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Topic: Ungoliant

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Narguzir
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Ungoliant
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Alright, well, we were basically intruding upon the Beorn thread and so I've started this new one to discuss Ungoliant.


So far, there are two schools of thought:



1) Ungoliant was one of the Ainur.
2) She was not an Ainur.


Quotes and a little discussion have gone on back and forth in THIS (<-- link) topic, so I would suggest reading the relevant posts there beforehand so that you don't bring up a point that has already been covered.



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Glorfindel
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Then where do you propose the Ainur and Eru dwell if not in the Void or the out darkness of Ea nor in Arda itself?

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Narguzir
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In the Halls of Ilúvatar. It's a seperate place, not of or in either the Void or Eä.



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Glorfindel
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The halls of Iluavtar does not make up a whole new sector in the Void if that is what you are imposing. Could you find a quote saying that it does so?

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mouth of sauron
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As far as i know the halls of Iluvatar were in the space which seperates the Void from the Ea itself.

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Narguzir
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"Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Ilúvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void." (The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)


This clearly shows that the "dwelling of Ilúvatar" and the Void are two seperate places. The final phrase of that quote really drives home my point as well. The Void cannot be void if there's something there - so if the Halls of Ilúvatar are located in an area of the Void, then they cannot be the Void as well since they are not void. If that makes any sense at all.


But we digress. This isn't the point. The point is that Ungoliant came from "the Outer Darkness...that lies in Eä beyond the Walls of the World." The fact that she came from within Eä already and this means that she cannot, therefore, be one of the Ainur for a number of reasons:



1) The Ainur originated OUTSIDE of Eä.
2) The Ainur were created before Eä.



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Elendil the Tall
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To further emphasize the seperation between the Halls of Iluvatar, one just has to read a bit further than Narg's quote:


"To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he has a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness." (The Silmarillion, Ainulindale)


So once again, we see that Melkor must leave the Halls of Iluvatar in order to search the Void, so they are distinctly seperate places.



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Narguzir
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Thanks for those quotes, Elendil.


So does no one else have anything to say on the matter then?



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mouth of sauron
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Why could the Ainur not live in the outer darkness? Although Ea did not exist at this time it could be quite possible that the outer darkness did, an anomely within the Void. I do not think that the Halls of Iluvatar were seperate from the outer darkness, the void and the world itself.

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Narguzir
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The Outer Darkness is inside Eä - a part of it - and so it cannot have existed before the creation of Eä.

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The Might
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now I don't mean to sound anoying, but the theme was Ungoliant, so here goes:
"The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it."
Well, the fact that Ungoliant came from outside Arda is a very strong argument for the idea that she was in fact a Maia, or a spirit similar to them."The time of Ungoliante's coming to Arda is placed (as a surmise) with the entry of Melkor and his host before the overthrow of the Lamps (see p. 53, $19). With 'maybe she came to the South out of the darkness of Ea' cf. QS $55: 'from the Outer Darkness, maybe, that lies beyond the Walls of the World'. Though again put as a surmise, Ungoliante's origin is now found in her ancient corruption by Melkor, and it is suggested that he went to Arvalin of set purpose to find her."
"The sentence in $60 'a thing before unseen that in the gathering night had seemed to be a spider of monstrous form' was changed to 'a thing before unseen for which no word was known, a vast shape of darkness black in the gathering night'; cf. AAm $122. The Valar are to be wholly ignorant of the nature of the aid that Melkor had summoned (cf. AAm $124), and the Darkness (or 'Unlight') of Ungoliante becomes a central idea of the legend. "
(HOME; Morgoth's Ring)
All quotes seem to poin out to only one thing-that Ungoliant had not been created by the theme of Illuvatar, together with the things on Arda, but that she had come from outside the world, which would of course make her a Maia. (to avoid confsion I reffer to the theme with which Arda was created)
"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. "
( The Silmarillion, VALAQUENTA)
This quote seems to very well fit the story of Morgoth and Ungoliant:
"It may well be that Melkor, if none other, knew of her, being and her abode, and that she was in the beginning one of those that he had corrupted to his service. And coming at length to Arvalin, he sought her out, and demanded her aid in his revenge."
(HOME, Morgoth's Ring)
That is why I would personally incline to saying that Ungoliant was indeed a Maia.

-- Edited by The Might at 13:14, 2006-04-14

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Glorfindel
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Glad you agree The Might!

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The Might
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huh? agree with who?

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Glorfindel
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Have a look at the Beorn? thread in 'Other Tolkien books forum' You will see some of use suggested that there before Narguzir created this thread.

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The Might
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ah yes, true...well, I thought some more quotes are good

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Narguzir
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My appologies for not seeing this and responding sooner. Other matters have kept me busy, I must admit. Anyways, in response to The Might's post...


