Ever since I first read Lord of the Rings, one question has been bothering me that I remember from time to time. There are many of you here who know much, much more than I do, so I'd like to have your opinions.
Sauron was a Maia. Not one of the Valar as Melkor was, but only one of the Maiar. There were countless Maiar upon Middle Earth...why were none of them as powerful as he was? Without digging deep, I can think of Melian, the Balrogs, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast...the list goes on. What I am asking is: Is it indicated in any of Tolkien's work why Sauron was so much more powerful than the other Maiar, or how he came to be that way?
Why did all fear him? Why did he have other Maiar as servants? The Balrogs that served him were Maiar too. I believe I have a limited understanding of the Maiar, as I've never read anything to indicate that they come in such a wide variety of strengths and natures.
Throughout LOTR many other characters (Galadriel and Gandalf, especially) suggest that should they possess the Ring, they would become as equally evil and terrible as Sauron, and bear the same hold over the world. Yet Sauron made the Ring. Unless we are to infer that the power of evil is exponentially stronger than the power of good (I hope not for all our sake), it should not be the Ring that dictates the power of its bearer. From this passage I drew my conclusion that the power of the Ring is directly proportional to the power of the bearer:
"Did Gandalf not tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others."
Galadriel to Frodo, pg. 357 of Fellowship of the Ring
Sauron's Ring has such a power for evil and domination because he was its creator, correct? If he never created the Ring, he should remain just as powerful - only without the means to physically ensnare the other races through the rings he created. He could still have massed armies and overcome most in combat.
I'm just forced to speculate that as there appeared to be no immortal powers in Middle-earth that could challenge him, he was the most powerful Maiar to ever descend there. If I am completely mistaken I won't be surprised, but I would appreciate your thoughts (or references to the texts).
I'm just forced to speculate that as there appeared to be no immortal powers in Middle-earth that could challenge him
No immortal powers in ME? Gandalf was very powerful, indeed powerful enough to destroy him, but he had been given the orders to stay as an old man =).
Who was "Gandalf?" It is said that in later days (when again a shadow of evil arose in the Kingdom) it was believed by many of the "Faithful" of that time that "Gandalf" was the last appearance of Manwë himself, before his final withdrawal to the watchtower of Taniquetil.(That Gandalf said that his name "in the West" had been Olórin was, according to this belief, the adoption of an incognito, a mere by-name.) I do not (of course) know the truth of the matter, and if I did it would be a mistake to be more explicit than Gandalf was.
Morgoths Ring. However, its still a quote of "It is said" and "believed" ;).
But, as it is said about Dagor Dagorath, Gandalf defeats Sauron there, meaning he was more powerful, its jsut that his powers were "locked" inside the body. _____________________________________________________________ As for why he was so strong/powerful: he had been corrupted and taught by Melkor, whom we know was, well, powerful ^^. Balrogs working for him? If im not very much mistaken (i might be of course), then they only worked for him in the first age, when he was the chief of the armies of Morgoth. And even then, i think the balrogs worked for him because of Melkor making him his chief of his army ( i think =]).
Yet, i might be 100% wrong and some of my "story" is definately wrong. I think.
Everyone: correct me at any point i am wrong at =)
Sorry if you dont see any quote marks, it wouldnt let me.
-- Edited by Olorin/Gandalf at 23:40, 2007-07-01
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
As far as I know Gandalf, Olorin, the wisest of the Maiar was not as powerful as Sauron even when Sauron's strength lay mostly in the Ring far away. None in the Third age Middle-earth could have taken him.
However other Maiar who were likely to be just as strong, if not stronger than Sauron were Eonwe, banner bearer of Manwe, Melian the Maiar, Osse servant of Ulmo Lord of Waters, Perhaps Gothmog lord of Balrogs and a few lesser known ones.
Sauron seems a very powerful Maiar mostly becuase Morgoth gave him much additional power as he did with amost of his chief servants (Glaurung for instance is a spirit in a Dragon shape, most likely given power beyond what he had at the beginning to make him so great).
Sauron never had control of Balrogs with the possible exception of when he ruled Angband when Morgoth was in Valinor.
As far as I am aware the Ring is merely an extention of Sauron's original power transformed to include dominion over the other Rings of Power. I don't think it gives him additional power than what he possessed before he made the Ring.
If Gandalf was not as powerful as Sauron, then i wonder how he defeated Sauron in Dagor Dagorath, when Sauron was stronger than him. Still, the prediction about Dagor Dagorath was never finished by Tolkien, so... =).
