Tolkien Forums

Thank you.
I think this might be be longest pedigree ever. The usual record holder is Confucius, born in 551 BC, who's descendents are now in the 83rd generation. This one goes back to 11,065 BC.

I've also have got a list for the Scandinavian kings, but it stops at Magnus the Good.

Just about anyone with a European bloodline can connect their family tree to someone on this list. I read somewhere that almost all English people, for instance, are descended from Edward III. If you can do that then you can create your own genealogy that goes back this far.

My dad's passion is family history. He's much like a Hobbit. I think he's traced his lineage back to the 1400s. It's all amazing and fad beyond me.

"I'm with you right up to Alfred the Great. Much beyond that and I can't see how the parents would be known with any accuracy?"

The kings before Alfred the Great come from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and the Prose Edda. These may or may not be mythical.
Following the Prose Edda's idea that these kings were descended from ancient Greek ones around the time of the Trojan War a few more generations are added.
The historian Josephus and others commonly supposed that the biblical Darda was the same as the Greek demi-god Dardanus. This allowed a connection all the way back to Adam, who time was around 4,000 BC, which is the same as Tolkien's estimate for the end of the Third Age. This may not have been coincidental. I posted this previously on another thread (tolkienforums.activeboard.com/t30876980/biblical-comparisons/):

I found this on the Grey Havens site:

From: Adam Quinan

The footnote in the first sentence of the last-quoted excerpt offers a fascinating insight:

(*) I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 283 (#211)]

Tolkien would have been aware of Archbishop Ussher's calculation of the date of Biblical Creation being the year 4004 BC. This is about 6000 years ago which matches Tolkien's imagined gap between the Fall of Barad-dur and our own days.

Although some modern Christian fundamentalists consider that Ussher's date is the actual date of Creation, Tolkien was not a fundamentalist and would not have believed that the date was literally true. He was, however, a faithful Roman Catholic and perhaps, consciously or subconsciously, he dated his literary creation to a time prior to the supposed date of the Biblical Creation. Therefore, the change in the Earth which altered geography from Middle Earth to Modern Earth may have been caused by the "Biblical Creation" which usshered (pun intended!) in Tolkien's own personal religious beliefs in place of his imagined ones.

tolkien.cro.net/mearth/aquinan.html


In any case, I can't think of any other mythological figure from the Western Tradition that could be dated to 6,000 years ago. So Adam and Eve (Evenstar?) it is.

Sir James, may I share what you did with my pop? He will be impressed for sure.

I was actually looking at the period between Adam(=Aragorn II)'s birth and Alfred the Great's (as suggested by Glorfindel) - seems there are 4941 years in-between and 77 generations, so it is more than 60 years per generation. But true, the longevity and the reproductive age could be much greater in the Eldarion's line, at least at the beginning.

I was making an assumption that the only source of exceptional longevity and a greater generation length was Numenorean descent. I would not average the generation length even within the First Age (there may have been a difference before and after Morgoth's influence on Men, according to the Athrabeth; Andreth refers to "...legends of days when death came less swiftly and [their] span was still far longer, but already there was death"); much less between the people of the F.A. and Numenor. It appears that in the Numenorean Kings's line the generation length was about 158 years before the darkening (Tar-Atanamir) and about 110 years after it; and in the line of the Lords of Andunie it was about 143 years. Even if in the line of Eldarion (Seth) there was for a while a reversion to the greater generation length seen in Numenor, anything well beyond that (like about 173 years in one of your examples) feels questionnable. Of course if there are other reasons for a greater life span and/or generation length, then nothing can be 'verified' this way.

I understand that there are at least two strong assumptions then.

(1) Aragorn and Arwen die but are reborn. So I originally thought that Adam being 90 "at creation" exactly corresponded to Aragorn's age at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and that was wrong... It is not clear though why someone who voluntarily died like Aragorn did would be reborn? Beren and Luthien were "reborn" but those two died prematurely, and their return was a very special case.

(2) Elven origin results in a longer life and a greater generation length. But Arwen chooses mortal life and should be considered mortal from the point of marriage. Is she an Elf or a mortal woman after rebirth? This may be disputable... The only similar example we have is again that of Luthien and Beren. They were mortal after their return and did not live too long for one thing. For another, although we don't know whether Dior their son was mortal or not (thanks to some Feanorians; but I would think he was mortal), notably his children were born when he was in his early 30s, which is a generation length typical for mortals. Actually a very similar generation length was in case of Earendil and Elwing (both half-elven).

