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Topic: A Guided Tour of Middle-earth

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James the Just
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 134
Date: Sep 19, 2013
A Guided Tour of Middle-earth
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"If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy." (L294)

The Lalaith site,

http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Grid.html

has come up with an excellent idea for overlaying a map of Middle-earth over that of Europe.  
I've come up with an alternative that I think works out better. It follows similar principles to that at the Lalaith site but it has the prime meridian at Hobbiton instead of Rivendell. The former is exactly where Oxford is at, while Minas Tirith is not only at the same latitude as Florence, but is nearly on top of it. Edoras is just north of Mont Blanc, or the 'White Mountain', the tallest mountain in Europe. Fangorn and southern Lorien is right where the Black Forest is. Even better, the mountains to the west of the Rhine Valley line up perfectly with the Misty Mountains. There are so many great coincidences it's ridiculous.

The computer programs I use to generate the latitudes and longitudes are here, written in JustBasic. 
 
100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MIDDLE-EARTH MAP"
110 PRINT "UP IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE BOTTOM"
120 PRINT "RIGHT IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE LEFT"
130 PRINT
140 INPUT "NORMAL=0, HOBBIT=1, RETURN=2: ";MAP
150 PRINT
160 INPUT "UP: ";U
170 IF U=999 THEN END
180 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-59)/3.6+123
190 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-82)/3.2+54
200 INPUT "RIGHT: ";R
210 IF R=999 THEN END
220 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-25)/3.6+92
230 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-103)/3.2+122
240 PRINT
250 N=(U-122)*(2/17)+51.76666667
260 E=(R-43)*(2/17)/(COS(N/57.295779513))-1.25
270 DN=INT(N)
280 MN=INT((N-DN)*60)
290 IF E>0 THEN L$="E" ELSE L$="W"
300 E=ABS(E)
310 DE=INT(E)
320 ME=INT((E-DE)*60)
330 PRINT "LAT: ";DN;" ";MN;" N"
340 PRINT "LON: ";DE;" ";ME;" ";L$
350 PRINT
360 GOTO 160

100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MAP OF EUROPE"
110 PRINT "PUT LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE IN DECIMAL FORM"
120 PRINT "PUT DEGREES WEST IN NEGATIVE FORM"
130 PRINT
140 INPUT "NORMAL=0, HOBBIT=1, RETURN=2: ";MAP
150 PRINT
160 INPUT "NORTH: ";N
170 IF N=999 THEN END
200 INPUT "EAST: ";E
210 IF E=999 THEN END
240 PRINT
250 U=(N-51.76666667)/(2/17)+122
260 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-123)*3.6+59
270 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-54)*3.2+82
280 R=(E+1.25)*(COS(N/57.295779513))/(2/17)+43
290 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-92)*3.6+25
300 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-122)*3.2+103
310 U=INT(U*10+0.5)
320 R=INT(R*10+0.5)
330 U=U/10:R=R/10
340 PRINT "UP: ";U
350 PRINT "RIGHT: ";R
360 PRINT
370 GOTO 160


The small scale maps are the ones found in The Hobbit and The Return of the King.
To convert from one to another use these formulas:
 
U=(U-59)/3.6+123
R=(R-25)/3.6+92

U=(U-82)/3.2+54
R=(R-103)/3.2+122

U=(U-123)*3.6+59
R=(R-92)*3.6+25

U=(U-54)*3.2+82
R=(R-122)*3.2+103
 
They're not perfect but provide the closet fit possible, I think.
 
All you have to do is copy and paste it to any computer that has installed JustBasic.  It's very simple.  Here's an example of the program being run:
 
INPUT COORDINATES FROM MIDDLE-EARTH MAP
UP IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE BOTTOM
RIGHT IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE LEFT
 
HOBBIT=1, RETURN=2: 2
 
UP:    132
RIGHT: 133
 
LAT:   45 36 N
LON:   13 36 E

A Guided Tour of Middle-earth.

Rivendell is where Warendorf is now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Warendorf_StMarien_4585.jpg

Beorn in Magdeburg?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vista_Magdeburg.jpg

The Elvenking's Halls are in Drawa Natiobnal Park.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Drawienski_Park_Narodowy_-_jezioro_Ostrowieckie_1.jpg

In Hildesheim, we find the place where Bilbo, Gandalf, and the dwarves were menaced by goblins and wargs but rescued by the eagles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MichaeliskircheMagdalenengarten.jpg

Dol Guldur is somewhere around Nuremburg.  Here is Nuremburg castle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%D0%9D%D1%8E%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3.%D0%91%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B3_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4_%D1%81_%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%85%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%B0_2.jpg

Tom Bombadil's place is by Clacton-on-the-sea.  They have found remains there, such as a wooden spear, which date back 400,000 years!  How  old was this guy anyway?  Here are their Memorial Gardens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clacton_memorial_gardens.jpg

The West-gate of Moria lies somewhere around Saarbrucken while the East-gate is in the direction of Mannheim.  Here is a Mithraic temple found on Halberg Hill in Saarbrucken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Saarbr%C3%BCcken_Halberg_Mithrash%C3%B6hle.JPG

Caras Galadhon in Lothlorien should be right where Stuttgart is.  Here is Rosenstein Park in that city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rosensteinpark_Stuttgart.jpg

At the end of the mountains and before the plain near Verona lies Italy's largest lake.  Somewhere around the southern part of it is where the Falls of Rauros once were.  Here is the northern part.  Two giant statues appear to be missing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Benacus_creino.jpg

Edoras is very close to the highest peak in Western Europe, Mont Blanc, or the White mountain.  In the map of Middle-earth Edoras is just north of the White Mountains.  Here is a view of Mont Blanc from the northern valley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Chamonix_valley_from_la_Fl%C3%A9g%C3%A8re,2010_07.JPG

Irensaga is Mont Blanc, or the White Mountain, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mont_Blanc_depuis_Valmorel.jpg

