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Topic: Could Frodo

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Hobbit from Hobbiton - Rank 4
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Date: Aug 22, 2009
Could Frodo

Hey ho

Could Frodo have "commanded" the Nazgul ...at eathertop on eraing the ring


my  key isn't orking...hmmmm



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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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Maybe if Frodo had had the strength of spirit to over ride the hold that Sauron had upon them he might have. But they had been under the control of Sauron for so long...and it was he that controlled their wills that it would have been difficult even if Frodo had been so corrupted as to have been able to match Sauron's evil which he was not. Sauron's will was within the Ring and it was trying to get back to him. The Ring would have deserted Frodo at some point just as it had deserted Isildur and Gollum.

-- Edited by Anorlas on Monday 31st of August 2009 04:10:21 AM

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I think it is said somewhere that Frodo did not have the power to gain control over the Ring. Only the great ones could do that. Like Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel etc. Then the Nazgul should in theory serve them.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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JRRT explained that, under Weathertop, Frodo had acted merely in fear and wished to use the Ring's power of invisibility. In letter 246 (1963) he compares this to a theoretical confrontation with the Eight at the Sammath Naur (The Lord of the Nazgul having been reduced to impotence):

'He [Frodo] had grown since then [Weathertop]. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?'

'Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand -- laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.'

Tolkien goes on to say that Frodo needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring, before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills, and that even so, for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem 'good' to him, and to be for the benefit of others beside himself.

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Also, and this is just a by thought, doesn't Gandalf say that through himself the ring would wield a power too great to be controlled? Your key being the wording, the "ring" would wield a power, not he (Gandalf) would wield a power. Isn't that the whole idea. One doesn't use the ring but the ring uses them. Something along the lines of "It has but one master and he does not share power, " is coming to mind.

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Loremaster Elf of Mirkwood - Rank 4
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In the Fellowship of the Ring in chapter intitled "The Shadow of The Past" Gandalf says this:"A Ring of Power looks after itself,Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its kee
per never abandons it."   "It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him."

 
Gandalf goes on:"There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean....."

 The quote you were refering to lomoduin in the paraphrase "Gandalf say that through himself the Ring would wield a power too great to be controlled?" Is from this same chapter of the Fellowship: "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly."

Even Galadriel  in the chapter "The Mirror of Galadriel" says:"The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stand or falls."
  
She also tells Frodo that because he is Ring-bearer and had "borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is now keener. You have preceived my thought more clearly then many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger?"

  So it seems that the Ring serves only Sauron and itself. It is fully evil and noone....not Gandalf nor Galadriel could, in the end, resist its evil and they would become worse then Sauron ever was.

 


-- Edited by Anorlas on Saturday 29th of August 2009 01:40:38 AM

-- Edited by Anorlas on Saturday 29th of August 2009 01:55:08 AM



-- Edited by Anorlas on Saturday 29th of August 2009 02:02:02 AM

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Ah lomoduin, funny you should say that!

I debated whether or not to paraphrase JRRT above, or to quote him. I chose to quote some, paraphrase the rest -- but also debated what to include in my paraphrase -- and almost included... well, you will see if you simply compare my last post to the quote:

'He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills.'

Even with this, full context is best (if one has Letters), but your statement made me remember leaving that part out... not that it wasn't important, but this is what happens sometimes when posting, even a relatively close paraphrase might not always tell the full story!

smile

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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If the Nazgul are slaves to Sauron's will, would it make a difference as to whom controlled the ring? Would they not be enslaved to Sauron's will and not to the will of the ring bearer?

If the ring bearer changes, then so does the allegiance of the Nazgul? Not sure about that, but I would think they remain loyal to Sauron. Maybe I'm confusing myself?!

Just a thought.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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That was actually discussed in the book, if memory serves. Providing the wielder of the Ring had sufficient strength of will to wield it properly, the Nazgul would indeed be under their control. Suffice to say Frodo did not qualify. But the likes of Galadriel, Saruman and Gandalf would be able to.

"Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear."

There is an applicable quote, but there is another one I can't seem to find specifically regarding the Nazgul and their service to the Ring, whoever wears it. (providing they can wield it, as I said.)

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Thank you, Mouth of Sauron.

I will have to find that passage again. So, the Nazgul would be enslaved to the new Dark Lord, should Sauron be overthrown. If, say, Sauron was to be exiled, would they still hold to his will? I know, this is unlikely, but thought I'd ask your opinion.

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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I was under the belief that the Nazgul were slaves to the One Ring, this being both where the majority of Sauron's spirit lay and the means by which the Ringwraiths were enslaved, for the One Ring controlled their own Rings of Power. In theory therefore the controller of the One Ring is the controller of the Ringwraiths.

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Valar
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I was under the belief that the Nazgul were slaves to the One Ring, this being both where the majority of Sauron's spirit lay and the means by which the Ringwraiths were enslaved, for the One Ring controlled their own Rings of Power. In theory therefore the controller of the One Ring is the controller of the Ringwraiths.~Bilbo Baggins

Sauron was able to keep control of the Ringwraiths, even without the One, because he took possession of the 9 rings.  That way if he ever lost the One, the Nazgul would still be bound to serve him.  So, they weren't slaves to the One Ring per se, they were slaves to the "Lord of the Rings."  And even if he lost it, Sauron was still the Ring's master.  It would take somebody about as powerful as Sauron to "master" the Ring, which is quite different from being a Ring-bearer such as Frodo or Bilbo.

What you can see is even if Frodo and Bilbo have possession of the One, they definitely are not in control of it.  They simply bear it, and in order to get control of the Ringwraiths, one must get control of the Ring.

I hope that answers what you were looking for...
smile


-- Edited by Lord Lórien on Sunday 3rd of October 2010 04:52:34 AM

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Do mine eyes deceive me? A wight has arisen the bones of a long lost warrior!biggrin.gif

Been a long time, Lord Lorien, glad to see you have found your way back to us!

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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Lord Lorien, nice to meet you.  I look forward to your posts.

Yokyo, here is one answer for "Could Frodo?" staight from the book.


"I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, 'a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them?'
'You have not tried,' she said. 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?' she asked turning again to Sam.
'No, Lady,' he answered. 'To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your finger. But if you'll pardon my speaking out, I think my master was right. I wish you'd take his Ring. You'd put things to rights. You'd stop them digging up the gaffer and turning him adrift. You'd make some folk pay for their dirty work.'
'I would,' she said. 'That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas! We will not speak more of it. Let us go!'
(The Lord Of The Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter VII ~  "The Mirror of Galadriel,"  pg 366)


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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Thank you Bear. Although the text clarifies that the Ring will indeed give Frodo, or the bearer, power and the ability to see that which is hidden. But it does not clarify if the will of the Nazgul/Ringraiths will then be bound to the new wearer. I suppose I am just thinking about it as a matter of "loyalty" for lack of a better word. Can power force them to change allegiance? Sounds like a silly question! I think I need to re think this and if need be, think of a better way to put my question into written word!

Lord Lorien - I can see your point. That's more along the terms of what I was thinking.

I'm here to learn! Thank you all for being so sharing!!!

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Loyalty isn't the right word, as their own will had been bent by corruption and force to that of another and during the late Third Age they had been reduced to little more than satellites. But, as seems to be the consensus, their ultimate bondage is to the One Ring and if one were to take control of it (they would need to be powerful) the Nazgul would bend to the new masters will.

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Glorfindel1235 - yep. That's why I said for lack of a better word. Re-reading some suggested passages also clarifies it's the will of the ring they are bound to, not Sauron alone.

Thanks!

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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This is just a thought, not Gandalf said that through his ring would use too much power, be controlled? The key thing is the wording of the "Ring" will be in power, rather than he (Gandalf) will be in power...