My impression was also that half-elven did not have an intermediate lifespan, but had to make a choice as to whether to be with Elves or Men [this is incorrect; see the topic 'Dior Eluchil'. Other than Earendil, Elwing, and their sons, all mixed-bloods are mortal. They may have a longer life though]. Of course this is relevant if indeed Seth was half-elven, but there is essentially no proof.

One more thing is: where is the assumption that Elves live 144 times longer than men coming from? According to your own chronology, the Elves awoke around 75864 BC, and some of them may be still alive? Did you mean Elves that stayed in Middle Earth? Even then, any justification?

Aside from that, I looked at the years of birth that you added and either there are some typos or the people are not parent-offspring but are siblings or something else (e.g. ## 162, 163; 177, 178; 190, 191). I originally thought this was a direct parent-offspring line and not the line of the successors to the throne. I fully admit my ignorance concerning the English Royal line (and feel like a complete idiot), just thought that the topic was curious.

-- Edited by Lorelline on Tuesday 6th of August 2013 05:26:02 AM

-- Edited by Lorelline on Sunday 8th of September 2013 05:51:01 AM

"Even if in the line of Eldarion (Seth) there was for a while a reversion to the greater generation length seen in Numenor, anything well beyond that (like about 173 years in one of your examples) feels questionnable."
As it ought to be. I have erred. It was 25, not 15, generations between the start of Elessar's reign and Erichthonius'. 2,593/25=103.72. Thank goodness.

Well, you got me to analyze these figures much closer. Using linear extrapolation to approximate the unknown dates of the genealogy a very simple pattern appears. It can be seen in the modified table below.
Here is the average age at which their heirs were born.

(Adan) to (Amal): (8) generations averaging 39 years.
Marach to Earendil: 9 generations averaging 24.3 years.
Elros to Elatan: 5 generations averaging 139 years.
The Lords of Andunie: 18 generations averaging 138.3 years.
High Kings of Arnor: 10 generations averaging 104.8 years.
Kings of Arthedain: 15 generations averaging 80.8 years.
Chieftains of the Dunedain: 15 generations averaging 66.2 years.
Adam to Noah: 10 generations averaging 155.7 years.
Shem to Abraham: 10 generations averaging 55 years.
Isaac to Darda: 5 generations averaging about 90 years.
Erichthonius to Memnon: 6 generations averaging about 44.2 years.
Tror to Elesa: 32 generations averaging about 51.1 years.
Kings of Wessex: 15 generations averaging about 28 years.
Kings and Queens of England: 23 generations averaging 30.2 years.
Kings and Queens of Great Britain: 13 generations averaging 29.4 years.

1. (Adan) 11,064
2. (Atan) ~11,025
3. (Adar) ~10,986
4. (Adal) ~10,947
5. (Atar) ~10,908
6. (Atal) ~10,869
7. (Amar) ~10,830
8. (Amal) ~10,791
9. Marach 10,752
10. Malach 10,689

11. Magor 10,667
12. Hathol ~10,648
13. Hador ~10,629
14. Galdor 10,610
15. Huor ~10,591
16. Tuor ~10,572
17. Earendil ~10,553
18. Elros 10,533
19. (Elan) ~10,394
20. (Eland) ~10,255

21. (Eladan) ~10,116
22. Elatan ~9,977
23. Valandil 9,838
24. (Eldacar) 9,680
25. (Silmarion) 9,526
26. (Arantar) 9,364
27. (Siriondil) 9,205
28. (Valacar) 9,050
29. (Telumehtar) 8,901
30. (Anardil) 8,750

31. (Meneldil) 8,604
32. (Herendil) 8,466
33. (Axantur) 8,331
34. (Veandur) 8,200
35. (Ciryon) 8,074
36. (Ulmondil) 7,953
37. Earendur 7,838
38. (Valandur) 7,721
39. Numendil 7,610
40. Amandil 7,505

41. Elendil 7,349
42. Isildur 7,259
43. Valandil 7,038
44. Eldacar 6,940
45. Arantar 6,842
46. Tarcil 6,747
47. Tarondor 6,655
48. Valandur 6,565
49. Elendur 6,475
50. Earendur 6,387

51. Amlaith 6,301
52. Beleg 6,216
53. Mallor 6,132
54. Celepharn 6,048
55. Celebrindor 5,965
56. Malvegil 5,833
57. Argeleb I 5,801
58. Arveleg I 5,718
59. Araphor 5,636
60. Argeleb II 5,554

61. Arvegil 5,474
62. Arveleg II 5,394
63. Araval 5,316
64. Araphant 5,238
65. Arvedui 5,163
66. Aranarth 5,089
67. Arahael 5,025
68. Aranuir 4,943
69. Aravir 4,871
70. Aragorn I 4,800

