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Topic: A Guided Tour of Middle-earth

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James the Just
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Date: Oct 31, 2013
A Guided Tour of Middle-earth
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Can you tell me or provide a link to which map you're using. I could figure out an easy way to convert it, maybe.

Well, I pulled another late-nighter. The position of the islands of Himling and Tol Morwen just didn't seem right using the formula I came up with. I eventually realized that I had been using the wrong mountain on the main map for Mount Rerir. So the computer programs above need a little bit of editing. I'm replacing the 19 in the formula with 21 and the 150 with 148. It's only a 2 mm change in both directions in the main map, but accuracy is important. The result is that everything on the Beleriand map moves about a quarter of a degree to the south and east. This is good for several reasons. The summit of Porcupine Bank, at about 53* 15' N and 14* 20' W, can now be where Amon Rudh is. If Tol Morwen is near the junction of the Rivers Teiglin and Sirion*, instead of the crossing of the former, it would still be less than 200 meters from the surface. Himring is now much closer to the position that Tolkien put on one of his earlier maps. And Rockall is now even closer to where Angband was to be.

* Is that possible?

Himring as Slieve League?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slieve_League-cliffs-2.jpg



-- Edited by James the Just on Thursday 31st of October 2013 06:00:44 PM

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Lorelline
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The site thainsbook.net/rivers.html is where I found Celebros shown on the map. The stone of the Hapless is near the inflow of Celebros into Teiglin. Celebros does not appear on the Silmarillion map, so I may be way off, trying to place it there visually.
Using the reportedly wrong version as it turns out, I got Gondolin and Nargothrond sort of close to each other, or so it seems from the coordinates, and I did not convert that to distances - did you check if the distances are converted correctly (they should stay the same I believe)?


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Lórellinë
James the Just
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What map are you using? I can't understand how you could get Gondolin and Nargothrond close to one another.

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Lorelline
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I was using the map of Beleriand in the map section on this site. I even resized it once to see the stability of the performance. I got virtually the same coordinates for Nargothrond both times, as it should be, regardless of the map of Beleriand size. Used the computer screen and a ruler for measurements.
50o 28' N
15o 36' W for Nargothrond

53o 1' N
13o 53' W for Gondolin.

I am not saying they are very close. Maybe far enough. I didn't check, just got the feeling that they might be close.

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Lórellinë
Lorelline
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No, the black and white one. Nargothrond and Gondolin are better visible there. The width frame-to-frame is 196 mm (the way I resized it. Can be anything naturally).



-- Edited by Lorelline on Monday 4th of November 2013 11:01:58 PM

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Are you using the one of color under "First Age Beleriand"? What is the width of the map by your ruler?

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Lorelline
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And just a question - how does the position of Mt. Rerir matter? Did you use it for the Beleriand map, tying it to some landmark (if yes, to which one), as you did for the Hobbiton/Oxford?

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Date: Nov 5, 2013
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I did tie Mount Rerir to Slemish and Lake Helevorn to Lough Neagh but that doesn't work out to be a perfect fit like I had hoped. I'll still say that's what they are but the positioning is a bit approximate.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Slemish_%286%29_-_geograph.org.uk_-_624718.jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lough_Neagh_-_geograph.org.uk_-_126920.jpg

Using the map in The Silmarillion (which is like the one above the one you're using) I got these coordinates for Nargothrond: 77 up and 66 across. This puts it at 52* 37' North and 15* 58' West. Gondolin is 115 up and 89 across, giving 54* 52' North and 14* 26' West.

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Lorelline
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I just found the measurements from when the same map was resized at 131 mm horizontally. I had Nargothrond at 46 mm right, 25 mm up; and Gondolin at 64 mm right, 55 mm up. Makes no sense at all compared to your measurements. Is 'across' the same as 'to the right'? Anyway my measurements resulted in the coordinates as I posted previously.
I also used the previous version of your program. I just realized that you probably were implying that I should update it as you described. I never did, but I guess I can when I get to it (only have installed the DOSbox at work). But I think that's not the reason for the discrepancy, the measurements are. I definitely haven't learned how to use the ruler. Are you measuring from the frame that you called a black line once?

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Date: Nov 11, 2013
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Happy Durin's Day!



