Alright I am doing this by memory, so tell me if I get something wrong. Aragorn said at Parth Galen that Sauron did not use his right name or allowed it to be spoken, so why did the Mouth of Sauron introduce himself with that name? And also I think that he even referred to his master as Sauron the Great, or something like that anyway. So what do you guys think? Was it just a slip up or what?
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'Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters - but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only.'
Kyranger, it's great to quote something from memory, but it would be a lot easier if you could find it in the book. That would help a lot. You did get the quote from the book, right? Not from the Movie.
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Alright, here are the quotes - '' I have not seen these tokens before'' said Aragorn. ''What do they mean?'' ''S is for Sauron,'' said Gimli. ''That is easy to read.'' ''Nay!'' said Legolas. ''Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'' ''Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken'' said Aragorn. ''And he does not use white. The orcs in the service of Barad-dur use the sign of the Red Eye.'', and ' The lieutenant of the tower of Barad-dur he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it,and he said ''I am the mouth of Sauron'', and ''But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose to far Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great.'' And yes I did get them out of the book.
-- Edited by Kyranger on Saturday 27th of November 2010 05:03:45 PM
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'Lonely men are we, Rangers of the wild, hunters - but hunters ever of the servants of the Enemy; for they are found in many places, not in Mordor only.'
In my opinion Aragorn need not mean 'not in any circumstance whatsoever'... and the Mouth of Sauron is actually speaking for Sauron later, and I would suggest he not only has permission to speak the name in this instance, but would be expected to.
People don't always feel the need to add digressions when their point is true enough with respect to the circumstances involved. To my mind this is just realistic enough conversation.
-- Edited by Galin on Wednesday 1st of December 2010 02:14:42 PM
I agree. I do not think Aragorn meant that Sauron's name would never be spoken. I would have thought the Nazgul would have used his name at some point. Did they in the LOTR books at all?
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Perhaps, and I will have to research a little bit on this, Sauron is the name given to him by the speaking people of ME and not his "actual" name. Maybe, like many of the Maiar and the Vala, he has a proper name and many others. A name of magic or spiritual essence could possibly invoke some sort of power "Sauron" did not want mortals to invoke. Hmmm... an interesting and easilly over looked tid bit. BTW- Welcome to the forums, Kyranger!! Well met.
I would say Sauron was not this being's original name (there must be a post on Mairon here somewhere), but yet the context of the text above appears to concern the name 'Sauron' in any case. In other words, Aragorn is saying that Sauron does not allow 'Sauron' to be used...
... or if not, to me it would seem kind of odd to say Sauron does not generally permit some other name to be spelt or spoken, right after someone says 'S is for Sauron'.
Yeah, Sauron wouldnt have much control over if people used the name that wasnt his original name. Nor do I think he tracks people like voldemort did in deathly hallows.
Sauron was his original name according to the Silmarillion. He was a Maia, early subverted in the First Age by Melkor. Here is a well researched link, compliments of Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauron
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
The Silmarillion did not give him any other name. We will never know what it was, because Eru did not give the maiar names. But if somebody calls himself by that name, why would you doubt that that is his name?
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Morgoth's Ring notes that Sauron was the name by which this Maia was 'afterwards called', which makes sense considring its meaning. In the journal Parma Eldalamberon it's said (within an entry that appears abandoned regarding the derivation of Sauron itself however) that Sauron's 'original' name was Mairon.
Still, one wonders as the name looks to be of Quenya derivation. Possibly the meaning is that his 'original' name meant 'Admirable' which was rendered in Quenya as Mairon.
'Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King Excellent', until after the downfall of Númenor.' JRRT, PE 17
Note also (same source) maira 'admirable, excellent, precious' or 'splendid, sublime, only [used] of great, august or splendid things'
I want to say Annika was not the original name was (must have a Mairon post here somewhere), but not the context of the above text concerns the name "Solon", in any case
I can't remember quite where I read that. I think the spelling is close but it was something that MyJuliet wrote that sparked the memory. I could swear that was his name while he served under Aule the Smith. Don't have copy of the Silmarillion anymore so I can't cross reference at this time.
Galin, Well done! I wish to know what text you found that in. If you will, please note the source of that knowledge. I would like to peruse said text. I'm sure that would satisfy my thirst, it would solidify my thoughts.
-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Sunday 14th of August 2011 09:00:45 PM
OK the text is called Words, Phrases and Passages -- or the collection of linguistic texts and notes that were published with it anyway... I can't remember exactly at the moment, but in any case all these texts have been published together in a journal called Parma Eldalamberon, issue number 17 -- or in short, PE17.