First off, you quote this:


"she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda"


Um, how does that help your case? As Glorfindel says, this has already been brought up. I've shown before that the Outter Darkness is a part of Eä, and so if she came from within Eä already then she could not have existed outside of it, ie: where the Ainur live.


"in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service"


Melkor corrupted many things: beasts, plants, Maiar, spirits, etc. This does not prove that Ungoliant is one of the Ainur.


All you have to support the "Ungoliant is an Ainur" theory is speculation. There are very few quotes that can be used to support your ideas, and most of them can be rebutted. You are using your own interpretation of the quotes, not Tolkien's, so that they appear to aid your cause. If you find a quote that says either a) Ungoliant is specifically an Ainur, b) that she came from outside of Eä (not Arda), or c) something else that expressly shows that she is an Ainur without the need for interpretation/speculation/etc, then I will be forced to look at the situation differently. Until then though, I will adamantly rebut as many of your points as I can.



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The Might
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yes, very true
I usually don't like to speculate at all in lore forums, but I must admit I did this for the reason I can't really find a better explanation.
I mean I don't think she could have physically existed in the void if she had not been an Ainu or as I think more probably a Maia.
Actually sorry if I said I think she is an Ainu, I'd rather consider Ungoliant a maia with the form of a giant spider.
We know that many many Maias were corrupted by Melkor in the beginning and joined him, and from the quote "in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service."
also, Narguzir, when I see the term in the beginning I think of the very beginning of Ea, when, only Maia and Ainu existed.

And frankly I doubt that the quote you give is really that good. Please note the context it is given in... the idea is she came to Arda "from the Outer Darkness..."
not that she had been somehow created there. The problem is you can't really prove that she was created there.

Of course I am speculating, and I must accept there is less specualtion in the idea she was not an Ainu, but I can't think she was simply maybe some disturbance in the original theme and she was somehow created together with Ea.

Anyway, good thread.

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Narguzir
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She did not exist in the Void though. She existed in the Outer Darkness, which is something wholly different than the Void. Eä in its entirety is located within the Void ("globed amidst the Void"), and the Outter Darkness is a part of Eä, so they are two different things.


As for being corrupted "in the beginning", this can be attributed to her being what Tolkien calls a "spirit". Just like the Eagles of Manwë were spirits in his service, Ungoliant could have been a spirit that Melkor corrupted into his service. This is, personally, what I believe to be the answer, but I won't delve into that.


Which quote are you talking about, by the way, that I gave and isn't very good? Just wondering.



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The Might
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yes, a spirit is in my opinion the best idea....not necessarily an Ainu
No I meant the quote about Ungoliant coming from the Outer Darkness. It never clearly says she was born or created there...we are suggest told she came from there. So she could, theoretically to come from the Void, then go to the Outer darkness, and then come to Arda, and the quote would still make sense. We don't know where she had been before.

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Gothmog
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Most of this is specuation. Although, I do agree that she was a spirit but not necessarily an Ainu.

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The Might
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I believe everyone in this forum is well aware that a large majority of topics is speculation.
But that does not stop us from trying to find the answers.
And if she was not an Ainu what do you say she was ?
A Maia? Or maybe something else?

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Gothmog
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From what I've read here, the simarillion, and other sorces; I would have to say that she was either an Ainu or a Maia. But its still speculation.

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The Might
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I don't want to offend you in any way, but when discussing in a tolkien lore forum you should explain your choices a little more
why was she an Ainu?
or why was she a Maia?
simply giving the answer and not bringing any information to back your choice up is not so good.

I personally say she is a Maia, and not an Ainu.
I believe that the Valar and Melkor are said to be the only Ainur to have entered Arda, and so Ungoliant couldn't have been one of them.
But considering that coming from Ea she could have only been another spirit, she was in my opinion a Maia.

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mouth of sauron
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Lets get your Ainur and Maiar soughted out TM and Gil Galad.


What you mean is Valar and Maiar. The Ainur is the order in which they are BOTH included.



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Gothmog
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Sorry, I think she was a maia more than I think she was an ainu for the same reasons you mentioned. I think she was as powerful as a maia because of the power she had to of had to suck dry the two trees, and attack Melkor. She would need an emense amount of power to think she was powerful enough to take on Melkor. I'm not saying she would have killed him if the balrogs had come, I'm just saying that inless she was an idiot she would not have tried if she didn't think she could.


PS, TM I'm not offended at all. I thank you for bringing it up. I'll try to explain my resons better.



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mouth of sauron
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 (pity you were writing the post when I explained about the Maiar and Valar part)

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Gothmog
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LOL, that is a pity.


PS, I was confused about that. I got cought up and forgot which was which.