Starkhorn is Grande Casse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:La_grande_casse_massif_vanoise.JPG

And the Haunted Mountain, or Dwimoberg, is Gran Paradiso. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gran_Paradiso.jpg

Isengard may be around Besancon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Besancon_boucle_Doubs.jpg

Helm's Deep is around Vercors plateau.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vercors_Glandasse.jpg

This area contains the Vercors Cave System.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cuves_de_Sassenge.jpg

The Black Forest is in the same position as Fangorn.  Could Feldberg be Treebeard's Hill?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Feldberg_fg1.jpg

Tolkien said that Minas Tirith was at the same latitude as Florence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SanMiniatoAlMonte-Cimetiere.jpg

Mile high Mount Falterona could be Mount Mindollin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Monte_Falco.jpg

Could Minas Tirith itself be near Bagno di Romagna?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bagno_di_Romagna-Medicis.jpg

Osgiliath is right on coastal town of Rimini, Italy.  Here is the Arch of Augustus in that town.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arco_d%27Augusto.JPG

Here is the Mausoleum of Theoderic in Ravenna, where Cair Andros was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mausoleum_of_Theoderic.JPG

Dol Amroth is on the island of Port-Cros, off the coast of southern France, near Toulon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Port-Cros_%2883%29_-_C%C3%B4te_ouest.JPG

The Black Gate is in Trieste.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arcoromano.jpg

Mount Doom is on Cres Island, off of Croatia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vransko_jez._na_otoku_Cresu.jpg

And the Black Tower is in the ancient city of Senj, Croatia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nehaj_Senj_Croatia_01.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SenjNehajgrad0.jpg

The Gulf of Lune is now where the Bristol Channel is.  Somewhere at the eastern end is the Grey Havens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bristol.channel.ilfracombe.arp.750pix.jpg



-- Edited by James the Just on Thursday 19th of September 2013 08:23:09 PM



-- Edited by James the Just on Thursday 19th of September 2013 08:25:21 PM



-- Edited by James the Just on Thursday 19th of September 2013 08:35:04 PM



-- Edited by James the Just on Thursday 19th of September 2013 08:37:18 PM

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Laurelin
Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Date: Sep 25, 2013
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I love this! I've always wondered what what where when trying to picture the maps. Thank you. But, I've also tried to imagine the races of ME and how they line up with the peoples of Europe. The maps and my imagination don't match.

By the way, do you know of any really detailed maps of ME. I've seen the ones on the forums and I've seen a few others, but I mean super detailed and perhaps even with the routes taken by the adventureres.



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James the Just
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Date: Sep 25, 2013
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The Atlas of Middle-earth by Karen Fonstad is filled with very detailed maps and not only includes the paths taken but the days they were at each point.

The peoples of Middle-earth would certainly have been quite different from what we find today. It was 6,000 years ago. A lot has changed since then so let your imagination run free. The mummies they've found in Egypt don't much resemble the pharoahs as portrayed in the movie The Ten Commandments, for instance.

Here's some more for you:

The Mouths of the Anduin are at the Straights of Bonifacio, between Sardinia and Corsica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bonifacio_2.jpg

Nindalf, or Wetwang, may be around the area of the Venetian Lagoon. Here is the island of Torcello.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TorcelloLagune.jpg

The Dead Marshes lie around Gemona del Friuli.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tagliamento_Gemona_del_Friuli_01112007_02.jpg

The Battle Plains of Dagorlad may extend all the way to the ancient town of Aquileia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Udine_aquileia2.jpg



-- Edited by James the Just on Wednesday 2nd of October 2013 09:21:29 PM

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Lorelline
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How can one resist the temptation of running a BASIC program?..
It does run with the archaic interpreter just as well, with the same results (of course if should). But it asks for a "normal" map, what is that? Then, one needs to know how to terminate the program (not obvious without reading the program - may as well notify the user to input 999). There are different editions, and the sizes and scales of maps are different, which one is this program using? The maps have scales which might be used in the program I guess (or are they used? Doesn't look like it). One RotK edition I have has just one map - places to the east of Misty Montains. Another has three maps - the Shire, "all" Middle-earth, and again the places to the east of Misty Mountains. I am sure there are more maps out there.
Are the conversions for the RotK maps to The Hobbit maps (I wasn't sure)?
Not to mention that the most realistic places, Beleriand and Aman, are not mapped.

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Lórellinë
Laurelin
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Date: Sep 26, 2013
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Even though by our time it was 6000 years ago, I've always pictured more in the King Arthur type days, not quite the Bog People time, or actually even before them.

About 1 year ago I posted a map of ME as Cold War Europe. That was a little more on how I saw the peoples of ME. Am I showing my age there? I will check out the maps you suggested.

And how right you are about the pharaohs, but I love watching Yul Brynner either way.

 

 



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Jaidoprism7
Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 26, 2013
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I dunno,

By my calculations the Stone of Erech is now the location of a very lucrative Starbuck's in Catania, Italy.

Good Day....

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Bear
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Date: Sep 26, 2013
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LOL!
Doesn't the European "Disney World" fit in here?

Could I ask one of the Riders of Rohan for a cappuccino?



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Jaidoprism7
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Yes they're all baristas now...   wink



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Bear
Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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LOL! (like)



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James the Just
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Date: Sep 27, 2013
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Lorelline*:

Following in the tradition of computer programming these days I wrote the program in such a way as to make it difficult as possible to use without calling our helpline ($2.99 per minute).  Just kidding.

"Normal" means the "all" Middle-earth map.  "Hobbit" is the map in The Hobbit that goes from Rivendell to The Lonely Mountain and beyond.  And "Return" is the map in The Return of the King that goes from Edoras to Mordor.  I'm working on a conversion for the map in The Fellowship of the Ring that has Hobbiton and its environs.  Interestingly, Stonehenge can be found on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stonehenge2007_07_30.jpg

I guess I wrongly assumed that the maps are the same size in the different editions.  The ones I use are in the paperbacks and are 190 millimeters across.  The "all" Middle-earth maps in FOTR and TT are about 157 mm high.  

