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ArwenLegolas

Tom Bombadil

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Date: Jul 13, 2008

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I got this PM asking me the question below. Any answers for this new member [QUOTE] Excuse me.. Do you think that maybe the stories of Tolkien shoud be true? I believe that there are a lot of proofs that says that some stories, characters, names or languages of Tolkien could be true. do you know something about? wanna hear something about? thanks..[/QUOTE] __________________ Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Olorin/Gandalf

Chief Maiar

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Well, from the language aspect, they are true, because the languages exist, Tolkien "created" them though. Does anyone else understand this question as "is there a possibility these things really happened/existed"? __________________ *...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.*

Bear

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9

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Arwen Legolas & Olorin/Gandalf,
This new members question has a huge potential to open some large existential topics. And it certainly can lead us all to look at how our involvement with Tolkiens work influences us in the real world. It also us leads to examine the depth psychological impact Tolkien has on our collective psyche. Lastly, and in my opinion the most significant, what was the intent and perspective of the new member who asked these questions?

ArwenLegolas
I got this PM asking me the question below. Any answers for this new member?

[QUOTE]
Excuse me Do you think that maybe the stories of Tolkien should be true? I believe that there are a lot of proofs that says that some stories, characters, names or languages of Tolkien could be true. Do you know something about? Want to hear something about?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > NEW Member Question >ArwenLegolas > July 13th, 2008

Olorin/Gandalf
Well, from the language aspect, they are true, because the languages exist, Tolkien "created" them though. Does anyone else understand this question as "is there a possibility these things really happened/existed"?
Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > NEW Member Question > Olorin/Gandalf > July 13th, 2008

At the age of 4 my daughter asked me if Walt Disneys Little Mermaid was real. Her activities at the time were playing with her Ariel doll, wearing a Supergirl nightgown, and in playing The Evil Queen in our community little theatres production of Snow White.
Needless to say my response was one of caution.
My world view allowed that Ariel was not real.
My daughters would not. Not then anyway.

Today, after reading thousands of books on psychological symbolism, and hundreds of books on mythology, I can tell you that in our culture today the Little Mermaid is as real as this keyboard. Every time a young woman gives up the mermaid tail of virginity for the painful legs of becoming an active sexual being the mermaid lives.

Joseph Campbell in his book, Myths To Live By (Viking Press, April 1972),writes;
I was sitting the other day at a lunch counter that I particularly enjoy, when a youngster about twelve years old, arriving with his school satchel, took the place at my left. Beside him came a younger little man, holding the hand of his mother, and those two took the next seats. All gave their orders, and, while waiting, the boy at my side said, turning his head slightly to the mother, Jimmy wrote a paper today on the evolution of man, and Teacher said he was wrong, that Adam and Eve were our first parents.
My Lord! I thought. What a teacher!
The lady three seats away then said, Well, Teacher was right. Our first parents were Adam and Eve.
What a mother for a twentieth-century child!
The youngster responded, Yes, I know, but this was a scientific paper. And for that, I was ready to recommend him for a distinguished-service medal from the Smithsonian Institution.
The mother, however, came back with another, Oh those scientists! she said angrily, Those are only theories.
And he was up to that one too. Yes, I know, was his cool and calm reply; but they have been actualized; they found bones. (Campbell, J., Myths To Live By, Chapter 1 The Impact of Science on Myth pages 1-2, - Viking Press 1972)

Campbell goes on to discuss the historical evolution of knowledge revealed from Sumerian cuneiform texts though Greek and Chinese writings and forms of education, and the cultural adoption of empirical rationalizations and the current methods of analyzing data to produce evidence to support theory.
In this discourse he also laments our loss and how we need to re-create ancient legends in our daily lives to release human potential.

I believe that there are a lot of proofs that says that some stories, characters, names or languages of Tolkien could be true. Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > NEW Member Question >ArwenLegolas (for the new member) > July 13th, 2008.