As I say above (or try to) the information about the name Mairon appears connected to an entry concerning the name Sauron -- in other words, it looks like Tolkien was musing about the derivation of Sauron and added some thoughts about Sauron's other names -- and the entry on Sauron itself looks to have been superseded (at least in part) by a later idea...
... however the 'Mairon part' of the entry isn't necessarily superseded (that we know of right now), because it's not really about the derivation of the name Sauron in particular.
If interested in purchasing PE 17, go to the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship website (E.L.F) for more information. ELF members also publish Vinyar Tengwar too.
The silmarillion states that among the maiar that followed melkor "among those of his servants that have name the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel." So Sauron did not name himself. He was called both Sauron and Gorthaur the Cruel by the Eldar. Those were his original names.
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
I think to address the starting post to this thread I would say that Sauron did not permit the spelling or use of his name meant: The use of his real name. As Huan the Great Hound states: "Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. So Sauron did not name himself." I agree with that statement and as those names are derived from a place of distrust or even mockery.
Sauron, being a Maiar, would not allow anyone to speak those names and most certainly not his true name (as he probably wished to put the memories tied to it behind him). The only name I've heard from extensive internet searching was Mairon (according to the Parma EldalamberonEarly Quenya and Valmaric script by JRRT (although I have only been following reference notes and have not perused the material myself). Mairon "The Admirable" was the name of the greatest craftsman under the tutelage of Aule when things were Hunky-Dory, before Sauron switched sides. It was said of him: "it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall...) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction." JRRT and Christopher Tolkien's Morgoth's ring (1993) Houghton Mifflin.
Jaidoprism7 wrote: I think to address the starting post to this thread I would say that Sauron did not permit the spelling or use of his name meant: The use of his real name. AsHuan the Great Houndstates: "Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. So Sauron did not name himself." I agree with that statement and as those names are derived from a place of distrust or even mockery.Sauron, being a Maiar, would not allow anyone to speak those names and most certainly not his true name (as he probably wished to put the memories tied to it behind him).
But doesn't the context of the statement indicate that the name Sauron is meant in any case? As I say above: to me it would seem kind of odd to say (or mean) that Sauron does not generally permit some other name to be spelt or spoken, right after someone says 'S is for Sauron'.
-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 15th of September 2011 10:32:47 PM
Kyranger wrote the qoute from the book after ArwenLegolas nailed him for not having a proper reference (His second post on this thread. Third post overall.) To paraphrase... Gimli says "S is for Sauron. That is easy to read." to which Legolas states: "Sauron does not use the Elf-runes." Then Aragorn says: "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken."
Galin wrote: "to me it would seem kind of odd to say (or mean) that Sauron does not generally permit some other name to be spelt or spoken, right after someone says 'S is for Sauron'. There are a lot of oddities in the books but I can understand why Sauron wouldn't want to use his proper name. In other words I don't think his minions would casually answer him, "Yo! What up Sauron." I think to use the slanderous term in his presence would assure death. Beside all this, if you read back up the thread a bit, I'm pretty much echoing Galin's findings. Now that I read them again it looks like I copied Galin's homework! Ach! Highschool never ends. Here I thought I was scrambling to unsurface something grandiose. Oh well that kind of deep research is to be expected amongst the fine members of this forum. So there's got to be something to it all.
The mouth of Sauron probably used the name because that was the name used most widely in all of Middle earth and would be conveyed quickly and inspire fear amongst his enemy. Somebody's got to tell me if I'm totally confusing the topic here...
Besides that, couldn't we make the following statements:
Sauron = Mairon
Devil= Lucifer?
-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Friday 16th of September 2011 01:55:05 AM
-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Friday 16th of September 2011 01:59:13 AM
Interesting perspective and a nice cap to Galin's work. (looks like you did more than a little work yourself)
"The Eye" seems to be his name also.
My name here is "Bear" but that is not the name my patients call me. (they could if they wanted) But then again I am not a maiar or valar ... with a jones to kick butt!
The point is that Sauron didn't tolerate the use of his name lightly ... it was sort of a "one who must not be named" like Rowlings "Lord V ----"
I wonder what Sauron's last words were when Gollum fell into the fire with The Ring at the Cracks of Doom ... I don't think "Gosh! Darn!" would have covered it.