An easier way to find how far something is across on the maps that are on the right hand page is to measure how far left they are and subtract that from 190 mm.

I think I must rewrite these programs to make them more user friendly.  Or at least provide better instructions.

I did a little work on Beleriand last night and the only things I could find that could be placed on dry land are Lake Helevorn and Mount Rerir.  Again, there is good luck.  Lough Neagh in Ireland is just to the southwest of the Antrim Mountains.  It's a pretty big lake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lough_Neagh_at_Shane%27s_Castle_-_geograph.org.uk_-_155427.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glenariff,_County_Antrim,_Ireland,_1890s.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Causeway-code_poet-4.jpg

Laurelin*:

"Even though by our time it was 6000 years ago, I've always pictured more in the King Arthur type days, not quite the Bog People time, or actually even before them."

Same here!

"About 1 year ago I posted a map of ME as Cold War Europe. That was a little more on how I saw the peoples of ME."

Yes.  I saw that map and copied the image onto my photo collection.  I had no idea it was yours.  Way cool!

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://darussophiledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/europe-middle

On my map Mirkwood and East Germany are almost synonymous.  The Mountains of Mirkwood are right where Berlin is.  I guess they got bombed out during the War of the Ring.

* Did you know that your names were used as shibboleths in the Pacific theater during WW II?



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Laurelin
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FYI to all, the Cold War ME map was not my creation. I saw it somewhere, or maybe it came from a family member. But, sadly, my talents to do not include map making.

And Jaido and Bear, you all crack me up biggrin



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Lorelline
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Humorous - just with this or actually with each of your topics? Are they not sophisticated jokes as I have been thinking all along?

But how funny indeed, I should be able to pick up an anachronism concerning Tolkien's world, but not the real world... not right away in any event. 



-- Edited by Lorelline on Sunday 29th of September 2013 08:33:22 PM

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Lórellinë
Lorelline
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Date: Sep 30, 2013
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Appallingly, indeed my name can be a perfect shibboleth, perhaps better than 'Laurelin' since Japanese "ra" is not unlike "la" but I don't recall "ro" pronounced by them as "lo"... and of course they wouldn't put the stress right (as if that matters). I highly doubt it though that my name as spelled/pronounced was ever used by anyone because it is a derivative, but it is upsetting enough if the parent-word Lorellin was used for that purpose.

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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I was trying to be humorous.  Sigh.



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James the Just
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My topics are serious. I'm just a bit of a clown. I guess I've got a little Gnomish in me.

O! What are you doing,
And where are you going?
Your ponies need shoeing!
The River is flowing!
O! Tra-la-la-lally
Here down in the valley!

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Lorelline
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Gnomish? Like a Noldo? (Not the Feanorian kind to be sure).
'James the Just' a clown, isn't that a joke?
Whenever I suspect a trick, I am always tempted (by an evil spirit within) to push it further just to see how far it would go, and reply accordingly. Any BASIC updates?

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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Gnomish is meant in a more general sense. The more traditional underground faeries who are known for their playfulness and pranks comes to mind.

The Noldor were known as the Deep Elves, so I can see why they might be considered Gnomes. But just as 'Dark Elves' can refer to the Avari alone or those who never went to Aman, whether Avari or Eldar, Gnomes can sometimes be more broadly defined. Maybe a Valley Elf could be one. At least that's my theory.

I'm holding off on the BASIC update until I've made sure I've gotten the conversion factors right for the map of the Shire. Posting the wrong ones could cause a lot of headaches and embarrassment. This isn't as easy as it looks. Doing it for the other two small scale maps was a lot of work.

This might do for now:

100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MIDDLE-EARTH MAP"
110 PRINT "UP IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE BOTTOM"
120 PRINT "RIGHT IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE LEFT"
130 PRINT
140 INPUT "HEIGHT OF MAP IN MM";HM
150 IF HM=0 THEN HM=157:PRINT
160 PRINT "TYPE OF MAP"
170 INPUT "MAIN=0, HOBBIT=1, RETURN=2: ";MAP
180 PRINT
190 PRINT "TO END INPUT 999"
200 PRINT
210 INPUT "UP: ";U
220 U=U*157/HM
230 IF U=999 THEN END
240 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-59)/3.6+123
250 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-82)/3.2+54
260 INPUT "RIGHT: ";R
270 R=R*157/HM
280 IF R=999 THEN END
290 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-25)/3.6+92
300 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-103)/3.2+122
310 PRINT
320 N=(U-122)*(2/17)+51.75
330 E=(R-43)*(2/17)/(COS(N/57.295779513))-1.25
340 DN=INT(N)
350 MN=INT((N-DN)*60)
360 IF E>0 THEN L$="E" ELSE L$="W"
370 E=ABS(E)
380 DE=INT(E)
390 ME=INT((E-DE)*60)
400 PRINT "LAT: ";DN;" ";MN;" N"
410 PRINT "LON: ";DE;" ";ME;" ";L$
420 PRINT
430 GOTO 210

100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MAP OF EUROPE"
110 PRINT "PUT LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE IN DECIMAL FORM"
120 PRINT "PUT DEGREES WEST IN NEGATIVE FORM"
130 PRINT
140 INPUT "HEIGHT OF MAP IN MM";HM
150 IF HM=0 THEN HM=157:PRINT
160 PRINT "TYPE OF MAP"
170 INPUT "MAIN=0, HOBBIT=1, RETURN=2: ";MAP
180 PRINT
190 PRINT "TO END INPUT 999"
200 PRINT
210 INPUT "NORTH: ";N
220 N=N*157/HM
230 IF N=999 THEN END
240 INPUT "EAST: ";E
250 E=E*157/HM
260 IF E=999 THEN END
270 PRINT
280 U=(N-51.75)/(2/17)+122
290 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-123)*3.6+59
300 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-54)*3.2+82
310 R=(E+1.25)*(COS(N/57.295779513))/(2/17)+43
320 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-92)*3.6+25
330 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-122)*3.2+103
340 U=INT(U*10+0.5)
350 R=INT(R*10+0.5)
360 U=U/10:R=R/10
370 PRINT "UP: ";U
380 PRINT "RIGHT: ";R
390 PRINT
400 GOTO 210