I have come across many of the names that Tolkien uses in other cultural myths and stories by other authors. The themes of incest and hubris and heroic quests and ultimate good and evil are in so many different cultural myths; east, west, and the new world (north and south hemispheres).
Comparative cultural studies have demonstrated beyond question that similar mythic tales are to be found in every quarter of this earth. (Campbell, J., Myths To Live By, Chapter 1 The Impact of Science on Myth page 7, - Viking Press 1972)

There are many facts, empirically documented uses, of names, languages, mythological themes (heroic quest, shield maiden, brotherhood rivalries, lost lands buried beneath the sea, rebellious super beings, fallen angels, star crossed lovers, etc., etc., etc.) that become the facts of many nations. (Britain-King Arthur, Germany - Siegfried, China - Sun Yet Sen, United States - Paul Bunyan, and many, many, more)
These are not just myths. These are real beings whose exploits have been romanticized, exaggerated, mythologized, and internalized by the real citizens who exist in the world and in this forum.

Well, from the language aspect, they are true, because the languages exist, Tolkien "created" them though. Does anyone else understand this question as "is there a possibility these things really happened/existed"?
Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > NEW Member Question > Olorin/Gandalf > July 13th, 2008

And it certainly can lead us all to look at how our involvement with Tolkiens work influences us in the real world. (sic)
In my life, in a real world, my ambition to live my life by the heroic principals ascribed to Gandalf, Aragorn, and Beren are parallel with the principals I strive to maintain in my numinous experience of my faith. I want my home to be like Rivendell, and my neighbors Elrond & Galadriel.
One can existentially argue that faith is not real.
But I challenge any one to make sense of this world without one. (please let us not argue that believing in scientific theory is not faith - send me a quark, or let me hold an electron, or swim in a primordial sea.)

So to our new member I say yes, Tolkien is realbut in a depth psychological way.
His work really touches in heart, mind, and spirit. His work fills a space in us.
Read what my fellow forum writers have said.
Look at the depth of The Might, Glorfindel 1235, and mouth of sauron. Read the compassion of Arwen Legolas and Olorin/Gandalf. Celebrate the playfullness of Sweeper and Bilbo Baggins.
These are just a few of the real contributors to the Forum. There knowledge of Tolkien is vast and inclusive. Yet, in the seeking to learn, they each have embraced the true meaning of humility. (humility being not thinking less of yourself but rather thinking only of yourself less.)

Now that is real!

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Called or uncalled, God is present

Olorin/Gandalf

Chief Maiar

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That was an interesting post, Bear. Thank you! __________________ *...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.*

Gilril

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1

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Good day, dears! Thank you for your words, I am the new member who asked the question above to ArwenLegolas (I did not put it into a forum because in that moment I saw that her was the only member online...). Excuse me for my poor English, I hope youll understand what Im writing!

I agreed you about what you wrote above, and I thanks you again Bear, your topic is very very beautiful!!Im 21, and for sure I dont have your knowledge or wisdom, and thats why Im really interested in this talk. I believe that, whether Adam and Eve were our first parents or whether we come from a long evolution, theres something in everyone of us thats more important than that: we feel love, in all its forms. The life without it is useless, in my opinion. I dont care to know who were my first parents, if my life should be without love; I dont care even to live. So, if its impossible to imagine for me a human being without love because its part of our nature -, I think that the beauty and the goodness are the foundations of the world cause they are its nature. So, I think we are immerse in all this beauty, as we live in this world. And this is above our nature, because we feel love, but we cant mould it, cant create it; it belongs to something of higher, of pure. Then everything thats beauty is also pure, its something of blessed. Tolkiens stories are beauty, so they are blessed. This makes them true, because if Tolkien is the sub-creator of them he tells us something of special that come from the creator; then we should not matter if those facts has really happened, or if Gilfanon waits again into Tavrobel. Tolkien tells us stories that hold love, pity, beauty, kind, so they are true because these feelings really exist into us, they are part of our ordinary life.I agreed you if you think something like this.But my heart is not satisfied.

I think that some stories of Tolkien are more beautiful than the stories of the Bible that speak of the same themes: in my opinion, the Ainulindale is more beautiful than the Genesis. I dont think that the sub-creator (Tolkien) could create something of more beautiful than the Creator (God). So I believe that that stories must be true. Do you think its stupid to believe that Tolkiens stories are really true stories, only because of them beauty? So much people believe in what the Bible says just because they find in this book those feelings that I find in The Silmarillion. Have they something more to propose for support the truly nature of those stories than their faith, their love?

