I was just reading the chapter 'Shadow of the past' when I noticed something very strange. I quote:
He wandered in loneliness, weeping a little for the hardness of the world, and he journeyed up the River, till he came to a stream that flowed down from the mountains, and he went that way. He caught fish in deep pools with invisible fingers and ate them raw. One day it was very hot, and as he was bending over a pool, he felt a burning on the back of his head) and a dazzling light from the water pained his wet eyes. He wondered at it, for he had almost forgotten about the Sun. Then for the last time he looked up and shook his fist at her. But as he lowered his eyes, he saw far above the tops of the MistyMountains, out of which the stream came. And he thought suddenly: It would be cool and shady under those mountains. The Sun could not watch me there. The roots of those mountains must be roots indeed; there must be great secrets buried there which have not been discovered since the beginning.
How could Gandalf have possibly known all these small details??? How could he have known that Gollum one day was hurt by the Sun and shook his fist at it or how could he have known what Gollum said about the roots of the mountain?This is just one of many extracts where Gandalf recites to Frodo all about the minute details of Gollums trip. How he was kicked in his Grandmothers place etc. My question is - how could Gandalf have known all this in this amount of detail?
No, not Bilbo. On March 23rd 3018, Gandalf arrives in Mirkwood and begins to question Gollum and on the 29th Gandalf leaves Mirkwood and sets out for the Shire. This means he had six days time to interogate him, more then enough to find out enough information on the Ring and maybe other things such as these. Only afterwards did he travel to Bag End. Also, the fact that the quote is given in Shadow of the Past means that all details of Gollum's story were still fresh.
I doubt Gollum could have recounted times about being kicked, driven out and strangling Deagol and hiding his body. And also it seems unlikely that in the vast history of the Ring from Anduin Gollum would quote what he said hundreds of years previous about the Sun on his face making him too hot.
The Might's theory seems pretty solid to me. mouth of sauron wrote:
I doubt Gollum could have recounted times about being kicked, driven out and strangling Deagol and hiding his body. And also it seems unlikely that in the vast history of the Ring from Anduin Gollum would quote what he said hundreds of years previous about the Sun on his face making him too hot.
I think that after years of torture by the ring, and a long time underground, those are the things he would remember best. First, those were the biggest changing points in his life. Second, what else does Gollum have to remember?
I doubt you can call these minor details. He would remember what he ate and how he eventually ended up in the Misty Mountains. It is clear that he remembered certain things about his past life, but maybe these memories only resurfaced under interogation (like Gandalf's), torture (in Mordor) or like in Frodo's case who remembered Gollum of who he used to be.
I think that it was possible for Gandalf, a very intelligent and subtle creature, to draw all sorts of conclusions without Gollum having make a big confession. As we read the Lord of the Rings we see again and again the schizophrenic nature of Gollum as he has his arguments with Sméagol, his alternative persona. I have patients making confessions all the time; to me, to nurses, to their families, to themselves.
But I think Gandalf may have gained a lot by inference. For example if someone says that they hate changing smelly diapers and hates washing bottles I think that it may be safe to assume that they have had some negative experiences with babies.
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Still I find it hard to understand how Gandalf can make such detailed conclusions. Gollum seems the sought to clam up in great fear, rather than reveal everything he knows coherently. Then again perhaps Gandalf delved further into his mind than any mortal could to retrieve the information. He was after all, Maiar, I suppose. Perhaps he thought what he needed to know was worth exposing a bit of his true nature to find out.
Still I find it hard to understand how Gandalf can make such detailed conclusions. Gollum seems the sought to clam up in great fear, rather than reveal everything he knows coherently. Then again perhaps Gandalf delved further into his mind than any mortal could to retrieve the information. He was after all, Maiar, I suppose. Perhaps he thought what he needed to know was worth exposing a bit of his true nature to find out. (mouth of sauron , Tolkiens Forums; Fellowship of the Ring - Shadow of the past, 06/28/2008)
mouth of sauron, I think you make three good points here; Those with schizoid personality often regress back inside their multiple personas when faced with anxiety or depression. Gollum seems to be filled with fear (anxiety) from many sources that are good as well as evil. He also articulates his sense of loss (depression) of the Ring, of his family, and himself.(the symptoms are recognizable in his inner debate with Gollum vs. Sméagol.) This conflict splits him and his bipolar manic and passive states resulting in paranoia and murderous rage. Even as Tolkien reveals the inner psychological dialogue in Gollum he shows that Gollum (who has animated and projected part of personality into my precious the Ring) does not share his true self with any of the forces of good. (or evil) Thus the statement, Gollum seems the sought to clam up in great fear, rather than reveal everything he knows coherently is a valid for Gollum in many points within the trilogy.
The next point, Gandalf delved further into his mind than any mortal could to retrieve the information. may be more insightful and directed to other topics in the Forums than just Gollum. A paranoid schizophrenic (as Gollum) reveals much of his history and inner feelings in the dialogue that others consider babbling. But those who are not suffering from mental illness also reveal themselves to Gandalf. Gandalf draws this out when Bilbo passes the Ring to Frodo. He also sees through the treachery of Saruman in Isengard. He also does it when he heals the Lord of the Mark. He also uses this insight to reveal Wormtongues lust for Éowyn and Denethors meglomania is also revealed to Gandalf while in Minas Tirith. Most significant is Gandalfs dismissal of Saruman and the breaking of his staff.
This leads to the last point which I have seen in many different forums on this sight. He was after all, Maiar, I suppose. Perhaps he thought what he needed to know was worth exposing a bit of his true nature to find out. ("mouth of sauron", Tolkien Forums, General Lore, Fellowship of the Ring, Shadow of the past 06/28/2008) Some Istari are Maiar.(or are all Istari Maiar?) So just what are the powers of Istari? Do Maiar have specific powers endowed by their Avatar? Do they have specific powers just because they are Maiar? Do they have a mystical power into the hearts and minds of all the creatures of Middle Earth? Perhaps the only have it with certain species. Or not. I will continue my search through the Forums for more on this topic. (Any hints or leads would be appreciatedthere is so much here.) How could Gandalf have possibly known all these small details??? How could he have known that Gollum one day was hurt by the Sun and shook his fist at it or how could he have known what Gollum said about the roots of the mountain? This is just one of many extracts where Gandalf recites to Frodo all about the minute details of Gollums trip. How he was kicked in his Grandmothers place etc. My question is - how could Gandalf have known all this in this amount of detail? (mouth of sauron, Tolkiens Forums, General Lore, Fellowship of the Ring - Shadow of the past, 05/27/2007)
Gollum is a victim of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. (PTSD) He has endured torture, deprivation, addiction (to the Ring), and is bipolar. He has a biological neurosis based on years of improper diet, substandard living environment, geriatric dementia.(he is very old.) He also has sociological elements that can trigger situational neurosis; isolation, torture, abandoned by his family, long terms of imprisonment below and in mountains, and asocial interactions with several communities.
Back to your original question; how could Gandalf have known all this in this amount of detail? Those who suffer from PTSD, are Bipolar, and suffer geriatric dementia, sometimes can and will articulate the underlying motives for their neurosis. Once started it may be difficult to stop. It becomes a fountain and a waterfall of their perceived experience. Usually triggered by mild stress (such as psychotropic medicinal injections) the healer and social worker, counselor, nurse, or psychiatrist can inundated by this verbal regurgitation of experience and perspective. Gandalf and the King (Aragorn) who has the hands of a healer, could have very well triggered this from Gollum who was still suffering for torture and deprivation at the hands of Sauron. So both the environment, personnel, and recent traumatic experience of the patient are ideal for this treatment to work.
Personally I prefer the informal and liberal application of a social lubricant available at the pub. However, usually, the participation of therapeutic team and the quantity of the social lubricant consumed can lead to inaccurate collection of data and one heck of a headache!!!!!
-- Edited by Bear at 20:48, 2008-06-28
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
Again, interesting psychological insight there Bear. Just to attempt to answer the question about Maiar powers... as said in the essay Osanwe-kenta, concerning the psyonic (?) powers of M-e inhabitants, Tolkien notes that more developed beings in this respect such as Elves or Ainur (including Maiar) were capable of more easily separating their spirit fom their body in order to make contact with others. As such, it could perhaps be possible for Gandalf to somewhat enter Gollum's mind and also retrieve information without letting Gollum realise this. However, I am not 100% sure, I guess I should reread the essay or perhaps wait for some confirmation from Galin. He knows it all ;)
Also concerning the Maiar...There were Five Istari, all of which were Maiar, chosen by the Valar as guiders and councellors to the Free Peoples. They are Angelic in origin and while bound to phisical form in Middle-earth, so as not to intimidate and perhaps shun the Free peoples around them, there are times it seems when (Gandalf at least) makes exceptions. No doubt Gandalf revealed much of himself both when he entered into Dol Guldur, and when he faces Sauron in the Palantir. Also when he fought with the Balrog atop ZirakZigil he put aside his pretence entirely and fought with all his angelic abilities.
Notice that in all of these times he is alone, so perhaps he did the same to Gollum. Reveal at least some of his true nature in order to gain access to Gollum's mind.
In fact in 'The Silmarillion' we hear that Olorin (Gandalf) walks in Valinor unseen (dis-embodied) and the Elves there know not what causes the strange happy feelings when he is nearby. Perhaps he is also entering the Elves' mind as well, purely for the bestowing of joy of course. Although many of the Ainur seem to have a 'speaciality' towards a certain type of thing (Aule - making, Ulmo - Water, Manwe - air etc) I think all the Ainur have a power in everything that is, just to different degrees. Yet Gandalf always seems to have specialised in the mind. He learns Pity from Nienna in Valinor and is the wisest of all the Maiar. I don't think Gandalf would have had either moral or phisical or phycological difficulties in entering and extracting information from Gollum's mind.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
And another thing that I just thought of. It may well be that this was the only way Gandalf could have learned of this. As we see, Gollum had forgotten so much about his past, he may have even forgotten such details and he would not have been able to directly tell this to Gandalf.
But such information may have been saved in his subconcious allowing Gandalf to see it.
The Might and Glorfindil1235, You both make good points and those are some interesting speculations!
I think Tolkien uses many literary devices to draw the story of the Ring and its malevolent, seductive, insidious powers. Gollum is a hideous, destructive, and disgusting character which Tolkien uses to foreshadow the Rings impact on Frodo. Five more characters are used in drawing this destructive persona of the Ring; Gandalf, Galadriel, Saruman, Isildur, and Boromir. Gandalfs reaction when Frodo offers him the Ring...fearing the Ring would change him to a dark lord. Galadriels reaction when Frodo offers her the Ring...fearing to become a dark malevolent queen. Saruman betraying the White Council for the Ring and attempting to seduce Gandalf into alliance with Mordor Isildur ignoring Elronds advice and becomes corrupted and betrayed by the Ring. And the tragic fall of Boromir; corrupted and twisted in trying to take the Ring from Frodo. The failing of Frodo at the Cracks of Doom and the destruction of Gollum are also part of Tolkiens creation of the Rings persona. All this is done with the literary devices of projection, metaphor, inference.
-- Edited by Bear at 05:40, 2008-07-11
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