I was looking at the Maps of Arda page at this site and decided to check out where some of the far off places might be. On the Third Age Northwestern Middle-earth map the piece of land sticking out in the northwest is just off the coast of Labrador. Meneltarma, or The Pillar of Heaven, the little island at the south end of the map, is right where the Portuguese Madeira Islands are!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Madeiran_coastline,_near_Sao_Jorge.jpg

Atalante, or Atlantis, is where the Azores-Gibraltar Ridge is. Coincidence?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores-Gibraltar_Transform_Fault



-- Edited by James the Just on Tuesday 1st of October 2013 07:06:23 PM



-- Edited by James the Just on Saturday 5th of October 2013 10:58:02 PM

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Lorelline
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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"The Noldor were known as the Deep Elves... " - well, in Tolkien's works the Noldor were called Gnomes for quite a long time, even in Quenta Sillmarillion in HoMe Vol. V.

Coincidence or not - I guess that could be tested.
What percent of the territory of Europe (or of the area to which you are mapping Middle-earth) is covered by say castles or fortresses (or whatever)? Then when mapping the Middle-earth castles/fortresses, do you get a higher percent of correspondence with the real things than what you expect by chance alone?
Or maybe you can employ the random number generator (not sure how but you may have a clue; I don't mean the programming side of it of course, that's easy).

In the program, are you assuming the maps are framed - line 140, to input the height of the map? They are not always - do you mean the length of the page? I guess the purpose is to put all maps on the same scale; if yes, why not use scale bars?

(Of course I still think it is a prank but it makes no practical difference; I would still be interested to map Himring/Himling)


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Lórellinë
James the Just
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Laurelin:

Yes, Aman is North America. There is a reason Aman and America sound similar.
The key to blissfulness is ignorance. Don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
After 6,000 years even Elves get a little old. They may have moved south.

Lorelline:

Here's a map of castles. I don't know how random it is.

myreadingmapped.blogspot.com/2011/09/interactive-map-of-my-favorite-classic.html

I'm assuming the maps are framed. Note that in the programs below I've changed it to ask for the width instead of height. I'm assuming most of the maps are 190 mm across; that is the default setting. Just hit 'enter' for that.

I spent all night on these improvements.

100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MIDDLE-EARTH MAP"
110 PRINT "UP IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE BOTTOM"
120 PRINT "RIGHT IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE LEFT"
130 PRINT
140 PRINT "TYPE OF MAP"
150 INPUT "MAIN=0, HOBBIT=1, FELLOWSHIP=2, RETURN=4: ";MAP
160 PRINT
170 INPUT "WIDTH OF MAP: ";WM
180 PRINT
190 IF WM=0 THEN WM=190:GOTO 210
200 IF MAP=2 THEN WM=WM*190/149
210 PRINT "TO END INPUT 999"
220 PRINT
230 INPUT "UP: ";U
240 IF U=999 THEN END
250 U=U*190/WM
260 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-59)/3.6+123
270 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-56)/7.2+122
280 IF MAP=4 THEN U=(U-82)/3.2+54
290 INPUT "RIGHT: ";R
300 IF R=999 THEN END
310 R=R*190/WM
320 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-25)/3.6+92
330 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-45)/7.2+43
340 IF MAP=4 THEN R=(R-103)/3.2+122
350 PRINT
360 N=(U-122)*(2/17)+51.75
370 E=(R-43)*(2/17)/(COS(N/57.295779513))-1.25
380 DN=INT(N)
390 MN=INT((N-DN)*60)
400 IF E>0 THEN L$="E" ELSE L$="W"
410 E=ABS(E)
420 DE=INT(E)
430 ME=INT((E-DE)*60)
440 PRINT "LAT: ";DN;" ";MN;" N"
450 PRINT "LON: ";DE;" ";ME;" ";L$
460 PRINT
470 GOTO 230

100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MAP OF EUROPE"
110 PRINT "PUT LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE IN DECIMAL FORM"
120 PRINT "PUT DEGREES WEST IN NEGATIVE FORM"
130 PRINT
140 PRINT "TYPE OF MAP"
150 INPUT "MAIN=0, HOBBIT=1, FELLOWSHIP=2, RETURN=4: ";MAP
160 PRINT
170 INPUT "WIDTH OF MAP: ";WM
180 PRINT
190 IF WM=0 AND MAP<>2 THEN WM=190
200 IF WM=0 AND MAP=2 THEN WM=149
210 PRINT "TO END INPUT 999"
220 PRINT
230 INPUT "NORTH: ";N
240 IF N=999 THEN END
250 INPUT "EAST:  ";E
260 IF E=999 THEN END
270 PRINT
280 U=(N-51.75)/(2/17)+122
290 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-123)*3.6+59
300 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-122)*7.2+56
310 IF MAP=4 THEN U=(U-54)*3.2+82
320 IF MAP<>2 THEN U=U*WM/190 ELSE U=U*WM/149
330 R=(E+1.25)*(COS(N/57.295779513))/(2/17)+43
340 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-92)*3.6+25
350 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-43)*7.2+45
360 IF MAP=4 THEN R=(R-122)*3.2+103
370 IF MAP<>2 THEN R=R*WM/190 ELSE R=R*WM/149
380 U=INT(U*10+0.5)
390 R=INT(R*10+0.5)
400 U=U/10:R=R/10
410 PRINT "UP:    ";U
420 PRINT "RIGHT: ";R
430 PRINT
440 GOTO 230

 Atalante is Atlantis, which was on the Azores-Gibraltar Transform Fault. Could the Azores Islands be the last remnant?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Azoren_%2814%29.jpg

 My formula produces a map similar to some of these.  There is a poorly drawn black and white one there that almost matches exactly mine but I can't link to it for some reason (I don't know who drew it).

