Well, I now that it is said that Aragorn divided his time between Annuminas in the north and Minas Tirith in the south. As Queen of the Reunited Kingdom, Arwen probably joined him, but I am sure she went to Rivendell and Lorien from time to time as well.
I wonder what life-span was granted to Arwen. Aragorn lived much longer than normal men and this considering the fact that Arwen chose to be mortal I suppose she would have lived quite long. Is this mentioned anywhere in the appendices for example?
Aragorn died in the year 120 of the Fourth Age. Arwen was deeply grieved and at last she understood the bitterness of mortality. Arwen said farewell to her children and went to Lothlorien where she died the next winter. Her grave was on Cerin Amroth where she and Aragorn had become betrothed. So she probably died sometime in the beginning of 121.
Well she was born in III 241 and died in winter of IV 121... So 3021 - 241 = 2780 years she lived in the Third Age And then 121 in the Fourth So around 2901 years I guess...guess Aragorn did like older women
It's just from Appendix D, where the Quenya word yén often translated 'year' really means 144 sun years. Of course she was way older than 20 Sun Years, but it's a fun thing
Interestingly in a draft for The Tale of Years Arwen was born in 2349 for example, but Tolkien pushed back the wedding of her parents and etc. of course.
Edit: compare also Galadriel's yéni únótime ve rámar aldaron!long years numberless as the wings of trees!
It was said that Elrohir and Elladan stayed in Middle-earth to make sure that Arwen would have comfort for the time when Aragorn died. Some believe that they chose to become mortals so they could be near their little sister. Has anybody heart anything similar?
-- Edited by ArwenLegolas at 00:22, 2007-04-09
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
In one Tolkien site there were those who thought they chose to become mortal and joined with the few Rangers that remained. Tolkien wrote in a letter dated 1954 that their end is not told. "they delay their choice, and remain for a while."
Many believe from this passage that they didn't choose mortality. If I remember right from my reading that they stayed in Rivendel. They were there when Celeborn tired of Lorien and started his journey West and he stayed with them for a time. Some believe that when Celeborn finally decided to go into the West that they went with him.
A good point Filli, their mother. That may be one reason why they might choose to sail. Didn't Tolkien write that in the end all the orcs and goblins parished? Someone might know, but they might have sailed to be with her? Tolkien did say that many of the Wood Elves might elect to stay on in Middle Earth, chooseing to fade among the forests they knew and loved better then the Undying Lands.
I can't recall him writing anything beyond the Orcs becoming scarce and holed away in far places. I don't think he ever wrote about their entire extinction. I could be wrong though.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
I remember that Tolkien attempted to write more about the Fourth Age but gave it up. He lamented that Men soon became tired of peace and would turn to darker pursuits. I can't remember if he said that there were no goblins or orchs...but that bored youth would establish orchish type cults.
The Elves could 'fade' in a historical sense for example, keeping to their own secret kingdoms, removed from history, or removed from impacting the World of Men.
But Tolkien, from his very early writings as a young man, had his Elves fade in the body as well. In a much later context, to fade in the body is equated with the Elven fea ultimately consuming its hroa -- basically the spirit consuming the body. From 'Laws And Customs Among The Eldar'...
'This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.'
Tolkien distinguished between a dead Elf -- one of the Houseless whose spirit had not departed to Mandos (refusing to do so) -- and a faded Lingerer 'whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully.'
This fading does not seem to happen in Aman however.
"a dead Elf -- one of the Houseless whose spirit had not departed to Mandos"
"a faded Lingerer 'whose bodily forms may no longer be seen by us mortals"
OK this is going to seem like splitting hairs, but wouldn't the end result be essentially the same if you died and refused to go to Mandos (their heaven?), or if you just faded. Isn't this state pretty much an earth bound spirit either way?
Which prompts more questions: Can an elf who has 'faded' then choose to go to Mandos?
And why would a dead elf not want to go to Mandos? I'm assuming as mentioned above it would be for love of their homeland, but then this would imply that 'home' was better than 'Mandos.' Or maybe, it was their loved ones they did not want to depart from. In that case, why fade at all. Did elves have a choice in this fading business?
Tolkien himself would no doubt get frustrated here and slap me. I really don't know if these answers exist ... I find elves facinating and can't help but wonder.
-- Edited by Saba on Wednesday 18th of August 2010 04:45:09 PM
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Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no.