71. Araglas 4,731
72. Arahad I 4,662
73. Aragost 4,596
74. Aravorn 4,530
75. Arahad II 4,464
76. Arassuil 4,399
77. Arathorn I 4,334
78. Argonui 4,270
79. Arador 4,207
80. Arathorn II 4,154

81. Adam 4,007
82. Seth 3,876
83. Enosh 3,771
84. Kenan 3,681
85. Mahalalel 3,611
86. Jared 3,546
87. Enoch 3,384
88. Methuselah 3,319
89. Lamech 3,132
90. Noah 2,950

91. Shem 2,450
92. Arpachshad 2,350
93. Shelah 2,315
94. Eber 2,285
95. Peleg 2,251
96. Reu 2,221
97. Serug 2,189
98. Nahor 2,159
99. Terah 2,130
100. Abram 2,000

101. Isaac 1,900
102. Jacob 1,840
103. Judah 1,760
104. Zerah ~1,725
105. Darda ~1,575
106. Erichthonius ~1,450
107. Tros ~1,400
108. Ilus ~1,350
109. Laomedon ~1,300
110. Tithonus ~1,250

111. Memnon ~1,200
112. Tror ~1,185
113. Loridi ~1,100
114. Einridi ~1,050
115. Vingethor ~1,000
116. Vingener ~950
117. Modi ~900
118. Magi ~850
119. Sceaf ~800
120. Bedwig ~750

121. Hwala ~700
122. Hratha ~650
123. Itermon ~600
124. Heremod ~550
125. Sceldwea ~500
126. Beaw ~450
127. Taetwa ~400
128. Geat ~350
129. Godwulf ~300
130. Finn ~250

131. Frithuwulf ~200
132. Frealaf ~150
133. Freawine ~100
134. Frithuwald ~50
135. Woden ~1
136. Baeldaeg ~51
137. Brond ~101
138. Frithogar ~151
139. Fraewine ~201
140. Wig ~251

141. Gewis ~301
142. Elsa ~351
143. Elesa ~401
144. Cercic ~451
145. Creopa ~473
146. Cynric 495
147. Ceawlin 535
148. Cuthwine ~564
149. Cuthwulf 592
150. Ceowald ~616

151. Cenred 640
152. Ingild ~673
153. Eoppa 706
154. Eaba 730
155. Ealhmund 750
156. Ecgert 775
157. Aethelwulf 795
158. Alfred the Great 847
159. Edward the Elder 871
160. Edmund I 921

161. Edgar the Peaceful 943
162. Aethelred 968
163. Edmund Ironside 989
164. Edward the Exile 1016
165. Margaret of Scotland 1045
166. Matilda of Scotland 1080
167. Matilda of England 1102
168. Henry II 1133
169. John 1167
170. Henry III 1207

171. Edward I 1239
172. Edward II 1284
173. Edward III 1312
174. John of Gaunt 1340
175. John Beafort (Earl) 1371
176. John Beafort (Duke) 1403
177. Margaret Beafort 1443
178. Henry VII 1457
179. Margaret Tudor 1489
180. James V 1512

181. Mary of Scotland 1542
182. James I 1566
183. Elizabeth Stuart 1596
184. Sophia of Hanover 1630
185. George I 1660
186. George II 1683
187. Frederick of Wales 1707
188. George III 1738
189. Edward of Kent 1767
190. Victoria 1819

191. Edward VII 1841
192. George V 1865
193. George VI 1895
194. Elizabeth II 1926
195. Charles 1948
196. William 1982 197. George 2013

"A few more questions. The gift of long life was given to Numenoreans because of the help of Edain in the War of Wrath. The same gift was given to Adam's descendants... What for? The Fall from Grace? Could this moment be a bit elaborated upon?"

For defeating Sauron? I'm not sure if I could elaborate upon it as well as others. I'm just a chronologist.

"I stumbled on the dates in Morgoth's Ring when looking for something else. Your are not too off with the estimate of the Elves' lifespan being 144 times longer than human's, turns out just above 17 thousand years..."

Do you know the chapter and page? It's been a while since I read it and I'd love to quote it.

"So 447 YT overall, or 9.58x447=~4282 Sun years."

Actually, I go by the simpler rule that a yen is 144 years of man. From Wikipedia:

In the 1930s and 40s Tolkien used a figure which fluctuated slightly around ten before settling on 9.582 solar years in each Valian year. However, in the 1950s Tolkien decided to use a much greater value of 144 solar years per Valian year, and included this figure in The Lord of the Rings appendices as the length of the elven year (the yen).

