Tolkien Forums

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 

Topic: Saruman or Gandalf?

Post Info
Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 824
Date: May 21, 2015
Saruman or Gandalf?

In the scene where an old man approached Gimli, Legolas, and Aragon, was it Saruman? If so, why didn't he bump them off or something?

__________________
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 23, 2015
As far as I know that is left open. Maybe it was Saruman spying. However, from what I remember it seems to indicate that it could be more mysterious than that. The fact the old man had a hat and was not hooded, as Eomer said, suggests something more mysterious than Saruman.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 824
Date: May 27, 2015
I had the same thought but wasn't sure if it was too conspiracy theory-ish. So, what or who could it have been?

__________________
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: May 31, 2015
I guess it could have been some kind of premonition, or something related to 'fate' in some way, Iluvatar pulling the strings like he did with Gollum in Mt Doom. Not really sure. Obviously Tolkien had something in mind but he does seem to like to introduce the occasional enigma for us to ponder over.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Date: Jun 12, 2015
Perhaps you don't bump off every old man with a hat that you see?


__________________
Love Light and Peace
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2960
Date: Jun 15, 2015

Filli,
Hmmm ... Not bumping off every old man with hat ... it cramps my style ... but your right ... us folks on "The Tolkien Forums" should play  nice ...wink



__________________

Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 824
Date: Jun 18, 2015
I meant why didn't Saruman bump off our heroes.

__________________
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Jun 22, 2015
Another thing to bear in mind is the subtle nature of magic in Middle-earth. I wonder, if it was Saruman, what he could have done to dispatch Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli quickly if he did want to kill them? There are, from memory, precious few instances where Gandalf wields magic in fighting situation in LotR and I don't recall any of them which would enable a Wizard to kill three warriors quickly. Though I'm a bit rusty - are there any instances in the books of this?

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date: May 28, 2017
Honestly I just assumed it was Gandalf having a bit of fun.

__________________

All that is gold does not glitter,

Not all those who wander are lost

The old that is strong does not wither

Deep roots are not touched by the frost.

 

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring:

Renewed shall be blade that was broken

The crownless again shall be king.

Soldier of Beleriand - Rank 3
Status: Offline
Posts: 121
Date: May 30, 2017

I don't remember what I personally thought when I first read the passage (the ending of chapter II of Book III, 'The Riders of Rohan', for easier reference), but I daresay I believed the old man to be Gandalf due to Aragorn's words to Legolas, noting that the man had a hat and not a hood. Since Eomer had said that Saruman walked hooded, Aragorn's observation pointed in the direction of Gandalf.

But actually the old man IS Saruman, as confirmed by Christopher Tolkien in HoMe VII: The Treason of Isengard and by Hammond&Scull in their LotR: A Reader's Companion, which I will cite in full:

"Scheme [a manuscript time-scheme of the events in LotR made by Tolkien] confirms Gimli's suspicion: 'February 30: Saruman appears on battlefield and is seen by Aragorn and companions at night.' An earlier time-scheme, written while Tolkien was working on Chapters 7 and 8 of Book III, includes the entry: 'Aragorn and his companions spend night on the battle-field, and see "old man" (Saruman)' (The Treason of Isengard, p. 428). They are a considerable way from Orthanc and the reader might wonder with Gimli in Book III, Chapter 5 whether it was really Saruman or only 'an evil phantom' of him, especially as he leaves no traces. But Gandalf later explains that it was Saruman: 'He was so eager to lay his hands on his prey [the hobbits and possibly the Ring] that he could not wait at home, and he came forth to meet and to spy on his messengers. But he came too late for once, and the battle was over and beyond his help before he reached these parts. He did not remain here long' (Book III, Chapter 5)."

In HoMe VII Christopher Tolkien notes that in the earliest version of the text his father might have thought the old man to be Gandalf, because (among other reasons) in that version the horses were not lost and neither did they seem afraid.



-- Edited by John Wain on Tuesday 30th of May 2017 08:52:58 AM

__________________
 
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.



Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard