Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
 

Topic: Ancestry of Prince George?

Post Info
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Jul 27, 2013
Ancestry of Prince George?

 

Here is a list of the possible ancestors of Prince George Louis Alexander of Cambridge. The parantheses indicate fictional names (other than Tolkien).

 

1. (Adan)
2. (Atan)
3. (Adar)
4. (Adal)
5. (Atar)
6. (Atal)
7. (Amar)
8. (Amal)
9. Marach
10. Malach

11. Magor
12. Hathol
13. Hador
14. Galdor
15. Huor
16. Tuor
17. Earendil
18. Elros
19. (Elan)
20. (Eland)

21. (Eladan)
22. Elatan
23. Valandil
24. (Eldacar)
25. (Silmarion)
26. (Arantar)
27. (Siriondil)
28. (Valacar)
29. (Telumehtar)
30. (Anardil)

31. (Meneldil)
32. (Herendil)
33. (Axantur)
34. (Veandur)
35. (Ciryon)
36. (Ulmondil)
37. Earendur
38. (Valandur)
39. Numendil
40. Amandil

41. Elendil
42. Isildur
43. Valandil
44. Eldacar
45. Arantar
46. Tarcil
47. Tarondor
48. Valandur
49. Elendur
50. Earendur

51. Amlaith
52. Beleg
53. Mallor
54. Celepharn
55. Celebrindor
56. Malvegil
57. Argeleb I
58. Arveleg I
59. Araphor
60. Argeleb II

61. Arvegil
62. Arveleg II
63. Araval
64. Araphant
65. Arvedui
66. Aranarth
67. Arahael
68. Aranuir
69. Aravir
70. Aragorn I

71. Araglas
72. Arahad I
73. Aragost
74. Aravorn
75. Arahad II
76. Arassuil
77. Arathorn I
78. Argonui
79. Arador
80. Arathorn II

81. Adam
82. Seth
83. Enosh
84. Kenan
85. Mahalalel
86. Jared
87. Enoch
88. Methuselah
89. Lamech
90. Noah

91. Shem
92. Arpachshad
93. Shelah
94. Eber
95. Peleg
96. Reu
97. Serug
98. Nahor
99. Terah
100. Abram

101. Isaac
102. Jacob
103. Judah
104. Zerah
105. Darda
106. Erichthonius
107. Tros
108. Ilus
109. Laomedon
110. Tithonus

111. Memnon
112. Tror
113. Loridi
114. Einridi
115. Vingethor
116. Vingener
117. Modi
118. Magi
119. Sceaf
120. Bedwig

121. Hwala
122. Hratha
123. Itermon
124. Heremod
125. Sceldwea
126. Beaw
127. Taetwa
128. Geat
129. Godwulf
130. Finn

131. Frithuwulf
132. Frealaf
133. Freawine
134. Frithuwald
135. Woden
136. Baeldaeg
137. Brond
138. Frithogar
139. Fraewine
140. Wig

141. Gewis
142. Elsa
143. Elesa
144. Cercic
145. Creopa
146. Cynric
147. Ceawlin
148. Cuthwine
149. Cuthwulf
150. Ceowald

151. Cenred
152. Ingild
153. Eoppa
154. Eaba
155. Ealhmund
156. Ecgert
157. Aethelwulf
158. Alfred the Great
159. Edward the Elder
160. Edmund I

161. Edgar the Peaceful
162. Aethelred
163. Edmund Ironside
164. Edward the Exile
165. St. Margaret of Scotland
166. Matilda of Scotland
167. Matilda of England
168. Henry II
169. John
170. Henry III

171. Edward I
172. Edward II
173. Edward III
174. John of Gaunt
175. John Beafort (Earl)
176. John Beafort (Duke)
177. Margaret Beafort
178. Henry VII
179. Margaret Tudor
180. James V

181. Mary of Scotland
182. James I
183. Elizabeth Stuart
184. Sophia of Hanover
185. George I
186. George II
187. Frederick of Wales
188. George III
189. Edward of Kent
190. Victoria

191. Edward VII
192. George V
193. George VI
194. Elizabeth II
195. Charles
196. William                                                                                                                                                                                            197. George


http://3rings.webs.com/

 

http://sdgeard.customer.netspace.net.au/andun01.html



-- Edited by James the Just on Saturday 27th of July 2013 10:52:09 PM

__________________
Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 812
Date: Jul 29, 2013
That is awesome! Nice work yet again.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Jul 29, 2013
Thank you.
I think this might be be longest pedigree ever. The usual record holder is Confucius, born in 551 BC, who's descendents are now in the 83rd generation. This one goes back to 11,065 BC.

I've also have got a list for the Scandinavian kings, but it stops at Magnus the Good.

Just about anyone with a European bloodline can connect their family tree to someone on this list. I read somewhere that almost all English people, for instance, are descended from Edward III. If you can do that then you can create your own genealogy that goes back this far.

__________________
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Jul 30, 2013
I'm with you right up to Alfred the Great. Much beyond that and I can't see how the parents would be known with any accuracy?

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 812
Date: Jul 30, 2013
My dad's passion is family history. He's much like a Hobbit. I think he's traced his lineage back to the 1400s. It's all amazing and fad beyond me.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 1, 2013

Very interesting. However, we (I at least) are left in the dark concerning the remaining 2197- 197 ancestors... Ok, there cannot be that many, they overlap a lot and that is how all the relatedness comes about. All the more interesting to see the pedigrees, is that coming next?

Also, is this roughly consistent with the date conversion from Middle-earth chronology to ours you proposed earlier (General Lore; Middle-earth chronology)? I tried to see for myself and what I got did not seem 'realistic' in terms of the generation length; but perhaps I was doing it all wrong.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Thursday 1st of August 2013 05:39:23 AM



-- Edited by Lorelline on Friday 2nd of August 2013 09:11:52 PM

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 2, 2013
"I'm with you right up to Alfred the Great. Much beyond that and I can't see how the parents would be known with any accuracy?"

The kings before Alfred the Great come from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and the Prose Edda. These may or may not be mythical.
Following the Prose Edda's idea that these kings were descended from ancient Greek ones around the time of the Trojan War a few more generations are added.
The historian Josephus and others commonly supposed that the biblical Darda was the same as the Greek demi-god Dardanus. This allowed a connection all the way back to Adam, who time was around 4,000 BC, which is the same as Tolkien's estimate for the end of the Third Age. This may not have been coincidental. I posted this previously on another thread (tolkienforums.activeboard.com/t30876980/biblical-comparisons/):

I found this on the Grey Havens site:

From: Adam Quinan

The footnote in the first sentence of the last-quoted excerpt offers a fascinating insight:

(*) I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 283 (#211)]

Tolkien would have been aware of Archbishop Ussher's calculation of the date of Biblical Creation being the year 4004 BC. This is about 6000 years ago which matches Tolkien's imagined gap between the Fall of Barad-dur and our own days.

