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Topic: Did the father of darves have free spirit or not ?

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 11, 2009
Did the father of darves have free spirit or not ?

Hi

Rumbum pum

Ok so Aule got fed up of vvaiting....and made his ovvn children....having not the full appreciation of ERU's plan for the first born.....his efforts vvere...crude...stunted...clumsy


So here's the question.......Eru vvasn't pleased and told yer guy Aule to destroy them...........but they fliched!

It seems that Aule created beings of free thought.........

If Aule did it, did Melkor ?


-- Edited by Filli on Friday 11th of September 2009 11:08:24 PM

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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 12, 2009
The Balrog seemed to but then they started out as maia. Higher formes of being then Men, Dwarf, or Elf. But then, Aule intention was not to mock Eru or His creation or so he said. Melkor wanted nothing more then to rule, control, be worshipped but he had no love for anything he did. Everything he did was in mockery of the good things that Eru created. I don't think Melkor wanted his creations to have free will. They were there to serve him and him along and nothing more.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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The shrinking from the hammer was a sign that Iluvatar had intervened, and he told Aule: 'Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices?' 


And etc (Of Aule And Yavanna) smile

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Yes, the Dwarves were given independence by Eru during the conversation he had with Aule, it seems.

However, I get a bit confused by one thing. Sometimes it indicates that the gift of making things new and independent lies with Eru alone, presumably using the Flame Imperishable, and yet other times the text isolates Melkor from the others, saying that the ability to make new independent things was taken away from him since his rebellion in the Music of the Ainur, and thus indicating that the ability should still be available to the other Valar.

So which is it? Can the Valar make independent things, and Melkor not? Or can't they all?

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Think maybe Galin could dig up some obscure quote to help with that one, Bilbo.

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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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After the Dwarves "shrunk back from the hammer" and Aule seemed surprised didn't Eru laugh and asked Aule way he was so? Didn't Eru then say that they now had the knowledge of fear because of Aule's own repentance in being impatent and making the Dwarf and Eru had now adopted them as His own children. Then they had be put into their deep sleep. Could this be the secret...that Eru had to give any creation other then his own validation by recognizing their existance and making them His own?

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Sep 29, 2009
Yeah !

Anorlas...you get me !

Very Abrahamic isn't it.....asking the father to sacrifice the children, yet at the last moment stay the blovv. The act of total obediance being revvarded.

I'm contradicting myself , vvith another recent post.

Eru has a plan....have faith in the plan.

Yet here vve see Eru , reacting...as if this vvasn't in the plan....hovv there vvill be strife betvveen the tvvo children..one by his design

Hmmmm gods eh.....slippery as eels

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Yes, I would say that Tolkien drew the inspiration from the Abraham story. Its too similar. However I think in the Abraham story, Abraham is asked by an Angel on behalf of God to sacrifice his son, whereas Aule gets this idea himself.

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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All,
While Tolkien admits that his faith strongly had impact on what he wrote he tells us over and over again that he did not write The Lord of the Rings as ANY direct allegory...and that any allegory seen comes to being because it is implied by the reader and from the reader's life...not Tolkien's pen.


God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to test Abraham's faith and obedience...not as punishment for hubris as between Aule and Eru...because Aule (of his own free will) created dwarves in his impatience with Eru...
If you are looking for an biblical allegorical parallel look to the story of Sara, (Abraham's wife) impatient and lacking faith in God, gives her handmaiden, Hagar, in sexual congress to Abraham to provide him with an heir, Ishmael. This creates all sorts of problems when Sara, past menarche, gives birth to God's promised child, Isaac.
What happens is Abraham, who loves Ishmael and Isaac, is forced to banish and abandon Hagar and Ishmael into the desert.
But God doesn't abandon Ishmael, and blesses him and promises to make him the father of a great nation. (as God does to Abraham through Isaac)
Ishmael's heritage  becomes a people today known as the followers of Islam.
And Isaac...not sacrificed...becomes the ancestor of the Jews.


I think reaching into any of Tolkien's works for a direct allegorical parallel is spitting into the wind and wondering why you have spit in your eye...
So saying however, I think that looking where Tolkien found his inspiration, the Bible has to be included...but not directly...and not without including the myths and sacred literature of the Celts, the Norse, the Germans, and the dozens of other mythical traditions which are also parts of Tolkien's inspirational base...


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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 2, 2009
Yip

Your right bear....vve all vent to sunday school...apart from LOTR the next book vve all knovv about is the bible...so vve vvould understandably dravv comparisons.

Hovv about the connections betvveen The children of Hurin and Green eggs and Ham ?

I DON'T LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM!..said Turin

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 2, 2009
lmao! What? Green Eggs and Ham?

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Date: Oct 4, 2009
You've lost me utterly with that one Filli! (which isn't anything new).

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Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!

Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Oct 5, 2009
I mentioned that most of us have read or have been exposed to the bible, so it vvas likely that vve vvould find comparisons vvith the LOTR.

The only other book I could think of that vve have all read vvas......

Dr Suess...Green Eggs and Ham.


Or did I dream it.......hmmmmm...hard to tell

HEY HO MERRY OL PUMP

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Date: Oct 6, 2009
Filli,
I got it...Cat in the Hat...
Maybe we could add film like "Snow White"
I mean there are dwarves after all...(even if they look like hobbits)
Maybe add Shakespeare...
Frodo at the cracks of doom"...to be or not to be?"  The wearer of the Ring...
Maybe Sesame Street...Big Bird as Frodo...Cookie Monster as Smeagol...Oscar the Grouch as the Mouth of Sauron (no offense mos!)

Alas my poor brain is in shock from these images...

Think we should stick to...I don't know what in the hell we should stick to...
But once again dear Filli you have me laughing until I shake!
Bear


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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

 
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