One of the more long religion of the history (maybe the most long?) believed in something that is so close to Tolkiens myths: for the Egyptians, the death was a long journey (by a ship) from the Earth to the Duat, a sort of Heaven; the way they followed was trough the stars: it is so similar to the way that Elves traveled from Middle-Earth to Valinor.Then, in your opinion, an ancient Egyptian could consider Tolkiens myths like something of really true? And if he could, are we to be blind and to not know, or is he just a fool? If I believe in an Angel called Gabriel, he is so different from an Angel called Manwe?

However, my question was: can you tell me something about the discovery of the name of Melkor in an old Apocryphal Gospel, of the name of Earendil in an ancient myth of the North Europe? Do you think that what Edgar Cayce told in a lot of his lectures, about a White group of entities that guard our world, can be connect to the Valar?

I have another (last, I promise!) question: I am curious to know if the name Atalante (The Downfallen, as it appears at the end of the Akallabeth, and that is in Eldarin language I know its useless to remind it to you!) is made up of particular Eldarin words, or is a one-word? There are another Eldarin words with -lante or ata into them? I think is funny that Tolkien chose to connect the origin of the word Atlantis with the Eldarin language! Heres the link between what is considered myth and whats mystery!

Thank you!

May all us remember, someday, when we walked by the Path of Dreams, when we were young, when we got to sleep!!

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Bear

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9

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Gilril,
Welcome. I think you will find the forums are a wonderful place to explore beauty, truth, and what is "real". Nice to meet you.

I found your post interesting and worth reading more than once. The connection between the Egyption river religion and Tolkien's imaginal creation myth does merit further study.

There are some resources outside the forums that can add some depth to your inquiries; C.G. Jung's "Answer to Job" has some good insights as to mankind's relationship with God. It also reveals more about ourselves and the myths we adopt in our personal cosmology.
Michael Meade has a book titled "Men and the Water of Life" that also explores how myths become "real" in our lives.

Inside the forums the "Analytical" group and "General lore" are full of many metaphysical insights that are triggered by Tolkien's works.

Melkor can certainly substitute for "Satan" in many levels of western literature like Dante's "Inferno" or Milton's "Paradise Lost".
Tolkien, being a good Catholic, had read and heard Christian literature and doctrine since he was a child. It must have had an impact consciously and/or unconsciously.
"I think that some stories of Tolkien are more beautiful than the stories of the Bible that speak of the same themes: in my opinion, the Ainulindale is more beautiful than the Genesis."
Me too. But the "scriptures", despite all denominational interpretation, are supposedly there for "reproof and instruction". In many places I find them beautiful; Psalms, The Song of Salomon, Corinthians, The Talmud, The Gospels, the Koran, and a thousand more.
If you find in Tolkien spiritual guidance I won't complain...but a personal caution...I am positive that Tolkien wrote to entertain and not to convert or give spiritual guidance.

But enough.
Welcome and well met. Your insights, posts, and questions are already provoking discussion as well as triggering others to look deeper at what we glean from Tolkien's work.
Great start...I'm sure you will add to the fun!
Bear an Elf-friend

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Gilril

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1

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Date: Jul 21, 2008

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Thank you, bear!

You're right, but I also think that maybe Tolkien wrote not only to entertain, and the fact that what he wrote was part of the most important things of his life is said by the words on his and his wife's grave. I think that he wrote to give us hope too, a little bit; and I think that the Last Battle and the Second Music show this message of hope. At least, I think that when he thought about Ilùvatar he thought about God, and for him was true and very important. So I think that his massage is more deeper.

Thank you very much again!
ps:why am I just a "being that lies with Eru"? I want to come to Rivendell like you!! that's an injustice!!! ah ah ashamed

bye

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Galin

Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5

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Date: Jul 21, 2008

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Gilril wrote:
'... However, my question was: can you tell me something about the discovery of the name of Melkor in an old Apocryphal Gospel, of the name of Earendil in an ancient myth of the North Europe? ...'