Saba, I found several resources about the construct dealing with the cycle of "life" within the Eldar. Here is a piece of it; Excerpts from; Elvish Philosophy of Death and Incarnation Of their fate after life the Elves know much, because of their long staying in Valinor and of what they learned there from the Valar ... The fate of the Elves: The Elves see themselves as two different parts: the Fëa (spirit) and the Hroa (body). The two parts are not bound to each other, but without the Hroa, the Fea is powerless, and with no spirit, the body is dead and will soon dissolve. The life-span of the Elves is by nature the same as that of the world (although they are often called immortal, which is a totally different thing). But the Elves call earth "Arda Sahta", the Marred World. Within its borders, nothing can be uninfluenced by Melkor, and Elves and Men, who are made of Arda's matter, are all likely to suffer in some way. Thus the elvish Fëa tend to "consume" the Hroa, until all that is left of it is a vague shape and it is indeed indestructable. Also, the Elves may die of grief or wounds (but not by disease) and then the Fëa will leave the Hroa. Then the "houseless" Fëa will be summoned to the Halls of Mandos, and it may go there of its own free will. Most Fëa do this, but those who have been influenced by Melkor and are corrupt often dread the punishment they will receive in Mandos and stay in Middle-earth, trying to take over some other Hroa that already contains a Fëa. Those who follow the summons may, if they wish, be incarnated in a new-born body, identical to the previous. The others stay in Mandos until the end of the world. For the Elves are bound to the world, and cannot leave it. All Fëa, whatever way they choose, must wait in Mandos for a time; how long depends on the individual. If the Fëa has done evil in its previous life it must often wait longer until allowed to return to life. But sometimes it has to stay for good. Fëanor was for instance never allowed to leave Mandos. The reborn Elf is in all ways a child again, and does not remember its previous life until its experience and knowledge has grown. Then its life becomes double rich, since it has experienced two childhoods and has memories from two lives. There are few cases where an Elf has been reincarnated more than once. The reason for this is unknown. There are no documented examples of reincarnated Elves except, perhaps, Glorfindel of Gondolin who may have been reborn in the Second Age and helped Frodo and company to Rivendell. But it is not definitely established that the two Glorfindels are one.
References: ~ The History of Middle-earth Vol. 10, The later Quenta Silmarillion: Laws and Customs among the Eldar ~ The History of Middle-earth Vol. 10, The later Quenta Silmarillion: of Finwe and Miriel ~ The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor
(Thanks to "The Grey Havens", http://www.tolkien.cro.net/elves/phylosop.html)
There is more but much of it is intertwined with the fate of Men, the influence of Melkor, and specific cases like Finwe and Miriel, Luthien and Beren, the Kin - Slaying, Arwen and Aragorn, and Man's relationship with Eru.
Here is a little more on it from an article which defines the construct of "death" for each race in Arda.
Excerpts from; Death in Tolkien's Legendarium The peoples of Arda each have different fates. Death's meaning varies between races. Elves are immortal, while Men are mortal. "The point of view of this mythology is that 'mortality' or a short span, and 'immortality' or an indefinite span was part of what we might call the biological and spiritual nature of the Children of God, Men and Elves (the firstborn) respectively ..." (Tolkien, Letters 204) The peoples of Arda are made up of a fëa and a hröa that roughly correspond to soul and body, respectively. For the Elves, the hröa is made to fit the fëa and it is unnatural for them to be separated. The fëa of Men, however, becomes separated from their hröar at death, and in this case separation is natural because it is in accordance with the nature of Men. Ideally, Elves do not die; their lives are bound to that of the world. They are 'immortal' but not 'eternal;' their existence is "measured by the duration in time of Earth." (Tolkien, Letters 204) However, with the introduction of evil into the world, death came into the picture and marred Eru's plan for the Elves. "The Elves were not subject to disease, but they could be 'slain': that is their bodies could be destroyed, or mutilated so as to be unfit to sustain life." (Tolkien, Letters 286) They can also die of grief ~ essentially giving up on life. For the Elves, however, 'death' is not a true death; the fëa never leaves the world. Instead, it flees to the halls of Mandos, where it may rest and find release from the weariness of the world. This 'death' contradicts the intrinsic nature of the Elvish being by separating the fëa from the hröa, which are meant to complement and complete each other. Thus, Eru found a means to amend the situation. After a time of waiting in Mandos' halls, the Elvish fëa may, if it chooses, be reincarnated in a hröa identical to the one in which the fëa was formerly housed. The Valar were given permission and power by Eru to see to the construction of a new hröa for the 'houseless' fëa, and they can judge that a fëa may not be reimbodied, or at least not yet, in certain situations. Normally, the reincarnated Elf remains in Aman. Only in special cases is the Elf sent back to Middle-earth, generally because he has some task yet to complete there. "Therefore, if they dwelt in Middle-earth, their bereavement of friends and kin, and the bereavement of these, was not amended. Death was not wholly healed." (Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring 365) Glorfindel is an example of a reimbodied Elf. Many will recognize Glorfindel's name as the Elf who came to the aid of Aragorn and the Hobbits on their way to Rivendell after Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop. Frodo rode Glorfindel's horse to the safety of Rivendell while being pursued by the Ringwraiths. Many do not know, however, that Glorfindel was also a hero of the First Age who was killed while fighting a Balrog in Gondolin. "When Glorfindel of Gondolin was slain