-- Edited by Olorin/Gandalf at 12:53, 2007-07-02
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
Where does it ever say that _Gandalf_ would be the one to defeat Sauron in the Dagor Dagorath? And I thought it was _Morgoth_ they were supposed to be defeating? You quote UT, but your reference to Gandalf eludes me. I've looked throughout HoME, but searching for "Dagor Dagorath" yields little except references to "Fionwe" and "Turambar". Unless you equate Manwe = Gandalf, which is hardly likely.
"To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." Unfinished Tales
As we can see Olorin is called 'a lesser' spirit of the mighty Angelic people. He is not as mighty as Sauron.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Tyrhael: Yes, they are supposed to defeat Morgoth, but with Morgoth also comes Sauron, whom Gandalf defeats. I read it in the Dagor dagorath prediction. No idea where though =/.
Glorfindel: I noticed this in your qoute: "one coëval and equal". The lesser could therefore also refer to "less important" or something like that, aye?
Fire: Moved it for ya.
-- Edited by Olorin/Gandalf at 00:11, 2007-07-04
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
Glorfindel, you are right, but not by using this quote. Had you also posted the first part you would see that the word "lesser" doesn't refer to Gandalf and Sauron, but to Gandalf and Eonwe. So what Tolkien is saying is that if Manwe sent Eonwe to Morgoth's defeat, then he would send a spirit lesser then Eonwe, Gandalf, to defeat Sauron, who, at least in the beginning was equal to Sauron. In one of his letters Tolkien analyses the possibility of Gandalf confronting Sauron using the ring. He says that this way it would be difficult to know who the winner would be, since Gandalf using the Ring would have as much power as Sauron without it, clearly showing that he was weaker. Even his return as Gandalf the White can be seen as proof that he powerfull enough initially.
Of course Sauron was strong, that's why he was the greatest of Melkor's servants, but many in Valinor could have beaten him. This time however, the Valar didn't want to repeat what had happened at the end of the First Age and deal with this themselves. They did send help to the people of Middle-earth in the form of the Istari, but pretty much let them solve their problems. That's why they only sent lesser spirits, and nothing great.
I also wonder whether Sauron was more powerful in the First Age than in the Third Age. Did the power that Morgoth put into Sauron deminish when he was cast into the void or stay with Sauron? I can't see how Sauron could remain more powerful than Olorin without the Ring if he didn't have Morgoth's bestowed power still in him in the Third Age.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
I suppose that Sauron still had that power for I don't see another explanation as to why he seems so much more powerful than the other Maiar. Once Morgoth had given Sauron additional power I guess it then became Sauron's regardless of what happened to Morgoth afterwards. Interesting thought though.
ok from what ive learned and read there were 5 different other istari. (saruman, gandalf, radagast, alatar, and panllando) Apparently they were all powerful enough to defeat Sauron but they were not sent to middle earth to destroy sauron they were sent to middle earth to HELP deafeat sauron. The wizards all had different tasks to complete when they first appeared in middle earth and their tasks werent to deafeat sauron but more or less assist in the destruction of sauron.
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"Hail Earendil, brightest of angels, sent over Middle-earth to men!"
Greetings Earendilthegreat Haven't seen you on here before. Welcome to the forums.
Indeed you are correct in that there were 5 Istari (Wizards), and the names are correct also. However none, I think, were powerful enough to defeat Sauron. Even Gandalf, returned as Gandalf the White, could not defeat him. Sauron was a powerful Maiar and even without the Ring he was perhaps the most powerful being in Middle-earth, after the Balrog.
But yes you are correct in that the whole point of the Istari was to guide the free peoples, rather than to do the work for them. And out of the five only Gandalf proved faithful to this task. Saruman betrayed, Radagast neglected, and the Blue Wizards remain another irritating mystery.
Hmm, indeed he was strongest Tolkien in one letter (believe in #154) is quite unsure on the outcome of a battle of Gandalf bearing the Ring against Sauron meaning that Gandalf + One Ring = Sauron.
ah yes but i thought that the istari were maiar too and they were sent by Manwe to help middle earth. i could be wrong but thank you mouth of sauron for clearing that up for me. oh yes it is off the point of the post but werent the blue wizards corrupted too or they just like didnt do their tasks?
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"Hail Earendil, brightest of angels, sent over Middle-earth to men!"
I think there was some topic around here about them, but I can't seem to find it right now. Anyways, Tolkien offered several ideas about the outcome of their mission. In one they were quite successfull and their work in the east helped weaken the power of Sauron there and without them men of the East would have long invaded the west of M-e. On the other side another source sees them as failures and as creators of magical cults that lasted long after Sauron's fall.
The Blue Wizards or Ithryn LuinAlatar and Palando (Morinehtar and Rómestámo; Darkness-slayer and East-helper) are two notoriously mysterious characters of Middle-earth. They are only hinted at in The Lord of the Rings, where Saruman says there are five Wizards. However, other writings of Tolkien have more to say. In a writing found in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien writes that the two Wizards were sent to the East. Their names in Valinor were Alatar and Pallando, and they are Maiar of the Vala Oromë. They are said to have arrived not in the Third Age, but in the Second, around the year 1600, the time of the Forging of the One Ring. Their mission though is still to the east, to weaken the forces of Sauron. And it is here said that the Wizards far from failed; rather, they had a pivotal role in the victories of the West at the end of both the Second and the Third Ages. The two wizards disappeared after the war and their fate became unknown, some speculate they had remained in the East and South of the Middle - Earth perhaps having started magical cults. But no one could say for sure. And, so it was, little did anyone knew that the wizards had other plans beside their mission. It was a perfect opportunity to leave behind the Undying Lands, and the ways of Vala, so they took it the first moment they stepped on the shores of the Middle Earth. Of course no one was supposed to suspect, so Wizards remained true to the mission, but worked in secret on their real plan. Once the war over and mission with it and as their existence was widely forgotten and was not generally known amongst the Free People of Middle-Earth in the first place, The Blue Wizards used that greatly.
-- Edited by ArwenLegolas at 20:38, 2008-04-26
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
I think the answer about Saurons nature and strength while in Middle Earth really does rest in an inference through Galadriels response to Frodo at her mirror. The Secret Fires quotes this in his initial posting The nature of Sauron (July 1st, 2007) "Did Gandalf not tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others."( Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter VII -The Mirror of Galadriel)
What this quote can seem to imply is that to be a Master you must train and grow stronger in the domination of others. As pointed out by others in this forum, Sauron has had multiple generations worth of training by Melkor/Morgoth in enslavement and domination of the creatures of Middle Earth. Sauron's Ring has such a power for evil and domination because he was its creator, correct? If he never created the Ring, he should remain just as powerful - only without the means to physically ensnare the other races through the rings he created. He could still have massed armies and overcome most in combat. (Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > The nature of Sauron >The Secret Fire > July 1st, 2007)
As for why he was so strong/powerful: he had been corrupted and taught by Melkor, whom we know was, well, powerful ^^. Balrogs working for him? If im not very much mistaken (i might be of course), then they only worked for him in the first age, when he was the chief of the armies of Morgoth. And even then, i think the balrogs worked for him because of Melkor making him his chief of his army ( i think =]). (Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > The nature of Sauron >Olorin/Gandalf > July 1st, 2007)
By extrapolation the longer one is trained and exercised in a certain discipline the more competent one becomes in implementing this discipline. As to Saurons relationship to the Ring , (if we can agree that The Ring is a weapon that can be wielded.) Sauron, as a trained expert of the Rings and maker, suffered no rival in the domination. Men and Dwarves were corrupted with the Rings. But how? Kings and races he enslaved. Why? Remember he had been corrupted and taught by Melkor, trained extensively in the domination and manipulation of others, was probably the strongest in the practice of evil behind Melkor/Morgoth. Rationale is supplied by mouth of sauron with this insight, I suppose that Sauron still had that power for I don't see another explanation as to why he seems so much more powerful than the other Maiar. Once Morgoth had given Sauron additional power I guess it then became Sauron's regardless of what happened to Morgoth afterwards. (Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > The nature of Sauron >mouth of sauron > October 18th, 2007)
What is not explored or brought to the surface here is that Middle Earth is not held by Saurons evil. Sauron has no expertise in loyalty through love. He only knows of binding others to him through fear and greed. Sauron does not see the beauty of flowers, or mallorn-trees, or a child being born. He only sees them as substances to be dominated, manipulated, and consumed. The love that Hobbits feel for the Shire, the love of Elves for Rivendell or Lothlorien, the love of the Dwarves for the lost kingdoms of Moria, or Theoden Kings love for Rohan, are only seen as obstacles in Saurons path of destruction and enslavement. Sauron does not see technology as fireworks. He sees it as creating weapons of destruction. Sauron is not the most powerful how can he be when he is destroyed by two insignificant Hobbits and a miss step of a most wretched little creature?
But Tolkien shows us an even clearer example of how evil destroys itself. Saruman consumes forests of trees. Trees arent beauty and life in his eyes. They are just fuel. And he uses them to create a monstrous force of evil. But, blind like Sauron, he does not see the love of the Ents for those trees, or the healing powers of Gandalf in a kingdom of men. And the Ents, aroused by two little insignificant Hobbits, and the strength of men and elves bound together in fellowship, loyalty, and love bring the mighty Saruman to utter destruction.
It is healing, protecting loved ones, love of the earth, integrity, loyalty, and honest affection looking to a higher purpose that win the day.
So what is the nature of Sauron? If the criteria is to train your will to the domination of others."( Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter VII -The Mirror of Galadriel) then Sauron nature is corrupt and demonic.
Glorfindel1235 quotes and writes; To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coëval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." Unfinished Tales As we can see Olorin is called 'a lesser' spirit of the mighty Angelic people. He is not as mighty as Sauron. (Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > The nature of Sauron >Glorfindel 1235 > July 3rd, 2007)
Gandalf knows that if he, or any other being, uses Saurons criteria of ultimate power to dominate others (as through the Ring) he/she becomes a part of the evil of Melkor/Morgoth. A mortal Frodo, who keeps one of the great Rings, doesnot die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him. ( Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter II -The Shadow of the Past, pg 71) Later Frodo says to Gandalf, You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring No! cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.(Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter II -The Shadow of the Past, pages 87 -88 ) Sauron has no understanding of pity or the desire of strength to do good. It boils down to trying to compare apples to orangesthey are different fruit. In the forum Bilbo Baggins writes, As far as I know Gandalf, Olorin, the wisest of the Maiar was not as powerful as Sauron even when Sauron's strength lay mostly in the Ring far away. None in the Third age Middle-earth could have taken him. However other Maiar who were likely to be just as strong, if not stronger than Sauron were Eonwe, banner bearer of Manwe, Melian the Maiar, Osse servant of Ulmo Lord of Waters, Perhaps Gothmog lord of Balrogs and a few lesser known ones. Sauron seems a very powerful Maiar mostly because Morgoth gave him much additional power as he did with most of his chief servants (Glaurung for instance is a spirit in a Dragon shape, most likely given power beyond what he had at the beginning to make him so great). Sauron never had control of Balrogs with the possible exception of when he ruled Angband when Morgoth was in Valinor. As far as I am aware the Ring is merely an extension of Sauron's original power transformed to include dominion over the other Rings of Power. I don't think it gives him additional power than what he possessed before he made the Ring. (Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > The nature of Sauron >Bilbo Baggins > July 2nd, 2007) Yet Gandalf would not take the Ring because; With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly. His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. (Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book I, Chapter II -The Shadow of the Past, pages 87 -88 )
The Might has it right about what Gandalf is as compared to what Sauron is not. "So what Tolkien is saying is that if Manwe sent Eonwe to Morgoth's defeat, then he would send a spirit lesser then Eonwe, Gandalf, to defeat Sauron, who, at least in the beginning was equal to Sauron. In one of his letters Tolkien analyses the possibility of Gandalf confronting Sauron using the ring. He says that this way it would be difficult to know who the winner would be, since Gandalf using the Ring would have as much power as Sauron without it, clearly showing that he was weaker. Even his return as Gandalf the White can be seen as proof that he powerful enough initially. Of course Sauron was strong, that's why he was the greatest of Melkor's servants, but many in Valinor could have beaten him. This time however, the Valar didn't want to repeat what had happened at the end of the First Age and deal with this themselves. They did send help to the people of Middle-earth in the form of the Istari, but pretty much let them solve their problems. That's why they only sent lesser spirits, and nothing great".(Tolkien Forums > General Lore discussion (standard) > The nature of Sauron >The Might > July 22nd, 2007)
The nature of Sauron is revealed in what Gandalf is and because it points clearly at what Sauron is not.
Tolkien reveals more of Saurons nature in Frodos encounter with Galadriel. Galadriel has invited Frodo to look in her elf magical mirror. In their discussion of what they have seen Frodo asks Galadriel And what do you wish? he said at last. That what should be shall be, she answered. the love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now. For the fate of Lothlorien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task. Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost. You are wise and fearless and fair, Lady Galadriel, said Frodo. I will give you the One Ring, if you ask for it. It is too great a matter for me. Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh. Wise the Lady Galadriel may be, she said, yet here she has met her match in courtesy. Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. You begin to see with a keen eye. I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands, and behold! It was brought within my grasp. The evil that was devised long ago works on in many ways, whether Sauron himself stands or falls. Would not that have been a noble deed to set to the credit of his ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my guest? And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night. Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain. Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love and despair! She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo, she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. I pass the test, she said. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel. ( Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter VII -The Mirror of Galadriel, pages 431 - 432)
What does this show us in the nature of Sauron? Treachery in robbing those weaker than you. Casting aside integrity and nobility to gain revenge. Abandoning modestly to embrace a bewitching glamour that all shall love me and despair. Abandoning good for power. Abscense of humility. Sauron nature then is numinous as an angel with a dark power that rejects all that is held good by the creatures of Middle Earth. This rejection is traded for the power of domination and manipulation over the creatures of Middle Earth.
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
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