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Lorelline
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How did you decide it is today and not more than a month ago? The moon is far from new at the moment (well it is snowing anyways). (I know it was a prank)

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Date: Nov 11, 2013
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In my opinion Durin's Day falls on the first day of the week after the last new moon of Autumn. Autumn ends at Samhain, which is around November 7th, and the first day of the week is, of course, Sunday.

 
Your measurements make perfect sense. They're almost exactly proportional to mine if adjusted correctly. Although I can't see your map it is simple to calculate. The difference in scales on the maps can be determined by comparing the distances between Nargothrond and Gondolin. There is a vertical difference between these two points of 38 mm in the Silmarillion map and 30 mm in the one you're using. This gives a ratio of 30/38, or about 0.79. So the width of your map, if it covered the same amount of area, would actually be 190*30/38, or 150 mm. This is what you should input into "WIDTH OF MAP."

Additionally, to account for the different borders, add 36 to your total for "UP" and 6 for "ACROSS." For example, to Nargothrond's 25 'up' add 36 to get 61. Input this. Add 6 to its 46 'right' to get 52. This will make the resulting latitudes and longitudes be almost exactly the same, despite our using different maps. I did the calculations using the modified program and got this:

UP IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE BOTTOM
ACROSS IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE LEFT

TYPE OF MAP
SILMARILLION=0, HOBBIT=1, FELLOWSHIP=2, GENERAL=3, RETURN=4:

WIDTH OF MAP: 150

TO END INPUT 999

UP: 61
ACROSS: 52

LAT: 52 38 N
LON: 16 0 W

UP: 91
ACROSS: 70

LAT: 54 52 N
LON: 14 28 W

The calculations based on the Silmarillion map for Nargothrond, given above, were 52* 37' N, a one minute of arc difference, and 15* 58' W, a two minute difference. For Gondolin I had gotten 54* 52' N, which is exactly the same, and 14* 26' W, which is only a two minute difference.

So your use of straightedges and knowing where things are on the map is just fine.



-- Edited by James the Just on Monday 11th of November 2013 06:05:59 PM

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Lorelline
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"In my opinion Durin's Day falls on the first day of the week after the last new moon of Autumn. Autumn ends at Samhain, which is around November 7th, and the first day of the week is, of course, Sunday."

Ok, why not have multiple Durin's days? Maybe the chances for finding a treasure could be improved that way? I would only suggest to start the week on Monday. Sundays can be spent nicely doing all sorts of nothing, while on a Monday, looking for a secret door and even facing a dragon might be a great alternative to going to work. Not that The Hobbit mentions any particular day of the week.

"So the width of your map, if it covered the same amount of area, would actually be 190*30/38, or 150 mm. This is what you should input into "WIDTH OF MAP." "

I recall I was repeatedly bringing up this issue exactly. The frame could be anywhere around the map, so to make all maps comparable and scalable, the counting/measurement should start from the same landmark place on the map - not from the frame necessarily. My map is not 150 but 131 mm wide and 80 not 124 mm (as it would be) high. Now that I looked at these two maps together they are just way different. Yours covers a lot more to the bottom, somewhat more at the top and left and quite a bit more on the right. So that's how you got the shift parameters (I got the same; 77*0.789=60.75; 60.75-25=~36 and so on).

My point has ever been that measuring from any kind of frame is not the best. Something that is present on every map could serve as a starting point for measurements, although it is much less convenient -but not impossible - to measure from a point than from a line.

But it is your call! You probably have had enough of this.



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Lórellinë
James the Just
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"Ok, why not have multiple Durin's days?"

Actually, I think Gary Howell may be right in that Durin's Day isn't exactly the same thing as the Dwarven New Year. It just may fall on it occasionally.

"My point has ever been that measuring from any kind of frame is not the best."

Well, it's a lot easier and accurate than anything else if you have the right map. But you're right. What if we might not have that available or may want to try it on different sorts?

"Something that is present on every map could serve as a starting point for measurements, although it is much less convenient -but not impossible - to measure from a point than from a line."

You've convinced me. It never really occurred to me what advantages there could be had by doing that. Although the program was only designed for the maps in the books, there could be an option that allows the use of landmarks to set it. I'll begin working on that as soon as I get done calculating and celebrating Durin's Day. The two are often mutually exclusive, though.