This has some advantages. In astrology a Great Day, which is the time it takes for the precession of the equinoxes to move by one degree, is 72 years. That's exactly half a yen. A Great Year is 360 Great Days, or exactly 180 yen.

1897 would then be the precise beginning of a Great Mid-year's Day. That's kind of interesting when looking at a biography of Tolkien. But it is also exactly 3 Great Years since the awakening of the Elves. 1500 YT-1050=450. 450+90=540. 540=3*180.

"But that would be just from the Elves' awakening to date. Someone as familiar with astronomy as you are might perhaps use the estimate of the time our planet is expected to last, from now until swallowed by the expanding Sun. Elves are supposed to live that long."

5.4 billion years in the future.

With the hydrogen supply exhausted at its core, the Sun leaves the main sequence and begins to evolve into a red giant.[46]

7.9 billion years in the future.

The Sun reaches the tip of the red giant branch, achieving its maximum radius of 256 times the present day value.[46] In the process, Mercury, Venus and possibly Earth are destroyed.[47]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

"I see a difference in how you and I compute the generation length. You seem to divide by the number of individuals (e.g. Adan to Amal, 8 overall) and I divide by the number of intervals, which is one less. We are looking at the intervals I think. But the difference in most cases is immaterial. I noticed it for the Lords of Andunie."

You should do it by the number of individuals. To see what I mean try figuring out the average interval if only two individuals are involved.

"Any reason for fluctuations in the generation length (after Adam I mean)? According to what you present it goes up (even to 90) and down. (I suspect the reasons may be obvious, but not to me.). I would not say that this constitutes a very simple pattern but maybe on a graph it would be clear. Not that you have to make it of course."

Look at the number of generations.

"A reward for defeating Sauron would apply to Eldarion's line, but Seth is not him and is born after the Fall from Grace?"

That seems right.

The usual routine in Adam and Eve like stories in other traditions is that they were offered immortality but chose a mortal life so that they could have children. I'm not sure how that would apply here, if at all.

"The generation length is the time interval between the child's date of birth and the parent's DOB (unless we are averaging between both parents).

I am averaging the length between generations. If we know the child's date of birth and the parent's DOB we have enough information for an average, if you can call the averaging of only one generation length an average.
Example:

1. Great Grandpa b. 1900
2. Grandpa b. 1925
3. Pop b. 1950
4. Junior b. 1975

The average generation length is obviously 25 years.

"You seem to divide by the number of individuals (e.g. Adan to Amal, 8 overall) and I divide by the number of intervals, which is one less."

To compute the average generation length of the three individuals from Great Grandpa to Pop I would take the year of Junior's birth and subtract from that the year of Great Grandpa's birth (1975-1900=75). Then I would divide by the number of individuals from Great Grandpa to Pop (3) and arrive at 25.

I guess I don't know the proper terminology. What I was computing is the average age at which a particular group of people had an heir. I don't know what the exact word for that is. The 18 Lords of Andunie, for instance, had an heir at the age 138.3, on average. The only way to know this is to factor in the DOB of the first person who wasn't a Lord.

Have you ever noticed that in many ancient kings lists that they often come in groups of round numbers like 5 or 10? Tolkien, I'm assuming, continued this tradition.

Yes, I noticed quite a few multiples of 5. Just wasn't sure of a pattern. I eventually put the numbers up on a graph and in the process noticed that the number of generations does not add up to 196. I got 194 using what you called a table. Were some people or intervals omitted or is there some overlap so they should not be expected to add up? Maybe this is not at all important, but maybe in fact there should be more multiples of 5, clarifying the pattern?
I was always silently wondering why the British line got this special treatment, but was hesitant to ask. Now the Scandinavian/Danish line appears... May I ask a stupid question: are Yngvi and Baeldaeg known or inferred siblings? And another question, I am just curious - are both these lines known for exceptional longevity (if you know)?

Looking in HoMe Vol.V for something else yet again, I realized that what Tolkien was planning to write in The Lost Road has a certain similarity to your reconstruction of the ancestries. Of course it was conceived and partly written (and then abandoned) before the LOTR and none of the Third Age characters are there. Nor it is clearly said that those re-occurring father-son pairs ('Bliss-friend' and 'Elf-friend', reappearing in human families like Durin among the Dwarves) were all in a direct line - maybe they were if indeed Durin was also reborn within his line of offspring. Anyway, those father-son pairs were supposed to appear in the story (in a backwards manner) from the 20th century all the way to Numenor. In between there should have been
Lombard story
A Norse story of ship-burial
An English story
A Tuatha-de-Danaan story (Tir-nan-Og)
'Painted caves'
Prehistoric North - kings found buried in the ice
Beleriand (at that time it was not supposed to have sunk completely)
Elendil and Gil-galad story of the assault on Thu
The Numenor story
And the North Sea traditions of the coming of ancestors of kingly lines in boats were mentioned as a part of the Norse story - and "Sheaf ... can actually be made out as one of the remote ancestors of the present Queen". You probably have seen this all already.
Not being very familiar with all these (the historic and other-than-Tolkien legend parts) I am wondering if there is indeed any parallel with what you came up with?