Although some modern Christian fundamentalists consider that Ussher's date is the actual date of Creation, Tolkien was not a fundamentalist and would not have believed that the date was literally true. He was, however, a faithful Roman Catholic and perhaps, consciously or subconsciously, he dated his literary creation to a time prior to the supposed date of the Biblical Creation. Therefore, the change in the Earth which altered geography from Middle Earth to Modern Earth may have been caused by the "Biblical Creation" which usshered (pun intended!) in Tolkien's own personal religious beliefs in place of his imagined ones.

tolkien.cro.net/mearth/aquinan.html


In any case, I can't think of any other mythological figure from the Western Tradition that could be dated to 6,000 years ago. So Adam and Eve (Evenstar?) it is.



__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 2, 2013
"Also, is this roughly consistent with the date conversion from Middle-earth chronology to ours you proposed earlier (General Lore; Middle-earth chronology)? I tried to see for myself and what I got did not seem 'realistic' in terms of the generation length; but perhaps I was doing it all wrong."

From Memnon (#111) to Alfred the Great (#158) there are 48 generations. The Trojan War was around 1184 BC and King Alfred died in 899 AD. That's less than 45 years per generation so it's not too bad. It's the long lives of the biblical patriarchs that really adds up.

__________________
Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 812
Date: Aug 2, 2013
Sir James, may I share what you did with my pop? He will be impressed for sure.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 2, 2013
Of course. It's for everyone.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 2, 2013
I was actually looking at the period between Adam(=Aragorn II)'s birth and Alfred the Great's (as suggested by Glorfindel) - seems there are 4941 years in-between and 77 generations, so it is more than 60 years per generation. But true, the longevity and the reproductive age could be much greater in the Eldarion's line, at least at the beginning.

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 3, 2013
Let's see. From the birth (or wakening or creation?) of (Adan) to the birth of Elendil there passed 3,715 years and 40 generations. 3,715/40=92.875 years per generation. From him until the birth of Aragorn II was 3,253 years and another 40 generations. 3,253/40=81.325. If we assume that the years are the same in Anno Mundi and the Fourth Age then the age of Adam (Eldamir?) was actually 90 when he was 'created.' It is not known when Erichthonius was born, but according to Jerome he began his reign in 1,415 BC; 2,593 years after the start of Elessar's and 15 generations later. 2,593/15=172.867. Achilles kills Memnon in 1182 BC; 5 generations and 233 years later. 233/5=46.6. Cercic reigned in 519 AD; 1,700 years and 33 generations after. 1,700/33=51.515. And, finally, Queen Elizabeth II was coronated in 1953; only 4 days after Everest was conquered, which itself occurred 500 years to the day after the Fall of Constantinople, and thus ended the Medieval period. This was 1,434 years and 50 generations later. 1,434/50=28.68.


__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 4, 2013
I was making an assumption that the only source of exceptional longevity and a greater generation length was Numenorean descent. I would not average the generation length even within the First Age (there may have been a difference before and after Morgoth's influence on Men, according to the Athrabeth; Andreth refers to "...legends of days when death came less swiftly and [their] span was still far longer, but already there was death"); much less between the people of the F.A. and Numenor. It appears that in the Numenorean Kings's line the generation length was about 158 years before the darkening (Tar-Atanamir) and about 110 years after it; and in the line of the Lords of Andunie it was about 143 years. Even if in the line of Eldarion (Seth) there was for a while a reversion to the greater generation length seen in Numenor, anything well beyond that (like about 173 years in one of your examples) feels questionnable. Of course if there are other reasons for a greater life span and/or generation length, then nothing can be 'verified' this way.

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 5, 2013
I would cerainly agree with you that Numenorean descent would greatly enhance lifespan, but that wouldn't be the only thing. Being the children of an Elf, in this case Arwen, could do it. The bloodlines may have been kept relatively pure by keeping it 'within the family', as the old gods and kings were known to do.

If Elves live a dozen dozen (144) times as long as Men, then it may be reasonable to suppose that Half Elves may live for a dozen times as long; which is the life span of the biblical patriarchs.

Seth would not be Eldarion, however. Seth was born when Adam was 130 years old. If Adam was Aragorn then the birth would have happened in the year 131 of the Fourth Age; about 10 years after King Elessar's passing. Perhaps he and his wife were 'reborn' somehow and travelled to the East, becoming the 'first man and woman' and rulers of a 'Second People', or Edain, in Eden. Unlike the all the other characters, Adam and Eve were not born as children, but, rather, were full grown adults at their 'creation.'

I worked out the years when people in the list would have been born. The years are in BC until the time of the English kings, at which it becomes AD, of course.

1. (Adan) 11,064?
2. (Atan) 11,025?
3. (Adar) 10,986?
4. (Adal) 10,947?
5. (Atar) 10,908?
6. (Atal) 10,869?
7. (Amar) 10,830?
8. (Amal) 10,791?
9. Marach 10,752
10. Malach 10,689

11. Magor 10,667
12. Hathol 10,648?
13. Hador 10,629?
14. Galdor 10,610
15. Huor 10,591?
16. Tuor 10,572?
17. Earendil 10,553?
18. Elros 10,533
19. (Elan) 10,394?
20. (Eland) 10,255?

21. (Eladan) 10,116?
22. Elatan 9,977?
23. Valandil 9,838
24. (Eldacar) 9,680
25. (Silmarion) 9,526
26. (Arantar) 9,364
27. (Siriondil) 9,205
28. (Valacar) 9,050
29. (Telumehtar) 8,901
30. (Anardil) 8,750

31. (Meneldil) 8,604
32. (Herendil) 8,466
33. (Axantur) 8,331
34. (Veandur) 8,200
35. (Ciryon) 8,074
36. (Ulmondil) 7,953
37. Earendur 7,838
38. (Valandur) 7,721
39. Numendil 7,610
40. Amandil 7,505

41. Elendil 7,349
42. Isildur 7,259
43. Valandil 7,038
44. Eldacar 6,940
45. Arantar 6,842
46. Tarcil 6,747
47. Tarondor 6,655
48. Valandur 6,565
49. Elendur 6,475
50. Earendur 6,387

51. Amlaith 6,301
52. Beleg 6,216
53. Mallor 6,132
54. Celepharn 6,048
55. Celebrindor 5,965
56. Malvegil 5,833
57. Argeleb I 5,801
58. Arveleg I 5,718
59. Araphor 5,636
60. Argeleb II 5,554

61. Arvegil 5,474
62. Arveleg II 5,394
63. Araval 5,316
64. Araphant 5,238
65. Arvedui 5,163
66. Aranarth 5,089
67. Arahael 5,025
68. Aranuir 4,943
69. Aravir 4,871
70. Aragorn I 4,800

71. Araglas 4,731
72. Arahad I 4,662
73. Aragost 4,596
74. Aravorn 4,530
75. Arahad II 4,464
76. Arassuil 4,399
77. Arathorn I 4,334
78. Argonui 4,270
79. Arador 4,207
80. Arathorn II 4,154

81. Adam 4,007
82. Seth 3,876
83. Enosh 3,771
84. Kenan 3,681
85. Mahalalel 3,611
86. Jared 3,546
87. Enoch 3,384
88. Methuselah 3,319
89. Lamech 3,132
90. Noah 2,950