-- Edited by Bear on Friday 16th of September 2011 02:12:13 AM
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
The Orcs weren't lettered creatures and the symbol of the Great Eye was more than enough scribing for them. "What news from Mordor my Lord? What does the eye command." to take a quote from the movies. Cheers my friend!
Bear wrote:I wonder what Sauron's last words were when Gollum fell into the fire with The Ring at the Cracks of Doom ... I don't think "Gosh! Darn!" would have covered it.
*Sauron rushes over to his window to see Mt Doom exploding before heading back to his throne*
To blather on more here: I don't think Aragorn meaning the name Sauron in itself is odd, as that fits the context of trying to figure out the rune. I mean, I think it would be a bit odd if Aragorn was referring to another name besides Sauron here -- so I think Sauron's 'real name' is basically beside the point in any case.
In other words, if Aragorn meant: and he doesn't allow his right name -- as in Mairon or some other name (a name that none of the other people he is speaking to would care much about at the moment) -- to be spelt or spoken, well then that would be a bit 'off the point' here, because if Sauron isn't his 'right name' -- again in this context -- then what real bearing does this statement have in figuring out what the S-rune stands for?
To my mind Aragorn must mean 'Sauron' in this instance, and the argument about whether Sauron can be said to be the Dark Lord's 'right name' is simply a small can of worms that Tolkien probably didn't think too much about; which admittedly is a bit odd, considering this is JRR Tolkien.
What is a 'right name' if it's not an original name, or 'true name'? Of all people surely Tolkien knew that Sauron was not originally called Sauron, and that the meaning was not exactly nice. Did Sauron yet himself adopt this name despite its negative meaning? Possibly; and names have a way of becoming names no matter what they mean too. But in the end I think Tolkien could have worded this better to avoid the question itself.
Just like the other can of worms Tolkien either missed or let slide here: that an S-rune should stand for Saruman! S cannot stand for Saruman,as that name was not known to the characters within the story. Within the conceit, Saruman is a translated name, so the real name it translates 'must' coincidentally begin with this sound!
It 'must' because 'Sauron' is a name the characters would actually know, thus the rune concerned must truly be an S-rune. Did one of Saruman's real names begin with an S? Not Curumo nor Curunir, which are both Elvish in any case.
Well it's still possible, but Tolkien is mixing things a bit here: the name in question might begin with an S, but the full name being actually Saruman would be very very... ahem concidental (which Tolkien had already implied with the name Orthanc! having a meaning both in Old English and Elvish!)
-- Edited by Galin on Saturday 17th of September 2011 04:12:16 PM
Galin, maybe we're looking a bit to deeply into this. I would say S stood for Saruman and that he(Saruman) used that name because he was know by it in Rohan and all of middle-earth for that matter. His Rune simbol was ment for him to be recognized by those that fought his his uruks and therefore the only name that would truely accomplish this would be the well known 'Saruman'
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
Well, what I'm pointing out is that Curunir can't have used the name 'Saruman', just as Samwise was not actually called Samwise (Samwise means 'Half-wise' but he was actually called Banazir)
'Saruman' is an Old English construction, a language that had not arisen in Middle-earth during this period, and would not arise until many many years later. Actually the Old English names in the book (Eowyn, Theoden) are not imagined as the actual names of these people or places (again Orthanc aside here, for example) -- they merely represent some other unknown names in the original Red Book.
Just like 'Gandalf' being Old Norse: this wasn't heard nor spoken by Gandalf nor any other character alive in Frodo's day. Old Norse was another language of the future, from the perspective of the characters in the story.
So here the S-rune is correct, because Sauron was a real name spoken back in Frodo's Day. But no one said 'Saruman', or could have, as the modern translator (who knows Old English) has used this to represent some actual name used in Curunir's time.
-- Edited by Galin on Saturday 17th of September 2011 04:40:35 PM
I'm sorry, are these not the names in the lord of the rings? It seems as though Gandalf and Saruman were their common names in the tale and it would make sense that Saruman had an 'S' rune because that was the name in which he was known. I may just be misunderstanding you though my friend
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
I'm sorry, are these not the names in the lord of the rings? It seems as though Gandalf and Saruman were their common names in the tale...
Well these are the names Tolkien put in the books, but not the actual names any of the characters would have used back in the imagined time the characters are speaking.
