In the Two Towers Gandalf tells of the journey he suffered with the Balrog of Morgoth. He says that he fell into the abyss, to the foundations of stone beyond any dwelling of surface life. He says that the Tunnels which his enemy knew so well were gnawed by creatures oso old and secretive that even sauron knew them not:
"Far below the deepest dwelling of Dwarves, the World is ganwed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now i have walked there but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."
Does anyone have any guess to what these entities might be?
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Not a clue possibly similar to the watcher or some secret creatures created when Arda was by Melkors 'singing out of tune'. It intrigues me though as to why Gandalf (me,lol) would describe them as 'older' than Sauron, since Sauron is a maia and therefore as old as Arda or infact time.
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
As you know although the Ainur were with Eru before all else there were creatures in Arda before the Ainur themselves such as Tom Bombadil. Therefore Gandalf is saying that they are ranked alongside Tom bombadil who we know to be in Arda before any Ainur.
-- Edited by The One at 17:19, 2006-04-05
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Well, some time ago I thought that the Watcher in the Water might have something to do with those creatures but I gave that idea up...lol Anyway, those creatures are probably spirits that simply inhabit the deep regions of ME, and also that they gnawed dark tunnels far beneath the earth, through which Gandalf escaped from the depths of the chasm beneath Khazad-dûm. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. And it clearly seems they are Maiar, but any other theories about them would be simply speculations.
It seems logical to me that extra creatures may have been brought into arda by the discord of Melkor, they were not meant to be there had eru's theme progressed as it should have.
Enigmas like Beorn and Bombadil for instance were 'good' beings brought from the rebellion of Melkors music whilst beings such as The watcher in The water and perhaps Ungoliant were brought from the rebelion itself.
I'd tend to agree with that...It could just be that they are creatures so old that their names are far forgotten. Or perhaps they were never given a name to begin with and they disappeared deep into the earth as time progressed and didn't have the chance to aquire one later. Who knows...
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The more I consumath the more I hunger for, render me the Silmarils!
Could you give some examples of them being old and forgotten in name, quotations for example. Illuvatar will have named everything and he see's all and knows all,
"Eru hath spoken, saying "Do then any of the Valar suppose than I have not heard all of the Song, even the least sound of the least voice.""
He knows all, to him they are not nameless and therefore to the Valar they are not nameless, which in turn would mean (if one had the will to ask) to the Maiar and so Gandalf they are not nameless. If you can back up you're agreement Atanvarne with a quote I would be most impressed.
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
The Might, I don't think your thinking that the "critters" of Moria being possibly more "watchers in the water" is too far off.
First, we don't know if there exactly is one "Watcher" we are left open the possibility that there could be several seperate creatures, with tentacles, that are all guided towards Frodo:
"I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water," said Frodo. "What was the thing, or were there many of them?" "I do not know," answered Gandalf, "but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world."~Journey in the Dark
Also, notice that Gandalf makes the connection between the Watcher and the "dark waters under the mountains." So, it's very likely that some of the "critters" Gandalf found in Moria could have been other Watchers in the Water. I think there are several more different types of "critters," but I certainly think that other "watchers" are the "nameless things" Gandalf encounters.
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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
well, as I said I used to believe that, but of course there is no clear proof, and they could very well be separate races..and we know there was water in the depths of Moria, but there is one main problem. Gandalf says that these creatures created tunnels in the depths of MOria....and frankly, I doubt that creatures living in water would need tunnels underground... unless, of course the watcher in the water could also walk on dry ground, which I doubt... so I think that fact makes it quite unlikely...and there could be more then just one race of strange, dark creatures in the depths of MOria.
I agree, I mean I don't think that ALL the "creatures" Gandalf talked about would be other watchers. There is definitely good reason to assume that there are several different "critters" that shall always remain an enigma. But, I think there's good reason to believe that atleast some of the critters were other watchers in the water type. But, there is evidence to suggest that there were "watchers" in the deepest parts of Moria where Gandalf had been.
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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
TM is right. Their is no proof of this being true or not. It is all speculation. Really the only thing you can do is argue over which story sounds better.
which story sounds better? that sounds rather childish to me perhaps there are precedents to these creatures in earlier works of Tolkien, maybe someone knows something about that?
Went to see "The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies" today. Jackson used this one small sentence to create the "Earth Eater" worms that were in the movie. Award for the biggest reach goes to ......
