Hi im new too this, and was just asking wether anyone else finds it hard to see hurin killing 70 trolls singlehanded at the end of the Nirneath Arnoediad?
-- Edited by Turambar on Sunday 17th of January 2010 07:49:32 PM
That is actually a debatable subject. Although many people say Hurin killed 70 trolls, I don't think the text supports that. It says that he uttered a cry each time he killed and that his axe was black with blood from the troll-guard of Gothmog, but it also says that the orcs groped at him and he hewed off their hands until he was finally overcome.
I would have to have the passage quoted in full to confirm this and I can't find my book at the moment.
PS: I also heard it was the blood of the trolls that eventually withered Hurin's axe - troll blood was supposedly very hot.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him off to Angband with mockery.' The Silmarillion
In The Grey Annals it was said concerning Húrin that: 'Then he cast aside his shield and wielded his axe two-handed; and it is sung that in that last stand he himself slew anhundred of the Orcs. But they took him alive at last...' JRRT
Similarly one hundred Orcs in Tolkien's earlier Quenta Silmarillion (HME V).
Possibly Tolkien reduced the number of the slain, which had been 100 (orcs), to 70 enemies -- maybe now the slain are orcs and trolls combined -- Tolkien introducing 'some' Trolls, however many, to this part of the tale.
-- Edited by Galin on Monday 18th of January 2010 06:21:01 AM
Of course that's just my opinion... but 100 orcs is one thing, 70 trolls another.
That's a lot of trolls to guard Gothmog, never mind to be slain by the admittedly mighty Hurin (even if in song). Although as Glorfindel notes, not all agree and rather think seventy trolls is meant.
Galin I found your quotes very helpful. I rather doubt Gothmog had a guard of 70 trolls, I think rather Hurin killed a combined 70 trolls and orcs in his last effort. I don't know how many trolls there were but it seems unlikely to me that so many were dedicated to protecting Gothmog. Or that they could be slain with a single axe blow from Hurin.
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
It would seem that Gothmog would not need a 70 head troll guard, being a Balrog. Maybe he was unable to see clearly in the bright sunlight, being normally below ground. Maybe they were there as a safeguard in case he could not see. But if you think about it. In Gematria the number 70 is an absolute. Also the number 7 is the number for G-D, so in his arrogance Gothmog was trying to say that he was a sort of G-D, after all, Maiar were Ainu and are considered Angelic beings, saying he was above mere humans, beside maybe his inability to see in the light. But all of this is just some conjecture.
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Just read your post and saw your reasoning behind Gothmog's sight. But I have to say that your idea about the number seventy to be right in some ways. Perhaps Tolkien being a christian man made the number that Hurin killed 70 for the reasons you listed. But remember, 70 is the number that Hurin killed. There may have been more the 70 bodygaurds for Gothmog. I doubt it but I'm just saying that the number 70 does not relate to them at all
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
I think the citations above do show Hurin's deeds of surpassing valor that day. But he still wasn't able to resist Morgoth's influence completely - his vision was distorted by Morgoth's lies, mingled with truth as always. I guess very few could escape Morgoth uncorrupted, and Men very unlikely.
As to the Numenoreans taking Sauron hostage... Sauron indeed didn't feel like battling with them, but escape he sure could - he simply saw a better opportunity for revenge and destruction of Numenor. He underestimated the wrath of Eru of course (who wouldn't? Seems an overreaction to me) or he wouldn't have lost his body (fana I think it is called).
The Numenoreans did get gifts - long lives yes, but I was impressed that they could mentally communicate with their horses. And they valued their gifts too little. Just like ordinary humans (not superhumans...)