'I have another (last, I promise!) question: I am curious to know if the name Atalante (The Downfallen, as it appears at the end of the Akallabeth, and that is in Eldarin language I know its useless to remind it to you!) is made up of particular Eldarin words, or is a one-word? There are another Eldarin words with -lante or ata into them? I think is funny that Tolkien chose to connect the origin of the word Atlantis with the Eldarin language! Heres the link between what is considered myth and whats mystery!'

Regarding Melkor and Earendil, Tolkien was certainly inspired by the latter name as found in the Primary World, particularly in Cynewulf's Crist (Anglo-Saxon earendel).

Tolkien noted that he was: 'struck by the great beauty of this word (or name)' and thought that its form strongly suggested that it was in origin a proper name and not a common noun (borne out by related forms in other Germanic languages). 'To my mind the A-S uses* seem plainly to indicate that it was a star presaging the dawn (at any rate in English tradition): that is what we now call Venus...'

Of course Tolkien found a way to make the name Elvish (Quenya), and give it meaning in his invented languages. In the same letter (from which I took the earlier statements) Tolkien explained a bit about the matter of inspiration and Elvish words and names, including:

'The 'source' if any, provided solely the sound-sequence (or suggestion for its stimulus) and its purport in the source is totally irrelevant except in the case of Earendil; see below' JRRT 1967 drafts for a letter to Mr. Rang

This letter denied any connection between Moria and the biblical land of Moriah, for one example, externally or internally. 'Internally there is no conceivable connexion between the mining of the Dwarves, and the story of Abraham. I utterly repudiate any such significances and symbolisms. My mind does not work that way; and (in my view) you are led astray by a purely fortuitous similarity, more obvious in spelling than in speech, which cannot be justified from the real intended significance of my story.'

This draft to Mr. Rang (the full letter of course) is important to discovering Tolkien's mind regarding the complicated question of linguistic inspiration and Primary World source, and although JRRT is speaking generally here, to my mind we must be quite wary when considering the matter.

On the examination of words and other linguistic features in Tolkien's Secondary-World languages that have Primary-World cognates and analogues, see the column Words And Devices published in various issues of Vinyar Tengwar. The column is by Patrick Wynne and Carl Hostetter.

Concerning Atalantie we have a very interesting and mysterious case. JRRT noted: 'It is a curious chance that the stem talat used in Q[uenya] for 'slipping, sliding, falling down', of which atalantie is a normal (in Q) noun-formation, should so much resemble Atlantis' (JRRT, Letters 1964). Related forms seem to predate Tolkien's discovery that an 'Atlantis like' isle was going to be part of Middle-earth history, making Tolkien's dream of the Great Wave all the more interesting.

On the word itself, we appear to have nasal infixion here. Patrick Wynne is part of the Editorial Team currently working on JRRT's linguistic papers: '... With nasal infixion this would yield a stem *taranta-: compare the manner of nasal infixion in such structurally similar words as atalante 'the Downfallen' (IX:247), Atalantie 'Downfall' (L:347) < talta- 'slip, slide down, collapse' (MC:223).' Patrick Wynne (from a message to the lambengolmor discussion group)

In the Etymologies at least (basically written in the late 1930s), Tolkien seemed to note that the a-prefix here signified 'complete'. As for Atalantie, the ending is perhaps comparable to the examples voronwa 'enduring' and voronwie 'endurance' -- where the latter seems to be a noun by comparison (this example also hails from the text called Etymologies -- so in any event, note how I'm 'jumping about', as the letter quoted above was written much later).

If we pressed ideas together, so to speak, we might be looking at (noting stem talat as in the letter): A-talant-ie but that's not the same as Tolkien himself explaining the full construction in 1964 of course.

If Mr. Hostetter posts again in this forum, he is far more qualified (than I am) to comment on these words (he is another member of the Editorial Team along with Mr Wynne), but that's what I dug up anyway.