One of the problems with the map is that some land areas of Middle-earth are underwater.

www.google.com/search

During the last glacial period Europe's land area was greater due to a lower sea level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weichsel-W%C3%BCrm-Glaciation.png

 



-- Edited by James the Just on Wednesday 2nd of October 2013 11:38:41 PM



-- Edited by James the Just on Friday 4th of October 2013 01:29:09 AM

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Laurelin
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"On the Third Age Northwestern Middle-earth map the piece of land sticking out in the northwest is just off the coast of Labrador"

So, it looks like ME made it to the New World. How odd, when heading west in ME and on our Earth, does that mean Aman is North America?! Not too blissful here if that's the case. Or maybe it lands us somewhere in the Atlantic or even better, the Jersey Shore (LOL)!!



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Lorelline
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The map of the real castles shouldn't be random - it should reflect what is over there in Europe. Looks like Europe is crawling with the castles, and everything is covered with them (did you create the castle map? Just wondering). Then a lot depends on how precisely you define your hit - exact on top or in some neighborhood, and if the latter, how wide is that neighborhood? Chance alone can explain quite a lot, and that's not what you are looking for.


As to the framed maps, great to have them, but what if they are not available? Could you start counting millimeters from some (clearly defined) place on the map and not from the frame (are you assuming the proportional width of the frame as well?), and ask for the width or the height also in terms of some defined points (westernmost to easternmost for example) if you don't like the provided scales (maybe they are not shown on every map)?


I didn't look into it attentively enough, are you assuming the same radius of Arda as that of Earth (if you use that at all)?


"The key to blissfulness is ignorance. Don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge." After the discussion in your previous equally serious topic one is really hard pressed to it to understand what is implied here.


"I spent all night on these improvements." This makes me jealous (unless this is a prank)



-- Edited by Lorelline on Thursday 3rd of October 2013 10:11:51 PM

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No, I didn't create that map.

I try to define my hits as closely to what the numbers say within reason. I'll give a millimeter or so, which translates to about 10 miles in any direction, sometimes more. It depends on whether or not there is an obvious place to put it or not. The Dark Tower might be an example. The numbers said it should be inland a few miles, but when I saw that fortress I had to take it.

"As to the framed maps, great to have them, but what if they are not available? Could you start counting millimeters from some (clearly defined) place on the map and not from the frame (are you assuming the proportional width of the frame as well?), and ask for the width or the height also in terms of some defined points (westernmost to easternmost for example) if you don't like the provided scales (maybe they are not shown on every map)?"

I use these as exact definitions (on the main map):

Hobbiton 122 mm up 43 mm right
Minas Tirith 54 mm up 122 mm right

You should be able to work out the rest from there.

By the way, I made an error in the second program. I'll edit that post now.

"I didn't look into it attentively enough, are you assuming the same radius of Arda as that of Earth (if you use that at all)?"

Yes. Arda is Earth. More than that, I assume that Earth did not become round at the end of the Second Age; It was a sphere all along. They may have simply discovered its roundness then. Drastic geological changes are not necessary to make Middle-earth a reality. That's why the map of Europe during the last ice age was shown, so it can be seen how well it would fit in with the map of Middle-earth.

I found a map by some other person that's almost exactly the same as mine. I hope the link works.

s24.photobucket.com/user/maxphotouk/media/middleearth3.jpg.html#/user/maxphotouk/media/middleearth3.jpg.html?&_suid=1380845426252046813703423625763

Compare it with the ice age map and see how well everything fits together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Weichsel-W%C3%BCrm-Glaciation.png

It's a lot better than this very popular map shown here:

3rings.webs.com/geography

That one requires drastic earth changes. And it doesn't fit in with what Tolkien said. Still, it is quite beautiful.

"'I spent all night on these improvements.' This makes me jealous (unless this is a prank)"

Well, I did it again. I finished writing this up this afternoon.

Using the program to calculate latitudes and longitudes for the map of a part of the Shire in The Fellowship of the Ring a list of correspondences can be made. The bounds of the map go from somewhat south of Southampton, where it says 'To Longbottom', to Gloucester in the west, where it says 'To Little Delving', barely missing Northampton, where it says 'To Oatbarton', and Cambridge in the north, above the 'Q' in 'Scary Quarry', to east of Ipswich and southeast of Dover, just missing the coast of France, to as far south as Hastings. Stonehenge is just east and midway down the road that heads south from Tooksank to the fork that goes to Sarn Ford or Longbottom.

The map is based on a quote of Tolkien's that Hobbiton is at the same latitude as Oxford. It can be placed at the same longitude as well, and that is where we shall start.

Hobbiton Oxford
The Hill Cotswold Hills
Overhill Woodstock
Rushock Bog Vale of Evesham
Needlehole Worcester
Nobottle Malvern
Waymoot Swindon
Tooksank Devizes
Tuckborough Newbury
Pincup Reigate
Bywater Reading
Three Farthing Stone High Wycombe
Brockenborings Bedford
Scary Quarry Royston Cave
Whitfurrows NE London (Brentwood)
Frogmorton NW London (Waterford)
Woodhall SE London (Gravesend)
Woody End North Downs
Willowbottom Vale of Sussex (Rye)
Deephallow Vale of Kent (Hythe)
Rushy Ashford
Bucklebury Sheppey
Stock Southend-on-sea (Prittlewell)
Brandywine Bridge Maldon
Newbury Foulness
Standelf Hedge Canterbury
Haysend Folkstone
Overbourn Marshes Straight of Dover








-- Edited by James the Just on Friday 4th of October 2013 01:31:27 AM



-- Edited by James the Just on Saturday 5th of October 2013 10:34:22 PM

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Lorelline
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What could be done is a number of random coordinates could be generated and mapped to Europe and you can see how often you land on a castle or something like that. It will at least give an idea of what role pure chance plays in all this. My opinion is that the burden of proof lies with you (if you care at all).