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The Might
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that is not correct mos
Valar = Ainur that came to ME
Maiar = Spirits weaker in power then the Ainur
look in the Sil again if you don't believe me

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mouth of sauron
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No that is not correct TM.


Look in the Ainulindale where Eru speaks to his Ainur. At the time before Ea the Ainur were not put into seperate classes. Indeed some were stronger than others but there was no sub-order of them. And Eru calls them all Ainur when he speaks to them. And Tolkien himself calls them Ainur;


"and the Ainur were with him before aught else was made"


No one will back you on this TM.



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The Might
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and to Gil Galad.
forget the other post, you were correct in your post and I also agree with your argument about Ungoliant and the Trees.
and in the future don't agree with others unless they have good proof for you.
otherwise you might up thinking that Maiar are also Ainur.

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mouth of sauron
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I will ask Lord Lorien to clear this one up.

-- Edited by mouth of sauron at 23:23, 2006-10-09

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The Might
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no need for suh words.
I just forgot about that.
you are indeed correct, Maiar are lesser Ainur.

-- Edited by Lord Lórien at 16:21, 2006-10-10

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mouth of sauron
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Ahh right so now you agree?

-- Edited by mouth of sauron at 23:30, 2006-10-09

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Gothmog
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Wow. Harsh words. I have to say I did forget about it but Mouth of Sauron is correct. And, as he said, Maiar are simply lesser Valar. Both are Aunir.


However, their really isn't a need of harsh words!



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Lord Lórien
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Sorry for being late, I haven't had a lot of time to be on recently.  Everything does seem to be cleared up now though...indeed Maiar and Valar are both Ainur, or 'the holy ones,' that were created by Eru. 



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Celethil
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I'm not willing to accept the fact that she did not descend from the Halls of Iluvatar as a valid argument against her being one of the Ainur.

The fact that Melkor corrupted her to his service as he did with Sauron and many fire spirits (also Ainur) fits with his pattern. The earlier quote also mentions her disowning her master, which I suppose is one of the Valar or another Maia. I am sure that those opposing the Ainur hypothesis will vehemently rebut that, but what alternative is there that makes sense.
There is also the fact that Ungoliant was able to choose her shape in the material world just as the rest of the Ainur.

I get the impression that the 'outer darkness' is what we now refer to as outer space.

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Finrod Felagund
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I would tend to not categorize her as one of the Ainur; but more specifically one of the Maiar. As far as we're concerned, only 9 Valar (including Melkor) descended into Arda. Therefore, since I take this quote, "... she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda ... and that in the beginning she was one of those that he (Melkor) corrupted to his service.", I believe, she was one of the Maiar.

"the beginning", without any doubt, refers to the first entrance of the Ainur into Arda and so we can conclude that the corruption has taken place BEFORE Arda was inhabited and so, this goes back to the fact that at that time, only the Ainur would have been present (apart from Eru).

Thanks.

-- Edited by Finrod Felagund at 18:31, 2006-12-31

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Glorfindel
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Finrod Felagund wrote:

1. - I would tend to not categorize her as one of the Ainur; but more specifically one of the Maiar.
2. - As far as we're concerned, only 9 Valar (including Melkor) descended into Arda. 



Well The Ainur consists of both the Valar and the lessar order, the Maiar. There was no offcial catagorisation between the two before Ea was made. They were all Ainur but diverted into the two orders after they decended to signify the difference in power between them.


I am a little confused by what you mean by 9 Valar including Melkor descending into Arda. With melkor there was 15. Without him there was 14, 7 Lords, 7 queens. Unless you mean that only 9 were of significance in the myth?



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Finrod Felagund
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Well The Ainur consists of both the Valar and the lessar order, the Maiar. There was no offcial catagorisation between the two before Ea was made. They were all Ainur but diverted into the two orders after they decended to signify the difference in power between them.


Yes of course. I used the word "categorize", since everyone was using Ainur, I thought it would have been better to focus on Maiar, because if we talk about the Ainur, we may be referring to the Valar aswell (which Ungoliant was definately not one of them).


I am a little confused by what you mean by 9 Valar including Melkor descending into Arda. With melkor there was 15. Without him there was 14, 7 Lords, 7 queens. Unless you mean that only 9 were of significance in the myth?

Thank you very much Glorfindel1235 for pointing this out. Yes I forgot to mention that the 9 I quoted, referred to those who were the 'main' characters in 'The Silmarillion'. Sorry for the mistake! Thanks once again :)

Thanks.




-- Edited by Finrod Felagund at 08:34, 2007-01-02

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Finrod Felagund
The Might
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There is another theory that Ungoliant is an incarnated form of darkness, just as Bombadil might be for nature.

If she came from the Void, it would firstly mean that she was not an Ainu, but something else, in which case it makes sense that she would be Darkness in a spider form, especially due to the way she fed herself, by eating light

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