I see. Originally I was skeptical about all this... But from the beginning I was also thinking whether genetic methods could be applied here to check some assumptions or conclusions - if there any relations that don't follow directly from the already known genealogies. The relatedness will be probably very weak but if the pedigrees are known there might be ways of looking into that (so the mention of pedigrees in my first post in this thread was not only a joke). But that is an enormous task!
On another note I wonder if one should look for the longevity polymorphisms in these lines...

This is a slight exaggeration, pretty appealing by the way since it implies virtual immortality (of those interested), and I agree to wait.

But that's not what I meant even in that original post. I just need to learn how to express myself clearly.

Maybe an example would help. It follows from your reconstruction that Prince George and Princess (?) Ingrid are distant relatives. Their relatedness is quite weak if it is based on that line only, and wouldn't be expected to be noticeably greater than the background relatedness of say Northern Europeans. Yet if both had descended not from Woden (male) but from a female and both through a female line, their relatedness would have been easy to observe (without even knowing their ancestry). However, since their origin is known anyway, why bother to try to confirm it. If, on the other hand, there were individuals that, according to your reconstruction, hypothetically could be (distant) relatives and you wanted to find independent evidence, in some special cases this might be possible. All-male or all-female lines (in the latter case the currently living ones being compared could be of either gender) are helpful for this purpose - if such lines are known or can be proposed.

If there is any chance that Numenorean (or Elven even better) 'genetic material' is still present in the existing populations, it becomes tempting to drop everything and start looking for it - one just needs to know where to look.

I must acknowledge my ignorance once more - I have never watched Star Wars (not a movie person) and had no idea they did something with mtDNA or with Y.
But even Star Wars don't invalidate the approach if it is applicable. Maybe not in this case (or not very helpful). How indeed a mortal/immortal switch operated is most curious. How did Tuor become immortal and Luthien mortal (let alone the half-Elven on whom I am hoping to post in another thread, as it is off this topic)? We are not given much detail on that. Whether it was biological or spiritual we simply don't know.

Mystical things should be left mystical... maybe, and some understand that and leave them alone, and others just would not be able to put them out of thought. Not everything can be measured, and a microscope or genotyping or the like will not always help - still, much can be deduced from indirect evidence, like those archetypes. Indeed spiritual qualities may be biological. I liked this post of yours a lot, except that the last sentence is very troubling and it is also recurrent. Hope this is just the figure of speech though.

Now I got it. I agree - evolution never stops of course, it is still happening, even in the modern societies in 'civilized' countries (not only through survival).
Third Age... a shaky ground (not as bad as the real history, but still...). The corruption of the world when Sauron came back for the last time didn't go as far as it did in Numenor. Could the War of the Ring have been prevented? Yes, if Elrond had succeeded in persuading Isildur (his relative to a trivial degree) to cast the ring in the fire of Mt Doom. But that's probably not what you meant. Was an "early detection and intervention" (sorry for the jargon) possible? I am afraid not once Saruman got corrupted. And could that have been prevented or noticed timely? Gandalf was ever on his guard but arguing with Saruman was difficult.

I would say that people (meaning humans) are, in general, not predisposed to spontaneous heroic deeds - such deeds are mostly done out of necessity, and to me it seems much better when these deeds are not needed. I may not be getting you right, but are you saying that since people tend to get corrupted during peaceful times, such times are not good for them? Hope you don't mean that wars and catastrophes are what we need and not the quiet times? I am asking because I have heard the opinion that quiet times don't provide the opportunity to express one's heroic nature, and are therefore boring, and my view is totally opposite (and unpopular).
That people do deny their flaws even to themselves is very true - self-understanding can be viewed as a heroic deed, because it is very much against human nature. It seems to me though that those flaws are denied not just when the denial helps get something; they are denied almost always. And sure, better self-understanding would make self-improvement necessary and corruption less likely.
It is only natural to start with the most direct approach to solve a problem. In the case of Numenoreans, their problem simply had no solution, they wanted more than a longer life. So indeed they got the opposite - all perished. Isn't it interesting though that Elrond's children were still given a choice but not those of Elros.