-- Edited by Galin at 21:36, 2008-07-21

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Bear

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9

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Date: Jul 21, 2008

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Galin, Your scholarship is amazing. I struggle with the names (especially their evolution) and the invented languages. Is there a primer for beginners to understand these inventions? And what language belongs to who and when? Your help would be appreciated. Thank you, Bear an Elf-friend __________________ Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit *Called or uncalled, God is present*

Gilril

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1

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Date: Jul 21, 2008

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Thank you Galin!!!! you made me very happy!!! maybe I also fell in love with you!!! bye __________________

Galin

Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5

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Thank you Bear (love the name by the way). As for books and websites that might get you started, I often suggest taking a look at:

http://www.elvish.org/resources.html

A fairly long list, admittedly! An easy enough place to start might be the Appendix to the 1977 Silmarillion, or, one could even begin just by looking at words and names published in The Lord of the Rings itself. I am interested in Tolkien's nomenclature and the languages, and have been dabbling for years, but am in no way an expert like Carl Hostetter or Patrick Wynne.

Regarding what languages belong to whom and when, if you mean just the Elven-tongues, generally speaking Sindarin or Grey-elven was the living language of all the Eldar we meet in The Lord of the Rings (Tolkien was arguably a little confusing with respect to the Silvan Elvish of Thranduil's Realm). In Frodo's day Quenya had for a long time already become a book language, a language of lore, still spoken or sung by some Elves and Men on certain occasions of course, but it was not a birth tongue of the Eldar in Middle-earth.

If we think of an Elvish language tree, Quenya (brought from West Over Sea by the Noldorin Exiles in the First Age) and Sindarin both ultimately hail from a common ancestor, and all the Elvish tongues theoretically hail from a primitive speech common to all Elves (before any Elvish migration and etc). The changes that follow the historical circumstances, as the Elves migrated and branched out over time, are very interesting but quite complicated, leaving us with various Elvish languages and dialects of course. Tolkien put the most work into Quenya and Sindarin, so we can find out the most about these, along with some details about related dialects.

So, very generally speaking, the West-Elves of Middle-earth speak Sindarin (various dialects in the First Age could be noted), and when the Exiled Noldor came back to Middle-earth they adopted the Grey-elven, even altering names to fit the style and sounds of this new language (also Thingol's edict against the use of Quenya is a factor here of course). That said, we can note a detail like (concerning the chant A Elbereth Gilthoniel): 'The language is Sindarin, but of a variety used by the High Elves (...) marked in high style and verse by the influence of Quenya, which had been originally their normal tongue.' JRRT, The Road Goes Ever On

I could ramble on, and I don't know if I've really spoken to your question all that well, since I just touched on the very general picture; but I would be happy to (try to!) answer any questions on the languages, or any names -- especially names.

That way I get another reason to indulge my interest, and I learn along the way too. Though time (or the lack of it) seems too often a factor.

You're welcome Gilril, hopefully I got close there on atalantie, but I'm sure there are others here who could comment too. Though Tyrhael seems to be absent from these forums these days, for one.

smile

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lomoduin

Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4

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General lore?? I'm astounded by the evident education and deepth of thought in all of the post here. (Incedentally, this is the first group of postings I've read through) I'm inspired and intimidated. Thank you all for your insights. Wow!! __________________ The winds of heaven do not blow gentle.

Bear

Lord Elrond of Rivendell - Rank 9

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lomoduin,
Yep! These folks take their Tolkien serious. But there is lots of room for fun. Just cruise some of the forums and you'll find something that interests you.
I just joined in April 2008. So I can't claim any expertise. But I can attest to being guided and coached until I found a place where I can contribute.
Read what my fellow forum writers have said.
Look at the depth of The Might, Glorfindel 1235, and mouth of sauron. Read the compassion of Arwen Legolas and Olorin/Gandalf. Celebrate the playfulness of Sweeper and Bilbo Baggins. Enjoy the knowledge and willingness to share of Galin.
These are just a few of the contributors to the Forum. There are many more that my poor brain doesnt remember at the moment. (friends please forgive) Their knowledge of Tolkien is vast and inclusive. Yet, in the seeking to learn, they each have embraced the true meaning of humility. (humility being not thinking less of yourself but rather thinking only of yourself less.)
So jump in. The water is fine. Youll find lots of places where your opinion and insights will be welcomed.

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit
Called or uncalled, God is present

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