91. Shem 2,450
92. Arpachshad 2,350
93. Shelah 2,315
94. Eber 2,285
95. Peleg 2,251
96. Reu 2,221
97. Serug 2,189
98. Nahor 2,159
99. Terah 2,130
100. Abram 2,000

101. Isaac 1,900
102. Jacob 1,840
103. Judah 1,760
104. Zerah
105. Darda
106. Erichthonius
107. Tros
108. Ilus
109. Laomedon
110. Tithonus

111. Memnon
112. Tror
113. Loridi
114. Einridi
115. Vingethor
116. Vingener
117. Modi
118. Magi
119. Sceaf
120. Bedwig

121. Hwala
122. Hratha
123. Itermon
124. Heremod
125. Sceldwea
126. Beaw
127. Taetwa
128. Geat
129. Godwulf
130. Finn

131. Frithuwulf
132. Frealaf
133. Freawine
134. Frithuwald
135. Woden
136. Baeldaeg
137. Brond
138. Frithogar
139. Fraewine
140. Wig

141. Gewis
142. Elsa
143. Elesa
144. Cercic -
145. Creopa -
146. Cynric 495
147. Ceawlin 535
148. Cuthwine -
149. Cuthwulf 592
150. Ceowald -

151. Cenred 640
152. Ingild -
153. Eoppa 706
154. Eaba 730
155. Ealhmund 750
156. Ecgert 775
157. Aethelwulf 795
158. Alfred the Great 847
159. Edward the Elder 871
160. Edmund I 921

161. Edgar the Peaceful 943
162. Aethelred 978
163. Edmund Ironside 989
164. Edward the Exile 1016
165. Margaret of Scotland 1045
166. Matilda of Scotland 1080
167. Matilda of England 1102
168. Henry II 1133
169. John 1167
170. Henry III 1207

171. Edward I 1239
172. Edward II 1284
173. Edward III 1312
174. John of Gaunt 1340
175. John Beafort (Earl) 1371
176. John Beafort (Duke) 1403
177. Margaret Beafort 1443
178. Henry VII 1457
179. Margaret Tudor 1489
180. James V 1512

181. Mary of Scotland 1542
182. James I 1566
183. Elizabeth Stuart 1596
184. Sophia of Hanover 1630
185. George I 1660
186. George II 1683
187. Frederick of Wales 1707
188. George III 1738
189. Edward of Kent 1767
190. Victoria 1840

191. Edward VII 1841
192. George V 1865
193. George VI 1895
194. Elizabeth II 1926
195. Charles 1948
196. William 1982 197. George 2013


__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 6, 2013

I understand that there are at least two strong assumptions then.

(1) Aragorn and Arwen die but are reborn. So I originally thought that Adam being 90 "at creation" exactly corresponded to Aragorn's age at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and that was wrong... It is not clear though why someone who voluntarily died like Aragorn did would be reborn? Beren and Luthien were "reborn" but those two died prematurely, and their return was a very special case.

(2) Elven origin results in a longer life and a greater generation length. But Arwen chooses mortal life and should be considered mortal from the point of marriage. Is she an Elf or a mortal woman after rebirth? This may be disputable... The only similar example we have is again that of Luthien and Beren. They were mortal after their return and did not live too long for one thing. For another, although we don't know whether Dior their son was mortal or not (thanks to some Feanorians; but I would think he was mortal), notably his children were born when he was in his early 30s, which is a generation length typical for mortals. Actually a very similar generation length was in case of Earendil and Elwing (both half-elven).

My impression was also that half-elven did not have an intermediate lifespan, but had to make a choice as to whether to be with Elves or Men [this is incorrect; see the topic 'Dior Eluchil'. Other than Earendil, Elwing, and their sons, all mixed-bloods are mortal. They may have a longer life though]. Of course this is relevant if indeed Seth was half-elven, but there is essentially no proof.

One more thing is: where is the assumption that Elves live 144 times longer than men coming from? According to your own chronology, the Elves awoke around 75864 BC, and some of them may be still alive? Did you mean Elves that stayed in Middle Earth? Even then, any justification?

Aside from that, I looked at the years of birth that you added and either there are some typos or the people are not parent-offspring but are siblings or something else (e.g. ## 162, 163; 177, 178; 190, 191). I originally thought this was a direct parent-offspring line and not the line of the successors to the throne. I fully admit my ignorance concerning the English Royal line (and feel like a complete idiot), just thought that the topic was curious.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Tuesday 6th of August 2013 05:26:02 AM



-- Edited by Lorelline on Sunday 8th of September 2013 05:51:01 AM

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 6, 2013
"(1) Aragorn and Arwen die but are reborn. So I originally thought that Adam being 90 "at creation" exactly corresponded to Aragorn's age at the beginning of the Fourth Age, and that was wrong... It is not clear though why someone who voluntarily died like Aragorn did would be reborn? Beren and Luthien were "reborn" but those two died prematurely, and their return was a very special case."

You weren't wrong. Aragorn was 90 at the beginning of the Fourth Age (or Anno Mundi 1) and if he were Adam then he was actually 90 at the start. However, the years of Adam may have been counted from the start of Anno Mundi, which is the same as the years of the Fourth age. This explains why he began as a full grown man instead of a child. The Fall from Grace may represent the change from the Silver Age (Third) to the Bronze Age (Fourth). An end to a more idyllic time, as it were.
So Adam would have been 90+130=220 years old when Seth was born. He lived for another 800 years for a total of 1,020, but this would have been recorded as 930.
Beren and Luthien were a very special case, indeed. Maybe this was even more unique, considering the great transformation that occurred in the world.

"2) Elven origin results in a longer life and a greater generation length. But Arwen chooses mortal life and should be considered mortal from the point of marriage. Is she an Elf or a mortal woman after rebirth? This may be disputable... The only similar example we have is again that of Luthien and Beren. They were mortal after their return and did not live too long for one thing. For another, although we don't know whether Dior their son was mortal or not (thanks to some Feanorians; but I would think he was mortal), notably his children were born when he was in his early 30s, which is a generation length typical for mortals. Actually a very similar generation length was in case of Earendil and Elwing (both half-elven).

My impression was also that half-elven did not have an intermediate lifespan, but had to make a choice as to whether to be with Elves or Men. Of course this is relevant if indeed Seth was half-elven, but there is essentially no proof."

Of course there cannot be. It's all highly speculative, to say the least. Perhaps Seth and his heirs weren't forced to make a choice, as before. They might have simply passed on their Half Elvish blood normally.
Nothing can be known for certain. This is an attempt to connect the genealogy of the Lord of the Rings with that found in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which traces the lineage of the Kings of England all the way back to the beginning of time. Since Aragorn and Evenstar lived at the same time, 6,000 years ago according to Tolkien, as Adam and Eve, it only seemed a natural fit.
Some rationalizations and a bit of twisting of logic might be involved but it seems to work out pretty good. The biblical story and Tolkien's don't need to clash or contradict one another if they're done separately; the events described in Genesis could have happened outside the scope of what was written in the Appendix and vice-versa.

