Tolkien Top 100 Middle Earth's Top 100
Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 

Topic: The Dark Fire!

Post Info
Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
Status: Offline
Posts: 129
Date: Aug 9, 2009
RE: The Dark Fire!

Is this my question, or what?

I named myself The Secret Fire because I found the concept very intriguing when referenced both in LOTR and The Silmarillion. As Olorin had stated, the Secret Fire appears to be another name for the Flame Imperishable that lies with Iluvatar/Ea and is the force that allows him and only him to create other beings. Even when the Dwarves were created by Aule, it was Iluvatar that granted them life.

When Gandalf gives his speech (one of my favorites in the book, by the way), it seems that he is telling the Balrog, a servant of Morgoth, that he serves the Secret Fire of Iluvatar, he wields the power of the Valar as represented by Anor (Elvish name for the Sun), and that the dark powers of Morgoth will not avail the Balrog against the powers of the West and the power of Iluvatar. It is hard to say for certain what Gandalf means by "wielder of the flame of Anor", but that's my best guess.

At any rate, Gandalf's statement shows that he knows that he is dealing with a Balrog of Morgoth and wants to make it aware that he's not simply a human man. Whether the statement is necessary is debatable - I tend to think that the Balrog would be aware of Gandalf's divine nature without being told.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Date: Jul 12, 2011
He does practise with fire magic but the overall magic he uses is Light magic, fire magic would come under this.

__________________

 

runescape gold
rs gold
runescape money
Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 764
Date: Nov 15, 2011
Maybe Gandalf's power with fire was enhanced by Narya but I also believe that the ring was the reason why Gandalf was not consumed by the Balrog's flame as they fell from the Bridge of Khazad Dum. And if he didn't have the ring in the first place could he have turned the Balrog's first strike with it's fiery sword?

This gets into a very wide area of expertise. Many artifacts in D&D (D&D which I feel Tolkien was mainly responsible for) have such virtues. Swords that have magical affect. Armor that grants certain immunities to elements and rings with special wards against certain dangers. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assume Narya, one of the three rings of Celebrimbor, untouched by Sauron's malice, could provide such protections....what say you?

__________________
Slaves of udun
Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date: Sep 15, 2013

This is conjecture regarding "the flame of Anor" from a diction/linguistic point of view.

I consulted a 1965 edition of the Fellowship and one published early 21st century (just for precaution) and in both editions the phrase in question is written as such: "...wielder of the flame of Anor."

Notice the word "flame" is not capitalized. If it were written "Flame of Anor", that would imply that the text (or Gandalf) is referring to a signal object/entity. But with "flame" not capitalized, the word "of" may be seen synonymous with "from", making the phrase "...wielder of the flame FROM Anor", meaning the fire is from a place, namely Aman/Valinor.

Then, on a (opinionated) logical note, Gandalf - who is not even the head of the Istari and merely (relatively speaking) a Maia - wielding the Secret Fire, a power hidden by Iluvatar from the Ainur, something even Melkor couldn't find, seems a little unrealistic.  I would guess "the flame of Anor" is a power from Aman of a sort, not the Secret Fire. Again, in my opinion.

Hopefully this is not too hard to follow. Food for thought.

P.S. Forgive all the edits; a few were fixing typos and the last an afterthought.



-- Edited by Teralectus on Sunday 15th of September 2013 05:17:19 PM



-- Edited by Teralectus on Sunday 15th of September 2013 08:05:29 PM



-- Edited by Teralectus on Sunday 15th of September 2013 08:56:07 PM

__________________

"And Morgoth came."

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 764
Date: Feb 7, 2021
Check this out. I think that the secret fire is the power of creation. Which is not Illuvatar's to wield but the right of Illuvatar to use, at his/her whim. Melkor might have challenged this notion. The secret fire is with Illuvatar. I don't think even Illuvatar covets it. It is a thing that he is unwilling to teach..because he does not completely understand it...but can harness it...each time realizing he is the steward of such a power...the only one who can control it...though it is estranged from him/her.

And stewardship is an uber-noble theme...

Speak to me

__________________
 
«First  <  1 2 | Page of 2  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Chatbox

Please log in to join the chat!

Previous poll results (What is the 'Mightiest' weapon in Tolkiens myth?): Gurthang, blade of Turin - 28%, Narsil, sword of Elendil - 12%, Anduril, Sword of King Ellesar Aragorn - 23%, The Mace of the Witch King - 5%, Grond the dread hammer/hammer of the underworld -19%, Black axe of Gothmog - 4, Glamdring of Gandalf - 7%, Orcrist of Thorin - 1% A NEW POLL HAS BEEN ADDED TO TOLKIEN FORUMS Tolkien Forums - The Mythical world of J.R.R Tolkien