Morgoth's Ring notes that Sauron was the name by which this Maia was 'afterwards called', which makes sense considring its meaning. In the journal Parma Eldalamberon it's said (within an entry that appears abandoned regarding the derivation of Sauron itself however) that Sauron's 'original' name was Mairon.

Still, one wonders as the name looks to be of Quenya derivation. Possibly the meaning is that his 'original' name meant  'Admirable' which was rendered in Quenya as Mairon.

'Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King Excellent', until after the downfall of Númenor.' JRRT, PE 17

 

Note also (same source) maira 'admirable, excellent, precious' or 'splendid, sublime, only [used] of great, august or splendid things'

 

Mairon is from Words, Phrases and Passages. See my earlier post in this thread

OK the text is called Words, Phrases and Passages -- or the collection of linguistic texts and notes that were published with it anyway... I can't remember exactly at the moment, but in any case all these texts have been published together in a journal called Parma Eldalamberon, issue number 17 -- or in short, PE17.

As I say above (or try to) the information about the name Mairon appears connected to an entry concerning the name Sauron -- in other words, it looks like Tolkien was musing about the derivation of Sauron and added some thoughts about Sauron's other names -- and the entry on Sauron itself looks to have been superseded (at least in part) by a later idea...

... however the 'Mairon part' of the entry isn't necessarily superseded (that we know of right now), because it's not really about the derivation of the name Sauron in particular.

If interested in purchasing PE 17, go to the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship website (E.L.F) for more information. ELF members also publish Vinyar Tengwar too.

Jaidoprism7 wrote: I think to address the starting post to this thread I would say that Sauron did not permit the spelling or use of his name meant: The use of his real name. As Huan the Great Hound states: "Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. So Sauron did not name himself." I agree with that statement and as those names are derived from a place of distrust or even mockery.Sauron, being a Maiar, would not allow anyone to speak those names and most certainly not his true name (as he probably wished to put the memories tied to it behind him).

 

 

But doesn't the context of the statement indicate that the name Sauron is meant in any case? As I say above: to me it would seem kind of odd to say (or mean) that Sauron does not generally permit some other name to be spelt or spoken, right after someone says 'S is for Sauron'. 

 

Kyranger wrote the qoute from the book after ArwenLegolas nailed him for not having a proper reference (His second post on this thread. Third post overall.) To paraphrase... Gimli says "S is for Sauron. That is easy to read." to which Legolas states: "Sauron does not use the Elf-runes." Then Aragorn says: "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken."

Galin wrote: "to me it would seem kind of odd to say (or mean) that Sauron does not generally permit some other name to be spelt or spoken, right after someone says 'S is for Sauron'. There are a lot of oddities in the books but I can understand why Sauron wouldn't want to use his proper name. In other words I don't think his minions would casually answer him, "Yo! What up Sauron." I think to use the slanderous term in his presence would assure death. Beside all this, if you read back up the thread a bit, I'm pretty much echoing Galin's findings.  Now that I read them again it looks like I copied Galin's homework!  Ach!  Highschool never ends.  Here I thought I was scrambling to unsurface something grandiose.  Oh well that kind of deep research is to be expected amongst the fine members of this forum.  So there's got to be something to it all.

The mouth of Sauron probably used the name because that was the name used most widely in all of Middle earth and would be conveyed quickly and inspire fear amongst his enemy. Somebody's got to tell me if I'm totally confusing the topic here...

Besides that, couldn't we make the following statements:

Sauron = Mairon

Devil= Lucifer?

-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Friday 16th of September 2011 01:55:05 AM

Indeed Bear. Both colorful and spot on!

The Orcs weren't lettered creatures and the symbol of the Great Eye was more than enough scribing for them. "What news from Mordor my Lord? What does the eye command." to take a quote from the movies. Cheers my friend!

Mr.Baggins,

I LOVE IT !!!

To blather on more here: I don't think Aragorn meaning the name Sauron in itself is odd, as that fits the context of trying to figure out the rune. I mean, I think it would be a bit odd if Aragorn was referring to another name besides Sauron here -- so I think Sauron's 'real name' is basically beside the point in any case.

In other words, if Aragorn meant: and he doesn't allow his right name -- as in Mairon or some other name (a name that none of the other people he is speaking to would care much about at the moment) -- to be spelt or spoken, well then that would be a bit 'off the point' here, because if Sauron isn't his 'right name' -- again in this context -- then what real bearing does this statement have in figuring out what the S-rune stands for?

To my mind Aragorn must mean 'Sauron' in this instance, and the argument about whether Sauron can be said to be the Dark Lord's 'right name' is simply a small can of worms that Tolkien probably didn't think too much about; which admittedly is a bit odd, considering this is JRR Tolkien. 

What is a 'right name' if it's not an original name, or 'true name'? Of all people surely Tolkien knew that Sauron was not originally called Sauron, and that the meaning was not exactly nice. Did Sauron yet himself adopt this name despite its negative meaning? Possibly; and names have a way of becoming names no matter what they mean too. But in the end I think Tolkien could have worded this better to avoid the question itself.

