"For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he..." The Silmarillion
And the this quote:
"But now Ilúvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Ilúvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Ilúvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren." The Silmarillion
My question is thus: If Melkor had been the same as Manwe, as all the Ainur started off the same, what made Melkor firstly desire the Flame Imperishable? If this desire came not to Manwe then why would it come to Melkor if he had been the same as Manwe in his Beginning? What triggered his first rebellious desires off?
My second question is thus: If Melkor was in his beginning the same as Manwe then could not Manwe (or any of the Ainur) have had the same desires as Melkor and therefore had taken his place if Melkor had not done so first?
PS: Lets see if we can get this topic good enough to be moved to Advanced Lore.
It's pretty simple I guess. If you take a look at the first quote you will notice it is never stated that Melkor actually was like Manwe in the beginning, but only that "in the though of Iluvatar" they were equals. Eru wanted them to be equals, this however did not happen, since Manwe on one hand remained good and served Eru, while Melkor only did things in his own interest.
As for the second question, I guess you're right. It could have happened to any of the Ainur to become evil and desire power only for themselves, as they all had their own mind, and were not controlled by Eru. I would however think that Melkor was more "vulnerable" to give way to such temptations, since as the most powerfull in Ea, he was most likely to become more greedy and desire more. However, as I said, Manwe could have ended up like that as well.
The story of the creation of the world is in Tolkien's writings very similar to the Christian view on these things with Lucifer as the fallen angel instead of Melkor. Just like Lucifer, it was his high status among others that made him become evil. I think Eru, as a very wise entity, knew that such a thing might happen, if he would create a being greater then the others, and that is why he designed Melkor and Manwe as equals in his thought. However, Melkor turned out to be the most powerfull in Ea, and the events that followed are perhaps a direct consequence of this.
But I have a question as well now...if Melkor and Manwe were supposed to be equals, why is it that Melkor was the more powerfull?
The Might wrote:It's pretty simple I guess. If you take a look at the first quote you will notice it is never stated that Melkor actually was like Manwe in the beginning, but only that "in the though of Iluvatar" they were equals.
But the Ainur are merely the thoughts of Eru himself, made visible into beings.
..."and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he..."
So if Manwe had been the same as Melkor I would think it means he had the same mental characteristics of him. We know that all the Ainur were 'equal' in the mind of Iluvatar so I don't think that quote is implying this.
"All rational minds / spirits deriving from Eru are 'equal' - in order and status...." Morgoth's Ring
I think that Melkor perhaps came from a part of Eru that contained a more 'rebel' section of thought than the other Ainur. Perhaps Eru had both equal 'good' and 'bad' balance. In fact I don't think evil and good applies with Eru himself, they only arrise from his creations and what those creations do with there lives.
Perhaps Melkor had a more rebelious strain in him (not evil but just rebelious) that first made him look for the Flame Imperishable. Thus I do not think that any of the other Ainur would have turned as Melkor had done.
'Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'Sil 'But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor.'Sil
'Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwë is dearest to Ilúvatar and understands most clearly his purposes. He was appointed to be, in the fullness of time, the first of all Kings: lord of the realm of Arda and ruler of all that dwell therein.'Sil
In all tales, there's always good and bad, that side and then 'that other side' and in many cases it usually is those who were closest eachothers and were equal at start where that starts. Eru saw that Melkor started to rise against him and he 'lifted' Manwe, his bro against him. Maybe everything is connected to that last quote: Manwe was dearest to Eru..simple thing called envy.
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I am Tulkas the Valiant who laughs ever in the face of Good or Evil.
If Eru has planned everything that is going to be (like when he says to Melkor 'In the End ye shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more great and wonderful than ye himself hath imagined...") then surely Eru planned also for Melkor to be evil? Otherwise without Morgoth how would the 'second arda' the one where evil is gone and every being undertsnads the part of all the others etc have come to be?
Interesting thoughts there Bilbo. I can see where your coming from. If fate is planned by Eru then he must have planned the evil of Melkor for some kind of 'eternal enlightenment' in the next unmarred Arda. Unfortunately I don't think we have anybody able to comment on such a theory.
I see this as a severe metaphysical inconsistency on Tolkien's side, because the modern creations of mythical tales demand certain dialogue with entire Greek-occidental tradition of ours, for we no longer need myth to solve the questions like what the world is and what the origin of man is. We have developed more sophisticated organon, religion and philosophy. Tolkien left much untold and left room for our wide-ranging interpretations. That is why I consider certain only those premises that he underlines due to their importance .. if you understand. I realize I am not too precise. We project much into Tolkien. I think that he simply solved the relations between Matter and Spirit somewhat.. beginnerly! He doesn't even imply poetically the way Gene Wolf does. His cosmogony shouldn't be dogmatized because it doesn't exhaust the possibilities of modern myth.
The Ainur are poorly dealt with. They are mighty contemplative particular human minds. They were made to finish the world.. but behold!! Tolkien divides the acts of finishing among the industrial crafts. That is a common modern age illusion. And their regulative role is pale and constructed for the purposes of sujet.
Please excuse this beginner..I am fascinated by this topic. What I saw in the questions and conflict can be expressed in some simple Jungian psychology in vogue before and after the World wars. The concept of "Self", or soul is a combination of the presence and inter-relationships (including conflicts) of any individual psyche. "Self" capitalized is the pure good that makes up a portion of "self" which is the human psyche or soul. Super Ego vs. Id would be the Freudian equivalent but expressed in Jungian terms it would be that Manwe is that aspect of our super ego that can acknowledge no evil, it is blind to it. "For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar,Melkor had been even as he..." The Silmarillion" On the other hand the psyche is also made up of "Shadow" a place of darkness, some ignorance and pain that emerges when the "Self" and "Shadow" (Melkor) merge to create the "persona" which is the visable part of a psyche or person. The greatest good or direction would be called "consciousness" which would be the "God" (Illuvatar) which blends the persona, shadow and "Self." How humankind expresses its "awareness" of these forces is through the expression of archetypes through art, music, literature. Often these are expressed in our culture as "myth." The "myth" need not be fantastical figures. It is often expressed in our deification of models, sports figures, political candidates, to name only a few. Tolkien seems to have captured this essential mechanism of the psyche when he created the "archetypes" of Manwe, Melkor, and Illuvatar. And he did it in a "Divine Myth" which uses vehicles of aret music, and literature. To the question of why I believe that Tolkien had to have a Melkor and a Manwe if he was creating any epic. Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. Please accept this beginners response. I look forward to this discussion in reproof and correction to gain enlightenment. Bear Elf Friend
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
First off drawing from my simplified memories of my Elders days, wasn't this whole thing created because England did have a 'Mythology' of their own? He was also a very religious person, so with the examples of Cain and Able, Romulus and Remus... he created M&M. Makes a better story it one just goes bad and doesn't kill the other off. Religion and Myth were created to provide guidance, not sell books. Why does any twin/brother go bad when the other ends up guiding the world? Other then it makes for a better story.
Eru at some point like a good parent let Ea go over to the control of the Ainur, who in turn let it go to the children of Iluvatar. And then when they screwed it up the Ainur had to intervene, Twice.
As for Melkor becoming stronger, Initally Evil is always stronger then Good, because there are no limits to conform to. After which Good adjusts and within the Limits of Good grows stronger.
Tolkien did it again, in a little different way in the 3rd Age, but it fit in his thread.
I came across this last night in 'Unfinished Tales', 'The Hunt for the Ring'.
'Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in M-e, even though he hid his power and desire niether fear nor reverence.'
I'm guessing that this is the progression between M&M Jealousy, Rivalry, Hatred, because of... 'the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers of M-e.'
