...a warrior orc, created by breeding orcs with men. So if they were created from men, it seems unnessacary to breed them with men, to bring on the traits thereof, since they would already carry these traits.
I hope you're not all exhausted with this old thread, because I find it very interesting
Namarie
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The wolf howls. The ravens flee. The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea. The captives sad in Angband mourn. Thunder rumbles, the fires burn- And Finrod fell before the throne.
I don't feel it's so much about discrediting anything from Silmarillion but looking at the bigger picture, including the extant texts and considering the external progression of ideas as far as we can know.
With respect to the debate on Uruks versus Uruk-hai, I have seen a thread (not here) with over 600 responses debating the finer points.
-- Edited by Galin on Friday 17th of April 2009 01:38:37 PM
"It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"
This does seem to indicate that These Uruk-Hai were not afraid of sunlight becuase Saruman blended Men with Orcs. If Orcs were already blended with Men why were they still afraid of Sunlight?
Also on a little less convincing, but valid note, it is always held true that Elves were not quite as large or as strong as Men (mostly). Remembering the tales of Turin for one and many other indications besides. Now this follows nicely that if Orcs were originally bred from Elves they would be weaker and smaller than the variety later bred by Saruman from Men creating the Uruk-Hai.
I would note that Treebeard wonders however, and does not know. In Merry's description in The Two Towers (and Merry had had experience with the Uruk-hai)...
'And there were battalions of Men, too. (...) Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired, and grim but not particularly evil-looking. But there were some others that were horrible: man-high but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were.
'I thought of him too,' said Aragorn. 'We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm's Deep.' Flotsam And Jetsam
-- Edited by Galin on Friday 17th of April 2009 01:40:39 PM
"But there were some others that were horrible: man-high but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed. Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not so obviously orc-like as most of these were."
This indicates that the things Merry describes in the latter part of the statement are clearly not just Orcs (becuase he says 'with Goblin faces') but must be Orcs bred with men becuase they remind him of the southerner at Bree? This therefore means that the normal every day Orcs cannot be bred from Men otherwise they would look the same as these Uruk-Hai?
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Glorfindel1235 wrote: This indicates that the things Merry describes in the latter part of the statement are clearly not just Orcs (becuase he says 'with Goblin faces') but must be Orcs bred with men becuase they remind him of the southerner at Bree?
I agree, these do not seem to be regular Orcs in my opinion.
And some might be more Orc-like than others, perhaps leaving the more man-like types as better for spying.
-- Edited by Galin on Friday 17th of April 2009 01:47:37 PM
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