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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     The Ring is Sauron, "It has no other master." (To Quote Aragorn in the Film LOTR by P.J.) Those who would don the Ring would unwittingly inherit the power that each person or bearer, as a vassal, could contain. Although, in most cases, the Ring would be vastly more powerful still. It's will is Sauron's will.

     I think Gandalf would fall to the power of the Ring, as he willingly admitted to Frodo. Although he was a Maiar, he was instructed to contest the will and doings of Sauron without matching him power for power. I think Gandalf's vow to do the will of the Valar physically changed his level of power and he was slightly downgraded to Istari. I also believe that Saruman was willing to abandon his vow and try to utilize the Ring and that would have been a grievous occurrence, but he also would have fallen, although, I don't know if he could possibly find a way to reverse the station of Istari and assume his level of Maiar (through the Ring) once more.
     J.K. Rowling definitely utilized Tolkein's brilliant idea for an artifact to contain the essence of a powerful character (evident in the Half-blood Prince). Rowling, who unashamedly ripped the concept from the pages from Professor Tolkein works simply named the artifact used to contain the spirit or life-essence of a powerful character, through the use of forgotten or forbidden arts, a Horcrux. Despite the multiple artifacts in the Harry Potter series, the peril factor was greatly diminished, flaccid and less threatening than Tolkein's One Ring. Point goes to Professor Tolkein.

Galadriel, Elrond as well as Cirdan would have stood no chance although they would've easily outlasted Frodo whenit comes to wielding the Ring of Power. Although the elves (the formentioned in particular) wise and firstborn, they weren't even close to commanding power as were any of the Istari. When Gandalf said that Frodo would need a lot of time to learn how to command the will of others, that was a generous comment indeed! One that can only be said (without jest) by the long-lived. We know Smeagol had the Ring for 500 years and because he was wicked to begin with he went right down the tubes. Frodo wouldn't have fared much better in the long run. He would've been another wraith and ultimately a thrall to Sauron according to his quality.
The Nazgul wouldn't be commanded by any bearer because they obeyed the will of the Ring and that will belonged to its Master, Sauron, that *@#*%!



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 06:31:41 PM



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 09:51:06 PM



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Tuesday 16th of August 2011 09:53:32 PM

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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I'm not so sure Jaidoprism7. It certainly says that the Ring can only bring destruction, but I think it also says that another person of sufficient will could control the Ring for their own ends, ultimately replacing Sauron as the 'Dark One'. I'm not sure exactly how independent the Ring and Sauron are.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Glorfindel is probably remembering this explanation from one of JRRT's letters.

 

'But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn.'

'The Ring of Sauron is only one of the various mythical treatments of the placing of one's life, or power, in some external object, which is thus exposed to capture or destruction with disastrous results to oneself. If I were to 'philosophize' this myth, or at least the Ring of Sauron, I should say it was a mythical way of representing the truth that potency (or perhaps rather potentiality) if it is to be exercised, and produce results, has to be externalized and so as it were passes, to a greater or less degree, out of one's direct control. A man who wishes to exert 'power' must have subjects, who are not himself. But he then depends on them.'

Sorry for the length but it's interesting I think.



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Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9
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Thank you Galin.

I wonder if the same explanation might apply to the Silmarils, the Nauglamir necklace, or certain of the swords?



-- Edited by Bear on Thursday 18th of August 2011 06:33:03 PM

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Hobbits of The Shire - Rank 1
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The Idea of being able to place one's own power into an object kind of represents the idea of a personal life force, like chi or something

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Tower Guard of Minas Tirith - Rank 4
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I think Galin's quote really sums it up on this one. Thank you for taking the time to post that Galin. It was most helpful

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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I will ponder your words Galin

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Tower Guard of Minas Tirith - Rank 4
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The last part of the first text from Galin's quote is most interesting to me. I've heard many people say that Aragorn could have with held the ring from Sauron but Tolkien very clearly states that no mortal could. Not even Aragorn. I'll be quoting this very letter to some other people if the conversation ever comes up again :)

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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
 
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