The coordinates for Hobbiton and Minas Tirith do help to rescale maps, but I am not clear on from where the measurement starts. Up from what - the map's frame? The bottom of the page? From a set landmark? The same for " right".

"Arda is Earth. More than that, I assume that Earth did not become round at the end of the Second Age; It was a sphere all along. They may have simply discovered its roundness then. "
Then this is consistent with 'Myth Transformed' - and you seem to also use the chronology consistent with that concept. At least that all fits together... but as was discussed in Dior Eluchil topic, this variant of chronology doesn't fit the events all too well.

"I try to define my hits as closely to what the numbers say within reason. I'll give a millimeter or so, which translates to about 10 miles in any direction, sometimes more."
Now it should be easy to compute the proportion of the area of the output map covered with castles (or other things) if their number is known. Of course only if you want to 'prove' at least something. So far it looks more like a belief.


"It depends on whether or not there is an obvious place to put it or not." "There are so many great coincidences it's ridiculous. "
Not a good argument at all, because you can find something almost always. That's how it becomes ridiculous. Or rather hilarious!

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I don't think the 'great coincidences' are the castles and such. I deliberately look for them, so it isn't chance at all. It is how well the geography matches that of Middle-earth. For instance, there is no better place in Europe to place the Misty Mountains than lined up with the mountains west of the Rhine Valley. There is also no better place for Fangorn and Lorien than in the most famous forest in Europe; the Black Forest. The Mines of Moria are in a heavily mined area. Edoras is north of the 'White Mountain.' Helm's Deep is in an area with one of the largest cave systems. There is no other lake of the right size, shape, and direction for Nen Hithoel than Lake Garda, and it's also in a moutainous area before a plain. It just goes on and on.

One way to check how coincidental it is is to fiddle with the numbers a bit. Change the (2/17) in lines 360 and 370 in the first program of the recently modified ones to 0.14, for instance. That is the number I first used when developing this and the results were awful.

"The coordinates for Hobbiton and Minas Tirith do help to rescale maps, but I am not clear on from where the measurement starts. Up from what - the map's frame? The bottom of the page? From a set landmark? The same for " right"."

I use the frame in the maps found in the paperback Ballantine editions. Just pull out a ruler and measure up from the bottom black line and that is your 'up.' Do the same for 'right', but use the left side frame, of course. To make it easier, remember that the width of it should be 190 mm, so just use subtraction to get the 'right' numbers for the part of the map on the right hand page.

The only thing I am trying to prove is that this is the best mapping system out there. I dare to say that no one can come up with something better. If they can I shall diminish and go into the west.

Coming soon: Beleriand mapped.




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Never mind, that map is plain deplorable and not framed - it is not for lack of a ruler that there is trouble with it. After some measurements and rescaling (of course the coefficient has to be the the same West-East and North-South but by naive measuring it isn't because part of the map is not visible) I came up with the placement for the frame assuming it is symmetrical - at the equal distance from all extreme points (N,S,W,E). But it is simply no good for any serious purpose, nor for mapping (junk in, junk out).

Well, if by altering numbers you lose the fit, then that's something. Castles were just an example, geological structures are perhaps better.

Are you planning to use any underwater structures for 'reality check' when mapping Beleriand?

On a totally different note, I recall you asked for some references from Morgoth's Ring, but did you actually want any pages copied from there? It did not occur to me to ask then.

 



-- Edited by Lorelline on Tuesday 8th of October 2013 03:02:49 PM



-- Edited by Lorelline on Tuesday 8th of October 2013 03:45:38 PM

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I'm going to read Morgoth's Ring again so I'm sure I'll find what I'm looking for.

The sea floor doesn't do too badly for Beleriand, considering how easy it could go wrong. Once you drop off of the continental shelf explanations could get very difficult.

Well, here's one for Beleriand, anyhow. It's based on the map in The Silmarillion (which is framed).

These programs can be used to calculate latitudes and longitudes for the map of Beleriand and the lands to the north. The eastern bounds of the map go from somewhat east of Brest, France, up to Fort Augustus, Scotland, which is on the southern tip of Loch Ness. The whole of Ireland, with the Gnomes in the north and the Green Elves in the south, and the far western parts of Britain are covered. The western boundaries are in the Atlantic Ocean, obviously. But what is interesting is how well the sea floor matches with what is found on the map.

100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MIDDLE-EARTH MAP"
110 PRINT "UP IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE BOTTOM"
120 PRINT "RIGHT IS MILLIMETERS FROM THE LEFT"
130 PRINT
140 PRINT "TYPE OF MAP"
150 INPUT "SILMARILLION=0, HOBBIT=1, FELLOWSHIP=2, GENERAL=3, RETURN=4: ";MAP
160 PRINT
170 INPUT "WIDTH OF MAP: ";WM
180 PRINT
190 IF WM=0 THEN WM=190:GOTO 210
200 IF MAP=2 THEN WM=WM*190/149
210 PRINT "TO END INPUT 999"
220 PRINT
230 INPUT "UP: ";U
240 IF U=999 THEN END
250 U=U*190/WM
260 IF MAP=0 THEN U=(U-114)/2+148
270 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-59)/3.6+123
280 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-56)/7.2+122
290 IF MAP=4 THEN U=(U-82)/3.2+54
300 INPUT "RIGHT: ";R
310 IF R=999 THEN END
320 R=R*190/WM
330 IF MAP=0 THEN R=(R-174)/2+21
340 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-25)/3.6+92
350 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-45)/7.2+43
360 IF MAP=4 THEN R=(R-103)/3.2+122
370 PRINT
380 N=(U-122)*(2/17)+51.75
390 E=(R-43)*(2/17)/(COS(N/57.295779513))-1.25
400 DN=INT(N)
410 MN=INT((N-DN)*60)
420 IF E>0 THEN L$="E" ELSE L$="W"
430 E=ABS(E)
440 DE=INT(E)
450 ME=INT((E-DE)*60)
460 PRINT "LAT: ";DN;" ";MN;" N"
470 PRINT "LON: ";DE;" ";ME;" ";L$
480 PRINT
490 GOTO 230

