I've always wondered what was the more impressive feat of these. I tend to lean towards Sam defeating Shelob, but there were many more spiders in Bilbo's case.
-- Edited by Headingsouth on Friday 10th of January 2014 10:57:25 PM
__________________
"You say that you are afraid. If it is so, the boldest should pardon you. But is it not really your good sense that revolts?"
- Boromir to Frodo
I would agree with you that Sam and Shelob seems a more impressive feat. I think Shelob was way more powerful than the puny spiders of Mirkwoood. Yes, there were more spiders in Mirkwood, but Bilbo had the Ring. If he hadn't had it and had been forced to fight them visisble, I wonder how he would have done?
But keep in mind, Sam - at this point - had experience fighting with a sword (ie. Balin's Tomb) and he also had the Light of Earendil, which was a pretty powerful shield. Bilbo really wasn't experienced with a sword, so I'd say Bilbo's feat was greater, even though he did have the ring.
I agree with Teralectus, Bilbo had absolutely no training in fighting, and yes, he had the ring, but he egged those spiders on. They went into a frenzy. I would like to see Samwise do that. Bilbo had to become visible at times and also to cut all the dwarves lose from the trees was no small feat.
__________________
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
This is a toss up. Shelob was a descendent of Ungoliant, while the spiders of Mirkwood were descendents of Shelob. Shelob was fierce and deadly by herself, while Mirkwood Spiders were fierce in numbers. Both Sam and Bilbo were timid Hobbits. Bilbo had the advantage and extra bravado of the Ring, while Sam had the ferocity of love for his Master Frodo 'got bit by a spider' Baggins.
I say that Bilbo would not have fared as well without the Ring. Sure he would have killed a spider or two before he was swarmed, but not before displaying great courage.
Sam was just on fire and stabby. Stubby and stabby therefore Studly. I vote for Sam on this one....
-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Wednesday 15th of January 2014 10:10:07 PM
I am not sure Sam's experiences fighting helped him defeat Shelob. It seems that fighting a giant spider would require a different skill set than fighting off an orc. Having never done either, I can't say for sure.
Jaido, I question your logic here, "Stubby and stabby therefore Studly."
I would look into the motivation. Sam, to fight with Shelob, is motivated by his love and devotion to Frodo. And Bilbo's motivation is quite different - a sense of duty. Somehow I am more impressed by Bilbo.
And as a side note, poor Ungoliant, had she not been killed by Earendil long ago, would have died of shame for her descendants. A whole Vala Morgoth once could not overcome her, yet those sorry creatures, Shelob and the Mirkwood spiders, are defeated by whom? Hobbits... Pathetic.
Lorelline, I can see what you are saying about motivations. But, I would have thought that because of Sam's love for Frodo, he would have felt the same duty, or perhaps a stronger duty, to fight Shelob. It's a good question. I have to think more about it.
And you are right, Ungoliant probably was rolling in her grave wondering why she bothered having children at all.
What I meant is that Sam's motivation looks much stronger to me than Bilbo's. Heroic deeds are easier to do with stronger motivations, that's why Sam's victory surprises (and also impresses) me less than the fact that Bilbo took the Mirkwood spiders upon himself.
Whether either Sam or Bilbo had any choice is another question.
Both Sam and Bilbo had the chance to leave the respective victim(s) and run away, but they both confronted the spider(s). Sam did for his love of Frodo, which is noble. But almost anybody would fight to defend the life of someone whom they loved. Bilbo stayed to help dwarves who were still not much more than strangers not because he loved them but because he made a promise to help them. In Sam's case, the choice to stay is almost a given for anybody, but to risk your life to save some dwarves whose ultimate goal is not saving the world (like Frodo's) but regaining treasure, I believe, is more honorable. I don't know about heroic - I don't know what our definition of heroic is -, but I think Bilbo saving the Dwarves was more honorable.
-- Edited by Teralectus on Thursday 23rd of January 2014 08:49:04 PM
-- Edited by Teralectus on Thursday 23rd of January 2014 08:54:45 PM