"One more thing is: where is the assumption that Elves live 144 times longer than men coming from? According to your own chronology, the Elves awoke around 75864 BC, and some of them may be still alive? Did you mean Elves that stayed in Middle Earth? Even then, any justification?"

It seemed to follow from what was written in Morgoth's Ring, but I can't remember the quotes. If any Elves are still alive they would be very old. The 91st yen since the start of the Age of the Sun, which is at the halfway point of of Great Year of 180 yen, occurred in 1897; when Tolkien was a young child living at Sarehole.

"Aside from that, I looked at the years of birth that you added and either there are some typos or the people are not parent-offspring but are siblings or something else (e.g. ## 162, 163; 177, 178; 190, 191). I originally thought this was a direct parent-offspring line and not the line of the successors to the throne."

Again, you were not wrong. It is a direct parent-offspring line. You're also right about the typos. I wasn't ready, I guess, when I typed 978, instead of 968, for the year of Aethelred the Unready's birth. And how I made the mistake of giving 1840 as the year of Queen Victoria's birth, I'll never know. I don't imagine she conceived at the time of her birth. My excuse is that I typed the dates up rather quickly so as not to delay a response.
I did get #177 and #178 right, though. From Wikipedia:

Margaret was 12 when she married 24-year old Edmund Tudor on 1 November 1455. The Wars of the Roses had just broken out; Edmund, a Lancastrian, was taken prisoner by Yorkist forces less than a year later. He died of the plague in captivity at Carmarthen the following November, leaving a 13-year-old widow who was seven months pregnant with their child.

I'll post some corrections and additions soon.



__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 6, 2013
"Even if in the line of Eldarion (Seth) there was for a while a reversion to the greater generation length seen in Numenor, anything well beyond that (like about 173 years in one of your examples) feels questionnable."
As it ought to be. I have erred. It was 25, not 15, generations between the start of Elessar's reign and Erichthonius'. 2,593/25=103.72. Thank goodness.

Well, you got me to analyze these figures much closer. Using linear extrapolation to approximate the unknown dates of the genealogy a very simple pattern appears. It can be seen in the modified table below.
Here is the average age at which their heirs were born.

(Adan) to (Amal): (8) generations averaging 39 years.
Marach to Earendil: 9 generations averaging 24.3 years.
Elros to Elatan: 5 generations averaging 139 years.
The Lords of Andunie: 18 generations averaging 138.3 years.
High Kings of Arnor: 10 generations averaging 104.8 years.
Kings of Arthedain: 15 generations averaging 80.8 years.
Chieftains of the Dunedain: 15 generations averaging 66.2 years.
Adam to Noah: 10 generations averaging 155.7 years.
Shem to Abraham: 10 generations averaging 55 years.
Isaac to Darda: 5 generations averaging about 90 years.
Erichthonius to Memnon: 6 generations averaging about 44.2 years.
Tror to Elesa: 32 generations averaging about 51.1 years.
Kings of Wessex: 15 generations averaging about 28 years.
Kings and Queens of England: 23 generations averaging 30.2 years.
Kings and Queens of Great Britain: 13 generations averaging 29.4 years.

1. (Adan) 11,064
2. (Atan) ~11,025
3. (Adar) ~10,986
4. (Adal) ~10,947
5. (Atar) ~10,908
6. (Atal) ~10,869
7. (Amar) ~10,830
8. (Amal) ~10,791
9. Marach 10,752
10. Malach 10,689

11. Magor 10,667
12. Hathol ~10,648
13. Hador ~10,629
14. Galdor 10,610
15. Huor ~10,591
16. Tuor ~10,572
17. Earendil ~10,553
18. Elros 10,533
19. (Elan) ~10,394
20. (Eland) ~10,255

21. (Eladan) ~10,116
22. Elatan ~9,977
23. Valandil 9,838
24. (Eldacar) 9,680
25. (Silmarion) 9,526
26. (Arantar) 9,364
27. (Siriondil) 9,205
28. (Valacar) 9,050
29. (Telumehtar) 8,901
30. (Anardil) 8,750

31. (Meneldil) 8,604
32. (Herendil) 8,466
33. (Axantur) 8,331
34. (Veandur) 8,200
35. (Ciryon) 8,074
36. (Ulmondil) 7,953
37. Earendur 7,838
38. (Valandur) 7,721
39. Numendil 7,610
40. Amandil 7,505

41. Elendil 7,349
42. Isildur 7,259
43. Valandil 7,038
44. Eldacar 6,940
45. Arantar 6,842
46. Tarcil 6,747
47. Tarondor 6,655
48. Valandur 6,565
49. Elendur 6,475
50. Earendur 6,387

51. Amlaith 6,301
52. Beleg 6,216
53. Mallor 6,132
54. Celepharn 6,048
55. Celebrindor 5,965
56. Malvegil 5,833
57. Argeleb I 5,801
58. Arveleg I 5,718
59. Araphor 5,636
60. Argeleb II 5,554

61. Arvegil 5,474
62. Arveleg II 5,394
63. Araval 5,316
64. Araphant 5,238
65. Arvedui 5,163
66. Aranarth 5,089
67. Arahael 5,025
68. Aranuir 4,943
69. Aravir 4,871
70. Aragorn I 4,800

71. Araglas 4,731
72. Arahad I 4,662
73. Aragost 4,596
74. Aravorn 4,530
75. Arahad II 4,464
76. Arassuil 4,399
77. Arathorn I 4,334
78. Argonui 4,270
79. Arador 4,207
80. Arathorn II 4,154

81. Adam 4,007
82. Seth 3,876
83. Enosh 3,771
84. Kenan 3,681
85. Mahalalel 3,611
86. Jared 3,546
87. Enoch 3,384
88. Methuselah 3,319
89. Lamech 3,132
90. Noah 2,950

91. Shem 2,450
92. Arpachshad 2,350
93. Shelah 2,315
94. Eber 2,285
95. Peleg 2,251
96. Reu 2,221
97. Serug 2,189
98. Nahor 2,159
99. Terah 2,130
100. Abram 2,000

101. Isaac 1,900
102. Jacob 1,840
103. Judah 1,760
104. Zerah ~1,725
105. Darda ~1,575
106. Erichthonius ~1,450
107. Tros ~1,400
108. Ilus ~1,350
109. Laomedon ~1,300
110. Tithonus ~1,250

111. Memnon ~1,200
112. Tror ~1,185
113. Loridi ~1,100
114. Einridi ~1,050
115. Vingethor ~1,000
116. Vingener ~950
117. Modi ~900
118. Magi ~850
119. Sceaf ~800
120. Bedwig ~750

121. Hwala ~700
122. Hratha ~650
123. Itermon ~600
124. Heremod ~550
125. Sceldwea ~500
126. Beaw ~450
127. Taetwa ~400
128. Geat ~350
129. Godwulf ~300
130. Finn ~250

131. Frithuwulf ~200
132. Frealaf ~150
133. Freawine ~100
134. Frithuwald ~50
135. Woden ~1
136. Baeldaeg ~51
137. Brond ~101
138. Frithogar ~151
139. Fraewine ~201
140. Wig ~251

141. Gewis ~301
142. Elsa ~351
143. Elesa ~401
144. Cercic ~451
145. Creopa ~473
146. Cynric 495
147. Ceawlin 535
148. Cuthwine ~564
149. Cuthwulf 592
150. Ceowald ~616

151. Cenred 640
152. Ingild ~673
153. Eoppa 706
154. Eaba 730
155. Ealhmund 750
156. Ecgert 775
157. Aethelwulf 795
158. Alfred the Great 847
159. Edward the Elder 871
160. Edmund I 921

161. Edgar the Peaceful 943
162. Aethelred 968
163. Edmund Ironside 989
164. Edward the Exile 1016
165. Margaret of Scotland 1045
166. Matilda of Scotland 1080
167. Matilda of England 1102
168. Henry II 1133
169. John 1167
170. Henry III 1207

171. Edward I 1239
172. Edward II 1284
173. Edward III 1312
174. John of Gaunt 1340
175. John Beafort (Earl) 1371
176. John Beafort (Duke) 1403
177. Margaret Beafort 1443
178. Henry VII 1457
179. Margaret Tudor 1489
180. James V 1512

181. Mary of Scotland 1542
182. James I 1566
183. Elizabeth Stuart 1596
184. Sophia of Hanover 1630
185. George I 1660
186. George II 1683
187. Frederick of Wales 1707
188. George III 1738
189. Edward of Kent 1767
190. Victoria 1819

191. Edward VII 1841
192. George V 1865
193. George VI 1895
194. Elizabeth II 1926
195. Charles 1948
196. William 1982 197. George 2013


__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 7, 2013

A few more questions. The gift of long life was given to Numenoreans because of the help of Edain in the War of Wrath. The same gift was given to Adam's descendants... What for? The Fall from Grace? Could this moment be a bit elaborated upon?

 

I stumbled on the dates in Morgoth's Ring when looking for something else. Your are not too off with the estimate of the Elves' lifespan being 144 times longer than human's, turns out just above 17 thousand years...

1050 to 1495 YT - from the Elves' awakening to the darkening of Valinor;

1495 to 1497 (the latter date appears in the War of The Jewels and that book is not with me now, so this can be wrong) - from the darkening to the first Sunrise.

So 447 YT overall, or 9.58x447=~4282 Sun years.

Then the first three Ages, 7052 years in all.

Plus 6019 more years until now based on your chronology conversion.

But that would be just from the Elves' awakening to date. Someone as familiar with astronomy as you are might perhaps use the estimate of the time our planet is expected to last, from now until swallowed by the expanding Sun. Elves are supposed to live that long.

I see a difference in how you and I compute the generation length. You seem to divide by the number of individuals (e.g. Adan to Amal, 8 overall) and I divide by the number of intervals, which is one less. We are looking at the intervals I think. But the difference in most cases is immaterial. I noticed it for the Lords of Andunie.

Any reason for fluctuations in the generation length (after Adam I mean)? According to what you present it goes up (even to 90) and down. (I suspect the reasons may be obvious, but not to me.). I would not say that this constitutes a very simple pattern but maybe on a graph it would be clear. Not that you have to make it of course.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Wednesday 7th of August 2013 05:24:57 AM

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 7, 2013
"A few more questions. The gift of long life was given to Numenoreans because of the help of Edain in the War of Wrath. The same gift was given to Adam's descendants... What for? The Fall from Grace? Could this moment be a bit elaborated upon?"

For defeating Sauron? I'm not sure if I could elaborate upon it as well as others. I'm just a chronologist.

"I stumbled on the dates in Morgoth's Ring when looking for something else. Your are not too off with the estimate of the Elves' lifespan being 144 times longer than human's, turns out just above 17 thousand years..."

Do you know the chapter and page? It's been a while since I read it and I'd love to quote it.

"So 447 YT overall, or 9.58x447=~4282 Sun years."

Actually, I go by the simpler rule that a yen is 144 years of man. From Wikipedia:

In the 1930s and 40s Tolkien used a figure which fluctuated slightly around ten before settling on 9.582 solar years in each Valian year. However, in the 1950s Tolkien decided to use a much greater value of 144 solar years per Valian year, and included this figure in The Lord of the Rings appendices as the length of the elven year (the yen).

This has some advantages. In astrology a Great Day, which is the time it takes for the precession of the equinoxes to move by one degree, is 72 years. That's exactly half a yen. A Great Year is 360 Great Days, or exactly 180 yen.

1897 would then be the precise beginning of a Great Mid-year's Day. That's kind of interesting when looking at a biography of Tolkien. But it is also exactly 3 Great Years since the awakening of the Elves. 1500 YT-1050=450. 450+90=540. 540=3*180.

"But that would be just from the Elves' awakening to date. Someone as familiar with astronomy as you are might perhaps use the estimate of the time our planet is expected to last, from now until swallowed by the expanding Sun. Elves are supposed to live that long."

5.4 billion years in the future.

With the hydrogen supply exhausted at its core, the Sun leaves the main sequence and begins to evolve into a red giant.[46]

7.9 billion years in the future.

The Sun reaches the tip of the red giant branch, achieving its maximum radius of 256 times the present day value.[46] In the process, Mercury, Venus and possibly Earth are destroyed.[47]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future

"I see a difference in how you and I compute the generation length. You seem to divide by the number of individuals (e.g. Adan to Amal, 8 overall) and I divide by the number of intervals, which is one less. We are looking at the intervals I think. But the difference in most cases is immaterial. I noticed it for the Lords of Andunie."

You should do it by the number of individuals. To see what I mean try figuring out the average interval if only two individuals are involved.

"Any reason for fluctuations in the generation length (after Adam I mean)? According to what you present it goes up (even to 90) and down. (I suspect the reasons may be obvious, but not to me.). I would not say that this constitutes a very simple pattern but maybe on a graph it would be clear. Not that you have to make it of course."

Look at the number of generations.



__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 8, 2013

"For defeating Sauron? I'm not sure if I could elaborate upon it as well as others. I'm just a chronologist."

A reward for defeating Sauron would apply to Eldarion's line, but Seth is not him and is born after the Fall from Grace?

 

"Do you know the chapter and page? It's been a while since I read it and I'd love to quote it."

Morgoth's Ring

The Annals of Aman

Of the beginning of time and its reconing

The relevant info appears on pages 50 to 60 and the dates of Elves' awakening, darkening of Valinor, and Moonrise and Dawn (1500 and not 1497 as I erroneously wrote) appear in the Annals also.

 

"Actually, I go by the simpler rule that a yen is 144 years of man."

Seems this is what you used when you came up with 75864 BC for the awakening.

 

"You should do it by the number of individuals. To see what I mean try figuring out the average interval if only two individuals are involved."

The generation length is the time interval between the child's date of birth and the parent's DOB (unless we are averaging between both parents). So if just two people, a parent and a child, are involved, there is only one data point - one interval and nothing to average. I am getting curious as to how you computed it for a parent-offspring pair! Now if we talk of longevity, we need two dates for each person (birth and death) and for the average longevity the denominator is the number of people of course. It occurs to me that you computed neither of them.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Thursday 8th of August 2013 03:06:46 AM

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 8, 2013
"A reward for defeating Sauron would apply to Eldarion's line, but Seth is not him and is born after the Fall from Grace?"

That seems right.

The usual routine in Adam and Eve like stories in other traditions is that they were offered immortality but chose a mortal life so that they could have children. I'm not sure how that would apply here, if at all.

"The generation length is the time interval between the child's date of birth and the parent's DOB (unless we are averaging between both parents).

I am averaging the length between generations. If we know the child's date of birth and the parent's DOB we have enough information for an average, if you can call the averaging of only one generation length an average.
Example:

1. Great Grandpa b. 1900
2. Grandpa b. 1925
3. Pop b. 1950
4. Junior b. 1975

The average generation length is obviously 25 years.

"You seem to divide by the number of individuals (e.g. Adan to Amal, 8 overall) and I divide by the number of intervals, which is one less."

To compute the average generation length of the three individuals from Great Grandpa to Pop I would take the year of Junior's birth and subtract from that the year of Great Grandpa's birth (1975-1900=75). Then I would divide by the number of individuals from Great Grandpa to Pop (3) and arrive at 25.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 8, 2013
I would say you compute the average generation length for three generations not three people. You have exactly three intervals... But you involve 4 persons - you look at the Junior's DOB, even though you call it "from Great Grandpa to Pop". How would you call it for one generation - "from Great Grandpa to Great Grandpa" and use his DOB and then the Grandpa's DOB? I mean it is fine, results in the same thing, one just needs to understand the terminology used by another. Now I seem to understand.

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 9, 2013
I guess I don't know the proper terminology. What I was computing is the average age at which a particular group of people had an heir. I don't know what the exact word for that is. The 18 Lords of Andunie, for instance, had an heir at the age 138.3, on average. The only way to know this is to factor in the DOB of the first person who wasn't a Lord.

Have you ever noticed that in many ancient kings lists that they often come in groups of round numbers like 5 or 10? Tolkien, I'm assuming, continued this tradition.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 9, 2013
1. (Adan) 11,064
2. (Atan) ~11,025
3. (Adar) ~10,986
4. (Adal) ~10,947
5. (Atar) ~10,908
6. (Atal) ~10,869
7. (Amar) ~10,830
8. (Amal) ~10,791
9. Marach 10,752
10. Malach 10,689

11. Magor 10,667
12. Hathol ~10,648
13. Hador ~10,629
14. Galdor 10,610
15. Huor ~10,591
16. Tuor ~10,572
17. Earendil ~10,553
18. Elros 10,533
19. (Elan) ~10,394
20. (Eland) ~10,255

21. (Eladan) ~10,116
22. Elatan ~9,977
23. Valandil 9,838
24. (Eldacar) 9,680
25. (Silmarion) 9,526
26. (Arantar) 9,364
27. (Siriondil) 9,205
28. (Valacar) 9,050
29. (Telumehtar) 8,901
30. (Anardil) 8,750

31. (Meneldil) 8,604
32. (Herendil) 8,466
33. (Axantur) 8,331
34. (Veandur) 8,200
35. (Ciryon) 8,074
36. (Ulmondil) 7,953
37. Earendur 7,838
38. (Valandur) 7,721
39. Numendil 7,610
40. Amandil 7,505

41. Elendil 7,349
42. Isildur 7,259
43. Valandil 7,038
44. Eldacar 6,940
45. Arantar 6,842
46. Tarcil 6,747
47. Tarondor 6,655
48. Valandur 6,565
49. Elendur 6,475
50. Earendur 6,387

51. Amlaith 6,301
52. Beleg 6,216
53. Mallor 6,132
54. Celepharn 6,048
55. Celebrindor 5,965
56. Malvegil 5,833
57. Argeleb I 5,801
58. Arveleg I 5,718
59. Araphor 5,636
60. Argeleb II 5,554

61. Arvegil 5,474
62. Arveleg II 5,394
63. Araval 5,316
64. Araphant 5,238
65. Arvedui 5,163
66. Aranarth 5,089
67. Arahael 5,025
68. Aranuir 4,943
69. Aravir 4,871
70. Aragorn I 4,800

71. Araglas 4,731
72. Arahad I 4,662
73. Aragost 4,596
74. Aravorn 4,530
75. Arahad II 4,464
76. Arassuil 4,399
77. Arathorn I 4,334
78. Argonui 4,270
79. Arador 4,207
80. Arathorn II 4,154

81. Adam 4,007
82. Seth 3,876
83. Enosh 3,771
84. Kenan 3,681
85. Mahalalel 3,611
86. Jared 3,546
87. Enoch 3,384
88. Methuselah 3,319
89. Lamech 3,132
90. Noah 2,950

91. Shem 2,450
92. Arpachshad 2,350
93. Shelah 2,315
94. Eber 2,285
95. Peleg 2,251
96. Reu 2,221
97. Serug 2,189
98. Nahor 2,159
99. Terah 2,130
100. Abram 2,000

101. Isaac 1,900
102. Jacob 1,840
103. Judah 1,760
104. Zerah ~1,725
105. Darda ~1,575
106. Erichthonius ~1,450
107. Tros ~1,400
108. Ilus ~1,350
109. Laomedon ~1,300
110. Tithonus ~1,250

111. Memnon ~1,200
112. Tror ~1,185
113. Loridi ~1,100
114. Einridi ~1,050
115. Vingethor ~1,000
116. Vingener ~950
117. Modi ~900
118. Magi ~850
119. Sceaf ~800
120. Bedwig ~750

121. Hwala ~700
122. Hratha ~650
123. Itermon ~600
124. Heremod ~550
125. Sceldwea ~500
126. Beaw ~450
127. Taetwa ~400
128. Geat ~350
129. Godwulf ~300
130. Finn ~250

131. Frithuwulf ~200
132. Frealaf ~150
133. Freawine ~100
134. Frithuwald ~50
135. Woden ~1 AD
136. Yngvi ~31
137. Njordr ~61
138. Freyr ~91
139. Fjolnir ~121
140. Sveigdir ~151

141. Valandi ~181
142. Visbur ~211
143. Domalde ~241
144. Domar ~271
145. Dyggvi ~301
146. Dag the Wise ~331
147. Agne ~361
148. Alrek ~391
149. Yngvi ~421
150. Jorund ~451

151. Aun ~481
152. Ongentheow ~511
153. Ohthere ~541
154. Eadgils ~571
155. Eysteinn ~601
156. Ingvar ~631
157. Anund ~661
158. Ingjald ~691
159. Oloftratalja ~721
160. Halfdan ~751

161. Eystein ~771
162. Halfdan the Mild ~791
163. Gudrod the Hunter ~811
164. Halfdan the Black ~831
165. Harald I ~851
166. Sigurd Rise 912
167. Halfdan Syr 935
168. Sigurd Syr 970
169. Harald III 1015
170. Olaf III 1050

171. Magnus III 1073
172. Harald IV 1103
173. Sigurd II 1133
174. Sverre 1151
175. Haakon III 1175
176. Haakon IV 1204
177. Magnus VI 1238
178. Haakon V 1270
179. Ingborg of Norway 1301
180. Euphemia of Sweden 1317

181. Ingeborg 1343
182. Gerhard VI 1367
183. Helvig of Schauenburg 1398
184. Christian I 1426
185. Frederick I 1471
186. Christian III 1503
187. Frederick II 1534
188. Christian 1577
189. Frederick III 1609
190. Christian V 1646

191. Frederick IV 1671
192. Christian VI 1699
193. Frederick V 1723
194. Frederick 1753
195. Louise Charlotte of Denmark 1789
196. Louise of Hesse-Kassel 1817
197. Frederick VIII of Denmark 1843
198. Haakon VII 1872
199. Olaf V 1903
200. Harald V 1937

201. Haakon 1973
202. Ingrid 2004

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 9, 2013
Yes, I noticed quite a few multiples of 5. Just wasn't sure of a pattern. I eventually put the numbers up on a graph and in the process noticed that the number of generations does not add up to 196. I got 194 using what you called a table. Were some people or intervals omitted or is there some overlap so they should not be expected to add up? Maybe this is not at all important, but maybe in fact there should be more multiples of 5, clarifying the pattern?
I was always silently wondering why the British line got this special treatment, but was hesitant to ask. Now the Scandinavian/Danish line appears... May I ask a stupid question: are Yngvi and Baeldaeg known or inferred siblings? And another question, I am just curious - are both these lines known for exceptional longevity (if you know)?

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 10, 2013
The total is 194 because the last three on the list are not (yet) Kings of Great Britain. For some unknown reason the post appears with 197. right after 196. I did not type it in like this and I can't seem to figure out how to get the computer to stop printing it this way.

194. Elizabeth II 1926
195. Charles 1948
196. William 1982 197. George 2013

Yes, Yngvi and Baeldaeg are brothers. Their longevity can be presumed from the number of generations given in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle from the Fall of Troy to their time. From the Younger Edda:

"Another son of Odin hight Beldegg, whom we call Balder; he possessed the land which now hight Vestfal; his son was Brander, and his son Frjodigar, whom we call Froda (Frode). His son was Freovit, his son Yvigg, his son Gevis, whom we call Gave."

"Thereupon he fared north until he reached the sea, which they thought surrounded all lands, and there he established his son in the kingdom, which is now called Norway; he is hight Saming, and the kings of Norway count their ancestors back to him, and so do the jarls and other mighty men, as it is stated in the Haleygjatal.7 But Odin had with him that son who is called Yngve, who was king in Sweden, and from him is descended the families called Ynglings (Yngvelings)."

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 23, 2013

Looking in HoMe Vol.V for something else yet again, I realized that what Tolkien was planning to write in The Lost Road has a certain similarity to your reconstruction of the ancestries. Of course it was conceived and partly written (and then abandoned) before the LOTR and none of the Third Age characters are there. Nor it is clearly said that those re-occurring father-son pairs ('Bliss-friend' and 'Elf-friend', reappearing in human families like Durin among the Dwarves) were all in a direct line - maybe they were if indeed Durin was also reborn within his line of offspring. Anyway, those father-son pairs were supposed to appear in the story (in a backwards manner) from the 20th century all the way to Numenor. In between there should have been
Lombard story
A Norse story of ship-burial
An English story
A Tuatha-de-Danaan story (Tir-nan-Og)
'Painted caves'
Prehistoric North - kings found buried in the ice
Beleriand (at that time it was not supposed to have sunk completely)
Elendil and Gil-galad story of the assault on Thu
The Numenor story
And the North Sea traditions of the coming of ancestors of kingly lines in boats were mentioned as a part of the Norse story - and "Sheaf ... can actually be made out as one of the remote ancestors of the present Queen". You probably have seen this all already.
Not being very familiar with all these (the historic and other-than-Tolkien legend parts) I am wondering if there is indeed any parallel with what you came up with?

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 24, 2013
There is indeed a parallel, but I haven't yet sorted it all out. There is a lot to be done.

In the old legends it is pretty typical for the god-kings to reappear many times and in different lines. If one looks at the descendents of Cain, for instance, you will see quite a few names that pop up again, and in the same order, in the list of the sons of Seth. There are also many different Odins, Thors, Lughs, and so on. This may reflect a primitive understanding of evolution or even Mendelian genetics; the same characters are reborn because the same heroic traits are passed along to a future generation to be expressed again. This is how DNA and the gods are both ultimately immortal. But they must pass through tests of survival of the fittest. These legends may have so much appeal to us because they impart the wisdom necessary to endure our own challenges, as the struggle never ends.

I've been working on these chronologies and genealogies in the hope of putting together a comprehensive system tying together the major legends and myths. Eusebius and Saint Jerome did a fairly decent job but much of their information was inaccurate and dismissive of the pagan beliefs. And such chronologies as the Annals of the Four Masters are very useful if they, too, could be made consistent with the others. There isn't much out there for the Norse mythos if it is taken into the far past. I believe that Tolkien may have been trying to create something like that with his writings.

Naturally, I greatly desired to find a way to date the events in Middle-earth. Good fortune came along when I realized that a perfect fit was possible; the Fourth Age could be the same as Anno Mundi. With that many of the other legends, not just biblical, could all be put together seamlessly and consistently in a chronology that could go all the way back to Ice Ages. The only thing lacking was some sort of tie-in.

If I were to do it for these stories:

Lombard story
A Norse story of ship-burial
An English story
A Tuatha-de-Danaan story (Tir-nan-Og)
'Painted caves'
Prehistoric North - kings found buried in the ice
Beleriand (at that time it was not supposed to have sunk completely)
Elendil and Gil-galad story of the assault on Thu
The Numenor story
And the North Sea traditions of the coming of ancestors of kingly lines in boats were mentioned as a part of the Norse story - and "Sheaf ... can actually be made out as one of the remote ancestors of the present Queen".

it wouldn't be following a line of Seth, but rather some of Aragorn's other children. Thor and Odin would be sure to appear again.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 25, 2013
I see. Originally I was skeptical about all this... But from the beginning I was also thinking whether genetic methods could be applied here to check some assumptions or conclusions - if there any relations that don't follow directly from the already known genealogies. The relatedness will be probably very weak but if the pedigrees are known there might be ways of looking into that (so the mention of pedigrees in my first post in this thread was not only a joke). But that is an enormous task!
On another note I wonder if one should look for the longevity polymorphisms in these lines...

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 26, 2013
Well, first I must check the remaining 2^197- 197 ancestors. This might take awhile. That would be two hundred octodecillion people. I'll get right on it.

Let's see. If I can get a milligram of sample material for each the total mass might not exceed that of the observable universe.

If I can get a supercomputer that can sort through a trillion trillion trillion per second it should only take me less than half a million times the current age of the universe to complete.

I'll get right back to you when I'm done.



__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 27, 2013
This is a slight exaggeration, pretty appealing by the way since it implies virtual immortality (of those interested), and I agree to wait.

But that's not what I meant even in that original post. I just need to learn how to express myself clearly.

Maybe an example would help. It follows from your reconstruction that Prince George and Princess (?) Ingrid are distant relatives. Their relatedness is quite weak if it is based on that line only, and wouldn't be expected to be noticeably greater than the background relatedness of say Northern Europeans. Yet if both had descended not from Woden (male) but from a female and both through a female line, their relatedness would have been easy to observe (without even knowing their ancestry). However, since their origin is known anyway, why bother to try to confirm it. If, on the other hand, there were individuals that, according to your reconstruction, hypothetically could be (distant) relatives and you wanted to find independent evidence, in some special cases this might be possible. All-male or all-female lines (in the latter case the currently living ones being compared could be of either gender) are helpful for this purpose - if such lines are known or can be proposed.

If there is any chance that Numenorean (or Elven even better) 'genetic material' is still present in the existing populations, it becomes tempting to drop everything and start looking for it - one just needs to know where to look.

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 28, 2013
Patrilineal lines could be confirmed or refuted by Y chromosomes and matrilineal by mitochondria, but this would seem too much like the infamous midi-chlorions of Star Wars. There must also be a spiritual aspect to Elvishness, or how could Elrond and Elros have made a choice?

In addition, there are the unknowns of adoptions. This is used to explain the conflicting genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke. Thror was adopted at some point according to the Prose Edda. It may be impossible to untangle.

The point of the genealogies is to show a connection, a continuing storyline. The genetic relationship becomes trivial after too many generations, unless there is sufficient inbreeding. This is often the case with royalty.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 28, 2013
I must acknowledge my ignorance once more - I have never watched Star Wars (not a movie person) and had no idea they did something with mtDNA or with Y.
But even Star Wars don't invalidate the approach if it is applicable. Maybe not in this case (or not very helpful). How indeed a mortal/immortal switch operated is most curious. How did Tuor become immortal and Luthien mortal (let alone the half-Elven on whom I am hoping to post in another thread, as it is off this topic)? We are not given much detail on that. Whether it was biological or spiritual we simply don't know.

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 28, 2013
The idea for mid-chlorians was in the later Star Wars movies and it wasn't very popular with the fans. In fact, the 'prequels' themselves weren't. So you didn't miss anything, except to see what could have been a great story ruined by the greed of the creator.

Star Wars was inspired by Lord of the Rings in many obvious ways. The third part of the original trilogy is called Return of the Jedi, for crying out loud.

Some things that are mystical should probably be left that way. I think Tolkien understood this. This is one of many reasons he might have been the greatest writer since Dante or Homer.

Is Elvishness biological or spiritual? Why do these need to be mutually exclusive? The mystical is the part of ourselves that we cannot see directly. Thus it is not usually detectable or measurable in an objective or scientific way, at least not by our own selves. There is no reason to suppose that a part of your 'spirit' is not carried within your DNA, but you'll never be able to see it, even if you're looking at it right through a microscope. Instead, it becomes a part of our dreams and visions that are from our ancestors; the so-called archetypes. If we survive our own mythic struggles, we can pass them on to our descendents.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 29, 2013
Mystical things should be left mystical... maybe, and some understand that and leave them alone, and others just would not be able to put them out of thought. Not everything can be measured, and a microscope or genotyping or the like will not always help - still, much can be deduced from indirect evidence, like those archetypes. Indeed spiritual qualities may be biological. I liked this post of yours a lot, except that the last sentence is very troubling and it is also recurrent. Hope this is just the figure of speech though.

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Aug 30, 2013
I agree whole-heartedly with what you wrote, but for perhaps the last part.
My last sentence is about the Darwinian struggle for existence, which is always occurring. Many assume that it only refers to nature being "red in tooth and claw", but as much evolution happens during times of peace as otherwise. Caring for others can bring about as much of a change as any battle. Perhaps Sauron saw the corruption of world and saw that his time had come. Would the War of the Ring have to been fought at all if it weren't for the good people letting their guard down?

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Aug 31, 2013
Now I got it. I agree - evolution never stops of course, it is still happening, even in the modern societies in 'civilized' countries (not only through survival).
Third Age... a shaky ground (not as bad as the real history, but still...). The corruption of the world when Sauron came back for the last time didn't go as far as it did in Numenor. Could the War of the Ring have been prevented? Yes, if Elrond had succeeded in persuading Isildur (his relative to a trivial degree) to cast the ring in the fire of Mt Doom. But that's probably not what you meant. Was an "early detection and intervention" (sorry for the jargon) possible? I am afraid not once Saruman got corrupted. And could that have been prevented or noticed timely? Gandalf was ever on his guard but arguing with Saruman was difficult.

__________________

Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 127
Date: Sep 3, 2013
I was speaking in a more general sense. To me, the ring represents greed. That's why it's golden. During times of peace people can be slowly corrupted by material wealth. They forget about their heroic past and become apathetic. Altruism requires sacrifice. Selfish individuals can acquire money and power by betraying their own.
Can this be detected? Perhaps. But seeing the flaws in our own selves is difficult. It is natural for people to go into a state of denial if there is things to be gained by not noticing our own little evils. Eventually it builds up to the point of catastrophe.
Also, sometimes the attempt to get something directly leads to the opposite result. The fearing of death by the Numenoreans only shortened their lives.

__________________
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 383
Date: Sep 4, 2013
I would say that people (meaning humans) are, in general, not predisposed to spontaneous heroic deeds - such deeds are mostly done out of necessity, and to me it seems much better when these deeds are not needed. I may not be getting you right, but are you saying that since people tend to get corrupted during peaceful times, such times are not good for them? Hope you don't mean that wars and catastrophes are what we need and not the quiet times? I am asking because I have heard the opinion that quiet times don't provide the opportunity to express one's heroic nature, and are therefore boring, and my view is totally opposite (and unpopular).
That people do deny their flaws even to themselves is very true - self-understanding can be viewed as a heroic deed, because it is very much against human nature. It seems to me though that those flaws are denied not just when the denial helps get something; they are denied almost always. And sure, better self-understanding would make self-improvement necessary and corruption less likely.
It is only natural to start with the most direct approach to solve a problem. In the case of Numenoreans, their problem simply had no solution, they wanted more than a longer life. So indeed they got the opposite - all perished. Isn't it interesting though that Elrond's children were still given a choice but not those of Elros.

__________________

Lórellinë

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 753
Date: Sep 4, 2013
I have enjoyed both James the Just and Lorelline's commentary thus far. It is both theological and philological.
I speak only as one who upholds the laws of a warrior (these days a little more of the worrier), and assure the reader that humans are INDEED "predisposed to ===heroic deeds".

Those who speak the warrior's code know: "Pray for peace; prepare for war!" Always. And if there is no WAR to speak of.. then you write poetry and you participate in the populaces' community. We are ever vigilant and can't wait to jump in...at least I am...
A lot of times a man/woman finds him(her)self in a unique position to help...and it depends on whether you are an observer by birth or a hero-born! Most heroes come from nothing; and as such; revere....everything!

Please do not lose your faith in people, who, throughout history have proven that they can bolster their numbers to a hornet's nest to conquer a singular foe...
I agree with James the Just: "Caring for others can bring about as much of a change as any battle."

J













__________________
 
1 2  >  Last»  | Page of 2  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.



Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard