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Topic: What did they see?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Apr 17, 2006
What did they see?

My question is what have Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas seen in the night they slept near Fangorn?
And here I refer to the old man in a cloak not to the tree near them, so please don't bring that tree in the discussion.
"Suddenly Gimli looked up, and there just on the edge of the fire-light stood an old bent man, leaning on a staff, and wrapped in a great cloak; his wide-brimmed hat was pulled down over his eyes. Gimli sprang up, too amazed for the moment to cry out, though at once the thought flashed into his mind that Saruman had caught them. "Both Aragorn and Legolas, roused by his sudden movement, sat up and stared. The old man did not speak or make, sign."

I personally believe it was Saruman, just as Gandalf says:
'Wait a minute!' cried Gimli. 'There is another thing that I should like to know first. Was it you, Gandalf, or Saruman that we saw last night?'
'You certainly did not see me,' answered Gandalf, 'therefore I must guess that you saw Saruman. Evidently we look so much alike that your desire to make an incurable dent in my hat must be excused.'
'Good, good!' said Gimli. 'I am glad that it was not you.'
Gandalf laughed again. 'Yes, my good Dwarf,' he said, 'it is a comfort not to be mistaken at all points. Do I not know it only too well! But, of course, I never blamed you for your welcome of me. How could I do so, who have so often counselled my friends to suspect even their own hands when dealing with the Enemy. Bless you, Gimli, son of Glóin! Maybe you will see us both together one day and judge between us!'
(TTT, The White Rider)

"'Now I understand a part of last night's riddle,' said Legolas as he sprang lightly upon Arod's back. 'Whether they fled at first in fear, or not, our horses met Shadowfax, their chieftain, and greeted him with joy. Did you know that he was at hand, Gandalf?'
'Yes, I knew,' said the wizard. 'I bent my thought upon him, bidding him to make haste; for yesterday he was far away in the south of this land. Swiftly may he bear me back again!'"

I might however be wrong, but does anyone have other ideas which they can bakc up with proof here?



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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Apr 21, 2006
Well Gandalf says to the Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas that he thinks it must have been Saruman as it certainly wasn't him. But if it is not Saruman it appears it does not really matter as he clearly had little part in the story outline except a bit of Mystery outside Fangorn.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Apr 21, 2006
umm...
I think I already knew it was a mystery but if I don't ask how should I find out if there was nothing behind the mystery?
I was hoping that perhaps someone could clear the mystery, so if you don't have an answer you can't help me.
And this mystery is not one of the small ones, if that was not Saruman who could that have been?
Old men don't simply walk near Fangorn.

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Elf of Rivendell - Rank 2
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Date: Apr 24, 2006

Id say it might have been Radagast, who actually did love nature, or it even might have been Tom Bombadil, who we know to be a misterious figure aswell, and by some tails he is told maybe even to be one of the Maiar/Valar. So yet as it remains a mistery, id say it was one of them, for i dont believe Saruman would have left his tower.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Intersting ideas there, anyway good ideas.
But it couldn't have been Radagast as we are clearly told he had little part in the War of the Ring, all he did was help the others by sending birds or animals to spy on the forces of Sauron or of Isengard, and of course he was the one who sent Gwaihir to free Gandalf from Orthanc. But we can be sure it was not him on the borders of Fangorn, as he did not wear a white robe.
Tom Bombadil is indeed a very good idea, but we are clearly told in some quotes, that
"But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them."
(lotr, he council of Elrond)
as you see, Tom Bombadil would have never gone there, for the simple reason that he wasn't interested at all in what happened there.
But, indeed, it could have been another Maia (not a Vala, as they had decided to stay out of the problems of Middle-earth since the end of the War of Wrath).
There is however a quote that makes me think it was Saruman:
"They were brought to Fangorn, and their coming was like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains. Even as we talk here, I hear the first rumblings. Saruman had best not be caught away from home when the dam bursts!"
(lotr, the white rider)
Also when the Ents reached Isengard, Saruman was outside which might suggest he had been gone somewhere.
This is the only proof for Saruman that I can think of. But, as you said, it could have been another Maia. Maybe it was just left out, as a mystery.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I severely doubt it was Tom Bombadil. Fangorn was over 800 miles from his homeland and he is not the master outside his domain.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006

If you wanted to be really mysterious you could say it was either Pallando or Allatar, the Blue wizards from the east.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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hehe, lol
funny idea.
and frankly among all the possibilities, this is the best one except Saruman
of course they wore blue robes, but who knows.
there are quotes saying they might have been corrupted by Sauron. But unfortunately all quotes also say they never returned.
So it couldn't have been them.
Still, good idea mouthofsauron.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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The Might wrote:


But unfortunately all quotes also say they never returned. So it couldn't have been them.


Partly correct. I belive most quotes say that they never returned to the west but nothing is known of what became of them, therefore one may assume that they could have returned without knowing.


Although hugely unlikely, it could be a possibility.



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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 12, 2006
if they never returned to the west how could they have returned.
not very logical

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006

Well I suppose what Glorfindel1235 is saying does make a bit of sense.


Tolkien actually made a flaw in his writing! If nothing is known of what became of them then how do we know that they did not return to the West???



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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no it makes no sense.
we know they didn't come to the west + we don't know what happened to them = we know they remained in the east but don't know what exactly they did there

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No we are told that "Nothing is known of them". Therefore Tolkien saying they 'never returned to the west' is contradicting his own words.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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can you think logically for a second?
what you said is nonsense.
he says they didn't come to the west.
so they were in the east.
he says we don't know what happened to them
the final idea is we don't know what happened to them in the east.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: May 12, 2006

Can you think logically for a moment - If nothing is known of them how can Tolkien say they never returned to the West?!?!



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 12, 2006
ok, enough.
actually, that isn't even the case.
here is the quote:
"but unlike him never returned into the Westlands"
"the Blue Wizards were destined to journey in those regions and to remain there."
"for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known"
as I always say, quotes are all.
your whole theory is nothing.
the term not known doesn't refer to where they remained, but to what exactly they did, if they stayed true to the cause or if they joined Sauron.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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We sure do disagree on many thing don't we The Might? But remember, although i still support the possibility - it was Glorfindels idear.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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you were still wrong about it.
and yes, unfortunately we seem to disagree on a lot of things.
but I enjoy discussing with you...better then simply say, yes I agree.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yes. I assume you, like me, use the 'recent post' tab to reply as fast as possible?

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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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you got me there...I always use the recent posts tab.
and many times I can't post because there isn't enough time between posts...

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Yeah I get that. Thats to stop spam but it don't stop me!


I have competitions seeing if your gonna go first and leave me with all the posts answered. Do you do the same?



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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 12, 2006
no, actually I think you win for the night...
I have to wake up at 7 tomorrow and I am one timeline later then you...so you have approx 10:20 there...I have 11:20
doesn't matter...anyway, I know I should normally PM you about this, but I'll do it here...
sorry about my overreaction earlier...I know it was only a normal remark from you.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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No prob. I will be on most of tommorow so we can continue then!

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My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: May 12, 2006
that is the problem...I won't be on at all this weekend.
tomorrow all work, then party in the evening, and sunday a school project...
damn school...

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Gondor Civilian - Rank 1
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Date: Jul 3, 2006
 Okay.. Here is my opinion on what they saw outside the forest at fangorn. I believe that they saw saruman. Since Gandolf told gimili it was not him. I also believe that Saruman would have left his tower.. He was after the ring.. and believed that either merry, or pipin.. were in possession of it. he probley left his tower to claim the ring from the orcs as soon as possible.not counting on loosing the hobbits when the rohirrim attacted the group of orcs.

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Peoples of Beleriand - Rank 1
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Date: Jul 3, 2006
For my part I agree with the Saruman idea, or perhaps what they saw was akin to an elvish dream, experiencing a phantom of the past in the waking world, a ghost perhaps of some long distant old man, lost on the borders of Fangorn and doomed to walk it's bounds forever, warning it's visitors of his fate...

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The President of Funky (self-appointed)
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Date: Jul 8, 2006
that is a really good idea Annwen...
never thought of that
Saruman clearly couldn't wait to receive the Ring so he quickly went to get it...unfortunately the Orcs had been destroyed and he only saw Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli
that would make sense considering the fact that the battle where the Orcs were destroyed took place not far away from the camp of the 3 hunters...makes sense to me

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Black Numenorean - Rank 3
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   If you read the Intrioduction of the book by Tolkein, he state that there are still some minor mistakes within the text, but he had niether the time nor the inclination to correct them. This is probably one of them, as is the debate of who was first, Bombadil, or Treebeard.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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well, this is a very much corrected edition, and not the first edition
and I doubt that in this case Tolkien made a mistake or forgot something
I think he wrote that on purpose to give the story a touch of mystery and also to maybe make us ask ourselves who that was

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