Just like the other can of worms Tolkien either missed or let slide here: that an S-rune should stand for Saruman! S cannot stand for Saruman,as that name was not known to the characters within the story. Within the conceit, Saruman is a translated name, so the real name it translates 'must' coincidentally begin with this sound!

It 'must' because 'Sauron' is a name the characters would actually know, thus the rune concerned must truly be an S-rune. Did one of Saruman's real names begin with an S? Not Curumo nor Curunir, which are both Elvish in any case.

Well it's still possible, but Tolkien is mixing things a bit here: the name in question might begin with an S, but the full name being actually Saruman would be very very... ahem concidental (which Tolkien had already implied with the name Orthanc! having a meaning both in Old English and Elvish!)

Well, what I'm pointing out is that Curunir can't have used the name 'Saruman', just as Samwise was not actually called Samwise (Samwise means 'Half-wise' but he was actually called Banazir)

'Saruman' is an Old English construction, a language that had not arisen in Middle-earth during this period, and would not arise until many many years later. Actually the Old English names in the book (Eowyn, Theoden) are not imagined as the actual names of these people or places (again Orthanc aside here, for example) -- they merely represent some other unknown names in the original Red Book.

Just like 'Gandalf' being Old Norse: this wasn't heard nor spoken by Gandalf nor any other character alive in Frodo's day. Old Norse was another language of the future, from the perspective of the characters in the story.

So here the S-rune is correct, because Sauron was a real name spoken back in Frodo's Day. But no one said 'Saruman', or could have, as the modern translator (who knows Old English) has used this to represent some actual name used in Curunir's time. 

I'm sorry, are these not the names in the lord of the rings? It seems as though Gandalf and Saruman were their common names in the tale...

Well these are the names Tolkien put in the books, but not the actual names any of the characters would have used back in the imagined time the characters are speaking.

The Red Book was written in Westron, with smatterings of other languages in there as well, like Sindarin for example. The characters actually said Mithrandir (Sindarin) but no one said 'Gandalf' -- this is Old Norse and no one spoke Old Norse in Middle-earth. They couldn't, as it hadn't been 'invented' yet (it was still a language that would arise in the future, many years after the Fourth Age began). 

None of the Hobbits spoke English or Old English of course, nor Old Norse. See: Appendix F On Translation

Another example: Merry's real name was Kalimac not 'Meriadoc', and Saruman's real name in Westron is unknown: he was actually called Curumo or Curunir 'way back then', as these are Elvish names and Elvish was a language that still existed when the Hobbits were imagined to have been alive. 

But again, not Saruman. The Hobbits were long dead before Old English became a living language in the World, and the name Saruman, derived from Old English, would have had no meaning to them.

Huan the great hound wrote: If Tolkien used those names in the books, then that is their intended names. Regardless of the origins. Correct me if I'm wrong but if Tolkien had intended something else, he would have writen something else. 

 

But he did write something else

 

It is Tolkien who explained in Appendix F that Sam was really called Ban (Banazir), and that Merry was really named Kali (Kalimac), including that Old English was used to translate the actual language of the Rohirrm (Old English is not their actual language), similar to the way the Old Norse dwarf-names are merely translations.

 

And externally, it's Tolkien who noted that Balin's tomb had landed him in some 'absurdities' -- the absurdity being that none of the translated names should appear on the actual tomb.

 

Moreover it makes sense. Tolkien was very interested in languages of course, and he had set the period of the War of the Ring before the rise of languages like Old English and Old Norse. Thus he realized that a name like Gandalf makes sense as a translation, as it means 'Staff-elf' ('magic-staff-elf' more technically)' in Old Norse, a language that didn't exist when the Hobbits were alive.

 

So yes 'Gandalf' and 'Saruman' are in the modern translation -- that is, the book in Modern English that we read today -- but Tolkien's conceit is that these names are not in the Red Book however, the original work and its ancient copies.

 

Of course, the external truth is that Tokien just borrowed Gandalf from an Old Norse text and popped it into The Hobbit without worrying about such things at the time. But later he wanted a more realistic approach, and not only explained the Old Norse names as translations, but added Old English into the mix, for example.

 

Many Elf-names hail from Sindarin and Quenya words --but it was 'absurd' to have an Old English name exist years and years before the language ever existed! JRRT even went so far as to imply the Old English-like runes in The Hobbit simply represent the real runes of the time period.

  

Anyway all I'm saying is that sometimes even JRRT forgot his own conceit, which ended up in some 'absurdities' or 'amazing coincidences' shall we say. This example is not really a huge error, because the only coincidence that needs explaining here is that the real name which Saruman represents also begins with an S.

 

That's certainly possible. Maybe Tolkien realized this and thought it 'possible enough' so he let it stand. He arguably did forget with Orthanc however -- because the whole word is involed in that example. 

 

Or he let Orthanc slide too, so he could have his fun!?