The Red Book was written in Westron, with smatterings of other languages in there as well, like Sindarin for example. The characters actually said Mithrandir (Sindarin) but no one said 'Gandalf' -- this is Old Norse and no one spoke Old Norse in Middle-earth. They couldn't, as it hadn't been 'invented' yet (it was still a language that would arise in the future, many years after the Fourth Age began).
None of the Hobbits spoke English or Old English of course, nor Old Norse. See: Appendix F On Translation
Another example: Merry's real name was Kalimac not 'Meriadoc', and Saruman's real name in Westron is unknown: he was actually called Curumo or Curunir 'way back then', as these are Elvish names and Elvish was a language that still existed when the Hobbits were imagined to have been alive.
But again, not Saruman. The Hobbits were long dead before Old English became a living language in the World, and the name Saruman, derived from Old English, would have had no meaning to them.
If Tolkien used those names in the books, then that is their intended names. Regardless of the origins. Correct me if I'm wrong but if Tolkien had intended something else, he would have writen something else.
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
Huan the great hound wrote:If Tolkien used those names in the books, then that is their intended names. Regardless of the origins. Correct me if I'm wrong but if Tolkien had intended something else, he would have writen something else.
But he did write something else
It is Tolkien who explained in Appendix F that Sam was really called Ban (Banazir), and that Merry was really named Kali (Kalimac), including that Old English was used to translate the actual language of the Rohirrm (Old English is not their actual language), similar to the way the Old Norse dwarf-names are merely translations.
And externally, it's Tolkien who noted that Balin's tomb had landed him in some 'absurdities' -- the absurdity being that none of the translated names should appear on the actual tomb.
Moreover it makes sense. Tolkien was very interested in languages of course, and he had set the period of the War of the Ring before the rise of languages like Old English and Old Norse. Thus he realized that a name like Gandalf makes sense as a translation, as it means 'Staff-elf' ('magic-staff-elf' more technically)' in Old Norse, a language that didn't exist when the Hobbits were alive.
So yes 'Gandalf' and 'Saruman' are in the modern translation -- that is, the book in Modern English that we read today -- but Tolkien's conceit is that these names are not in the Red Book however, the original work and its ancient copies.
Of course, the external truth is that Tokien just borrowed Gandalf from an Old Norse text and popped it into The Hobbit without worrying about such things at the time. But later he wanted a more realistic approach, and not only explained the Old Norse names as translations, but added Old English into the mix, for example.
Many Elf-names hail from Sindarin and Quenya words --but it was 'absurd' to have an Old English name exist years and years before the language ever existed! JRRT even went so far as to imply the Old English-like runes in The Hobbit simply represent the real runes of the time period.
Anyway all I'm saying is that sometimes even JRRT forgot his own conceit, which ended up in some 'absurdities' or 'amazing coincidences' shall we say. This example is not really a huge error, because the only coincidence that needs explaining here is that the real name which Saruman represents also begins with an S.
That's certainly possible. Maybe Tolkien realized this and thought it 'possible enough' so he let it stand. He arguably did forget with Orthanc however -- because the whole word is involed in that example.
Or he let Orthanc slide too, so he could have his fun!?
-- Edited by Galin on Sunday 18th of September 2011 06:51:40 AM
I think Galin is hitting the topic from a Book Historians point of view, while Huan's speaking from a fans point of view. Both of you are right and I can understand both sides of the discussion, but as you're both hitting on parallel points: N'er the two shall meet. I dig this forum!
From the standpoint of plain old storytelling I think we can all admit that Sauron was the name used by the Good Guys to describe the Main Antagonist of the LOTR books (Whatever his name may be in the original language of the Red Book, Westron was it?) Saruman used the white palm as a symbol and perhaps the "S" as well to declare himself openly to the Rohirim. Saruman knew he was Saruman as Gandalf understood he was Gandalf when he said: "Gandalf means me!!!" I gather that those weren't even close to their names in the original text which is also fictional. The fact that Tolkien took the books to that level of being actual recorded histories of days before the derivatives of the languages we use today was just beyond brilliant! I take it as law, however, that Aragorn knew what he was talking about the use of the eye to denote Sauron and not the "S" as Gimli thought he was only the greatest Ranger/Tracker in Tolkien's books. Besides, Aragorn was also working for Minas Tirith in the days of Ecthellion II, father of Denethor and he was known as Thorongil and he wore a star with many rays on his travel cloak and at one point he left and was last seen heading across the Anduin looking North to Mordor. He did some Recon' there and probably learned much about Sauron and his devices then and learned of the use of the eye as Saurons calling card.