What would you use as the most precise and convenient landmarks? It would have to be something anyone could find and pinpoint and there would have to be two of them, separated by a good distance in both latitude and longitude. Even so, if they were too close to the edges of the map then some kinds of maps may not even have them within its borders.



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Lorelline
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"Actually, I think Gary Howell may be right in that Durin's Day isn't exactly the same thing as the Dwarven New Year. It just may fall on it occasionally. "

I think it doesn't happen every year. The right first moon may rise after the sunset and then no Durin's day - correct? Not sure if there was one this year, which of course does not mean that you cannot celebrate it for as long as humanly - or Gnomishly - possible. The appropriate way of celebration would be by calculating the parameters for the update, but some get weird ideas as to how to celebrate. The "mutually exclusive" thing is indicative of that.

"What would you use as the most precise and convenient landmarks?"

How about Eglarest and the junction of Little Gelion with Greater Gelion?

Maybe the map from The War of the Jewels has to be posted too, after all. The main problem is scanning it from the book - laying it flat...

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Date: Nov 14, 2013
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"I think it doesn't happen every year. The right first moon may rise after the sunset and then no Durin's day - correct?"

The moon goes in the same direction as the sun so if the sun is setting then so is the moon. I think Tolkien had made the same mistake somewhere, but I can't remember where.

It might be that the first day of the new year is when the new moon is first seen, but Durin's Day is the following first day of the week; sort of like Easter. Sometimes these coincide. This could explain a lot of things in the text. It could also provide a reason why Tolkien never got around to providing a more exact description of the Dwarvish calendar. If you've ever tried to work out the labrynith of calculating Easter you would know what I mean. Trying to reconcile having the year start with a day of the week, moon phase, and seasonal point could lead to some complications, especially if you're trying for a system that could predict these dates well into the future.

Although the first day of the week is Sunday, I imagine the Dwarves would have their day begin at sunset of the previous day. So a proper Durin's Day celebration should begin on a Saturday evening. Why kind of celebrating is appropriate for that time?

By the way, if anyone should check out my dating for the events in The Hobbit with a perpetual calendar they will find that the moon of Durin's Day was seen on a Saturday evening.

But this is off topic.

"How about Eglarest and the junction of Little Gelion with Greater Gelion?"

Sounds good.


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Lorelline
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"The moon goes in the same direction as the sun so if the sun is setting then so is the moon. I think Tolkien had made the same mistake somewhere, but I can't remember where."

Did I say that the sun and the moon go in different directions? I didn't say the moon was rising in the west (Tolkien did - is that the mistake you mention?), but there may be just (setting) sun and no moon in the sky. Or what did you mean? What mistake?

"So a proper Durin's Day celebration should begin on a Saturday evening. What kind of celebrating is appropriate for that time?"

Some Dwarvish kind? I have no idea of their merry-making. Drink a lot is all that comes to mind, this may be all wrong, but even if there are any Dwarves around they will not tell. So other races - if it occurs to them to celebrate this sort of thing - are left to their own devices.

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Date: Nov 15, 2013
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Maybe I misinterpreted this. What do you mean?

"The right first moon may rise after the sunset and then no Durin's day - correct? "

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Lorelline
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Date: Nov 15, 2013
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I meant that the sun may set before the moon rises. I thought that on Durin's Day both of them should be visible at the same time. No?

On the matter of this thread, are there also plans to map Aman? If yes, do you have an idea of the scale of Aman's maps? I once was concerned with the distance between Tirion and Halls of Taniquetil. I don't think this issue was cleared up.

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Date: Nov 15, 2013
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I haven't yet figured out Aman. It's basically the North American continent. The distance is just about right for that.

The sun may set before the moon rises but only if it's past the full moon; that is, waning.

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Lorelline
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With the moon phases and the sunrise/sunset timing it doesn't look obvious but I don't have any counter-example.

And as to Aman being North America, how is that possible if Tirion is located at the equator ('Girdle of Arda')? That explains why the so-called 'flight' of the Noldor took so long.

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Date: Nov 19, 2013
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I was looking at the map "Third Age Northwestern Middle-earth." There is some land in the northwestern section that corresponds to Labrador. But, yes, if the girdle of Arda is the equator then Aman would include South America as well. Aman=America.

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