100 PRINT "INPUT COORDINATES FROM MAP OF EUROPE"
110 PRINT "PUT LATITUDE AND LONGITUDE IN DECIMAL FORM"
120 PRINT "PUT DEGREES WEST IN NEGATIVE FORM"
130 PRINT
140 PRINT "TYPE OF MAP"
150 INPUT "SILMARILLION=0, HOBBIT=1, FELLOWSHIP=2, GENERAL=3, RETURN=4: ";MAP
160 PRINT
170 INPUT "WIDTH OF MAP: ";WM
180 PRINT
190 IF WM=0 AND MAP<>2 THEN WM=190
200 IF WM=0 AND MAP=2 THEN WM=149
210 PRINT "TO END INPUT 999"
220 PRINT
230 INPUT "NORTH: ";N
240 IF N=999 THEN END
250 INPUT "EAST: ";E
260 IF E=999 THEN END
270 PRINT
280 U=(N-51.75)/(2/17)+122
290 IF MAP=0 THEN U=(U-148)*2+114
300 IF MAP=1 THEN U=(U-123)*3.6+59
310 IF MAP=2 THEN U=(U-122)*7.2+56
320 IF MAP=4 THEN U=(U-54)*3.2+82
330 IF MAP<>2 THEN U=U*WM/190 ELSE U=U*WM/149
340 R=(E+1.25)*(COS(N/57.295779513))/(2/17)+43
350 IF MAP=0 THEN R=(R-21)*2+174
360 IF MAP=1 THEN R=(R-92)*3.6+25
370 IF MAP=2 THEN R=(R-43)*7.2+45
380 IF MAP=4 THEN R=(R-122)*3.2+103
390 IF MAP<>2 THEN R=R*WM/190 ELSE R=R*WM/149
400 U=INT(U*10+0.5)
410 R=INT(R*10+0.5)
420 U=U/10:R=R/10
430 PRINT "UP: ";U
440 PRINT "RIGHT: ";R
450 PRINT
460 GOTO 230



-- Edited by James the Just on Thursday 31st of October 2013 04:51:45 PM

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Lorelline
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I am out of luck as ever (ironically as it seems, because running a BASIC program - and not just running - is fun). The map I have in The Silmarillion is of course not framed. What is the distance between the frame and the extreme points of land on your map? Or the width of the frame (the distance between the line and the point of land, maybe all 4 if different) might be an input parameter (or parameters), then I would input 0.
I am thinking that the maps of Beleriand found in the War of the Jewels are the best. Very detailed. Nice view on Thangorodrim. I wonder where it would end up, or should I say end down. That sea floor anyhow corresponds to what was in Beleriand is interesting but in a way surprising because that land was so broken before it sank.
I have no clue if you a professional programmer, so it is just an idea - or somebody might have done that already - you may display two maps side by side simultaneously, ME's and the real world's, and then you click the mouse on one map and see the corresponding point on the other map. Even better to see that on a double screen. I am not sure at all that graphics is any good in BASIC nowadays, it used to be primitive.


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The best suggestion I could make is to get a copy of The Silmarillion from a library and make a copy of the map. The height of the map should be 151 mm and the width, as usual, should be 190 mm. It should look like the map of First Age Beleriand in this site's map section.

The sea floor is somewhat similar to, but not quite the same, as Beleriand. It does seem to be a bit broken up, especially in the middle.

I'm not a professional programmer. I'm just a guy who learned BASIC in high school back when the Commodore 64 was the big thing. I've always enjoyed writing programs. It's way cooler, and cheaper, than buying them.

When I saved these pictures on my computer they were right next to each other in their alphabetical order. So when I click the right arrow to see the next picture the next one shows up. You can see a map of M-e and then Europe shows up. It's pretty awesome.

www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/middleearth.html

i24.photobucket.com/albums/c18/maxphotouk/middleearth3.jpg



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Here are some coordinates for the map of Beleriand in The Silmarillion.. With this one version of a map can be converted to another. This can get very tricky as the two maps may very well be contradictory. Trying to solve for this can be very problematical and explains my reluctance to get too involved in that sort of thing. Making the general map of Middle-earth compatible with the one given in The Return of the King was a lot of work, and it still left a lot of unresolved issues.

It can be done, though. The Atlas of Middle-earth claimed that a map of it cannot be made to correspond to that of the modern world but the Lalaith site proved otherwise.

Perfection isn't achievable or necessary. Just try and work out the best possible fit that leads to the fewest inconsistencies and follows as closely as possible the intent of the author.

Himling is 115 up, 141 across. There is an undersea mountain right near by its position that nearly rises to the surface. During a time when the sea level was a little lower it would have been a small island. Mount Rerir is Slemish in the Antrim Mountains at 111 up, 174 across. Lake Helevorn is Lough Neagh at 108 up, 173 across. Mount Dolmed is in Wicklow at 79 up, 178 across. Belegost is 81 and Nogrod 75 up, 184 across.

Thargelion is where Ireland is now while Ossiriand is in the Celtic Sea. East Beleriand extends as far west on the sea floor to the Porcupine Bank while West Beleriand is in the Rockall Trough. The Bay of Balar is in the Porcupine Seabight while the Sea of Belegaer begins where the deep West European Basin does. Hithlum fits neatly right in the southern part of the Rockall Plateau.

From Wikipedia:

Features of the Rockall Plateau have been officially named after features of Middle-earth in the fiction of J. R. R. Tolkien, e.g. Eriador Seamount, Rohan Seamount, Gondor Seamount, Fangorn Bank, Edoras Bank, Lorien Knoll, Isengard Ridge.

This plateau is named after Rockall Island, which is just where Melkor had built the Fortress of Angband.


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Thanks, I will try to see how this works (for Nargothrond and Gondolin maybe). Also thanks for covering the places where the Feanorians have lived, that's most interesting. And I agree programming is fun.

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James the Just
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You can find some of the March of Maedhros on dry land in northern Ireland. The others seem to be in deep water.

If you can find a map showing the names of the various geographical features on the Rockall Plateau you might be able to give them their true names, since that is where Himluth really was, not Eriador, etc. Can you imagine what kind of response you would get if you sent the naming committee a list of corrections?

That's why the programs were put up. So people can find where on Earth just about anything in Middle-earth was. Please post anything you might find.

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Here's what's left of Angband.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rockall-photo_crop.JPG



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Lorelline
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Well I think the naming committee will publicly express their regrets for being so ignorant and will hurry up to immediately rename those places... what else?

Not much is left of Angband, and yet too much. I wonder if anything evil is known about that sorry-looking rock.

Commodore 64 turns out to be a bit antique thing, but it already had some kind of BASIC (2.0?) - is that what you used then? Is it much different from Just Basic?

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On the 10th anniversary of the disaster the Archduke Franz Ferdinand was shot.

The rights to the geological resources around Rockall are in dispute, with the U.K., Ireland, Iceland, and Denmark all making claims. Not that this sort of thing leads to wars.

Helen's Reef is only 2 kilometers away. This makes for three peaks in the middle of nowhere.

Hasselwood Rock is the destroyed cone of an extinct volcano, by the way.



-- Edited by James the Just on Thursday 24th of October 2013 10:50:29 PM

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Eh, all BASIC is pretty much the same.

I'm working on an Elvish calendar and its last year of the midpoint of its Great Year (180 yen or 25,920 normal years) would be 1904. In that year something happened around Rockall. Do you see the breaking waves to the right of Rockall? That's Hasselwood Rock. The SS Norge lost 635 after foundering on it in 1904. There was another incident like this earlier in 1824 when the crew left the women and children to die.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasselwood_Rock

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Norge

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Ok - so this is another finding that should make it to the LOTR's Appendices.

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Was trying to locate Tol Morwen that should appear, according to your program and measurements of the Beleriand's map right from the computer screen, around 51o34' N and 14o36' W. Not sure there is anything around but it should be above the water, or should have been maybe when the water level was lower.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Tuesday 29th of October 2013 08:53:25 PM

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James the Just
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Well, I think you may have found something. The highest point of the Porcupine Bank is only 200 meters below sea level. It is pretty close to the point you've calculated. I'll need to look at a better map of the sea floor to find out its exact position.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcupine_Bank

There is an interactive map here but it doesn't list latitudes or longitude. You can move it around to any point on Earth.

gcmd.nasa.gov/KeywordSearch/Metadata.do[Location%3A+Location_Category%3D%27OCEAN%27%2C+Location_Type%3D%27ATLANTIC+OCEAN%27%2C+Location_Subregion1%3D%27NORTH+ATLANTIC+OCEAN%27]&OrigMetadataNode=GCMD&EntryId=USGS_OFR_00410&MetadataView=Full&MetadataType=0&lbnode=mdlb4

Could you have found the place where the wife and children of Hurin were entombed? So soon after the book came out?

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"So soon after the book came out?" What book do you mean (Narn)? Or are you asking about the location of the Stone of Hapless that is not really indicated on that Silmarillion map? I was using another map to locate it and then placed it on the Silmarillion map; my precision might not be that high.
200 m below the sea level sounds sort of deep to me. If that area of the sea floor was gradually sinking during the last say 10000 years then maybe it is no problem.Actually Wikipedia talks of some recently sunken island in that area. Interesting - if it corresponds to the coordinates that is. 



-- Edited by Lorelline on Wednesday 30th of October 2013 04:50:36 PM

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Yes, I'm referring to both Narn and the Stone of the Hapless.

The summit of Porcupine Bank is 145 meters below sea level. This is from "Deep diving" at Wikipedia:

155 metres (509 ft) Record depth for scuba dive on compressed air (not officially recognised).[9]

Not finding anything decent on the net I went home and looked at my old Rand McNally Atlas. The high point in the Porcupine Bank is at about 53*+ North and 14* West. It is only 145 meters below sea level. Unlike Rockall it isn't a sharp peak but rather broad, so there's some leeway here.

fishvice.blogspot.com/2012_05_01_archive.html

Using the map at this site I estimated the position of Tol Morwen at 53* 00' N and 14* 30' W. The Encyclopedia of Arda isn't quite sure where it is:

The islands west of Lindon, including Tol Morwen (somewhat speculative)1

Notes

1

www.glyphweb.com/arda/t/tolmorwen.html

No final map exists of the isles beyond Himling. The map shown above is based on a rough sketch map reproduced in volume 7 of The History of Middle-earth, superimposed on the known geography of Beleriand during the First Age.

They seem to know where the Stone of the Hapless is but don't give any reason for why it should be at that location.

www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/stoneofthehapless.html

Found this while googling Porcupine Bank:

Some interesting tidbits that I picked up about Porcupine Bank:

It seems that the area surrounding Porcupine Bank has been an area of interest to Marine Biologists because of it's almost unnatural state of its coral reefs.

These are by far the most pristine, thriving and hence spectacular examples of cold-water coral reefs that Ive encountered in almost ten years of study in Irish waters." - Dr Anthony Grehan Link to Quote

"one of the last untapped reservoirs of potentially useful bio-compounds that might support the development of new anti-viral or anti-bacterial pharmaceuticals." - Dr Anthony Grehan Link to Quote

"In 1934 the trawler Muroto, working out of Cardiff, dredged up a 2nd century AD Roman pot while fishing on the Porcupine Bank 250km west of the west coast of Ireland', to this day noone is sure how it ended up in the middle of the bank. Link here

Not sure if this really adds anything actually......but it's interesting none the less.

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