his spirit would according to the laws established by the One be obliged at once to return to the land of the Valar. Then he would go to Mandos and be judged, and would then remain in the 'Halls of Waiting' until Manwë granted him release.' (Tolkien, The Peoples of Middle-earth 380) When reimbodied, Glorfindel dwelt for a while in the Blessed Realm, but eventually returned to Middle-earth, most likely around the year 1600 of the Second Age. It is interesting to note that Tolkien had originally considered rebirth as a child in a new hröa to different parents as an option for the rehabilitated Elvish fëa. Upon further contemplation, however, Tolkien decided there were too many problems with this idea and eventually abandoned it: A hastily written manuscript on small slips of paper, entitled 'Reincarnation of Elves', seems to show Tolkien's reflection on the subject ... In this discussion he referred in rapid and elliptical expression to the difficulties at every level (including practical and psychological) in the idea of the reincarnation of the fëa as the newborn child of second parents, who as it grows up recaptures the memory of its previous life.: 'the most fatal objection' being that 'it contradicts the fundamental notion that fëa and hröa were each fitted to the other: since hröar have a physical descent, the body of rebirth, having different parents, must be different, and this must be a condition of pain to the reborn fëa. He was here abandoning, and for good, the long-rooted conception ... of rebirth as the mode by which the Elves might return to incarnate life. From his scrutiny of the mythical idea, questioning its validity in the terms he had adopted, it had come to seem to him a serious flaw in the metaphysic of Elvish existence. But, he said, it was a 'dilemma' for the reincarnation of the Elves' seems an essential element in the tales: "The only solution" he decided,." in this discussion was the idea of the remaking in identical form of the hröa of the Dead ..." (Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring 363) Even though Elves cannot die of old age, that does not mean they do not feel the effects of time. After many long years of living in the world, they grow weary. "The Elves were sufficiently longeval to be called by Man 'immortal'. But they were not unageing or unwearying." (Tolkien, Letters 325) This 'immortality' becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction. In fact, sometimes the Elves would begin to wish for true death, that is, leaving the confines of the earth, but this desire was wrong. Indeed, it could be said that the 'fall' of the High Elves was partly brought about by an Elf who wished to die: Míriel, the wife of Finwë and mother of Fëanor. Míriel did die and her fëa went to the halls of Mandos, but she could not leave the world as she desired. She nevertheless refused to be reimbodied, and her husband, who was still young and yet desired more children, eventually wanted to remarry. Elvish law forbade any Elf to have two spouses among the living, however. The Valar discussed Finwë's request, and finally a new statute was made. If a married couple were separated by death, the one still living could remarry only if the one who had died vowed never to be reimbodied. Finwë's remarriage could be seen as an indirect cause of the Kinstrife.Unfortunately, nothing is known of what will happen to the Elves at Arda's end. "Illúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end ..." (Tolkien, The Silmarillion 42) The Elves had ideas but knew nothing for certain. "But what the end of the world portended for it or for themselves they did not know (though they no doubt had theories)." (Tolkien, Letters 325) They trusted Illúvatar, however, and believed that whatever he had planned for them would be good and would perfectly satisfy their nature.
References; ~ Tolkien, J.R.R. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Ed. Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2000. ~ Tolkien, J.R.R. The Lord of the Rings. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1994. ~ Tolkien, J.R.R. Morgoth's Ring: The Later Silmarillion, Part One. The History of Middle-earth Ser. Ed. Christopher Tolkien. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1993. ~ Tolkien, J.R.R. The Peoples of Middle-earth. The History of Middle-earth Ser. Ed. Christopher Tolkien. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1996. ~ Tolkien, J.R.R. The Silmarillion. 2nd ed. Ed. Christopher Tolkien. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 2001.
(Thanks to "The Valar Guild" and especially the articles by "Amaranth ~ http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Amaranth/DeathinTolkien.html) If your interest is peaked by these articles I suggest digging into the character and task of the Ainur "Mandos." It was through this search that I found most data about the fate of the creatures of Arda. It seems to me, by tying in with such metaphors and chapters as "The Music of the Ainur" and "Of the Beginning of Days" from The Silmarillion, and the History's of Middle-earth key words such as Mandos, Death, Elves in a web search yielded much of the fate of Elves and the life of Elves. Give it a shot and I think you will be surprised.
PS: definitely think Tolkien wouldn't slap you. He pushed his students to question and dig deeper for answers and insight. And isn't that what your questions are all about? Besides, if he slapped women, he would have to deal with bear claws and bear fangs chewing on his butt! And this Bear wouldn't care if he was "faded" or not!
-- Edited by Bear on Thursday 19th of August 2010 01:02:51 AM
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
OK this is going to seem like splitting hairs, but wouldn't the end result be essentially the same if you died and refused to go to Mandos (their heaven?), or if you just faded. Isn't this state pretty much an earth bound spirit either way?
But the distinction is very interesting then, for it is Tolkien who is arguably splitting hairs (from a certain perspective) concerning the faded Lingerers, and I think he must have a purpose for doing so. Laws And Customs seems imagined to be written by a Man -- possibly Elfwine the Englishman -- and at one point it's noted: 'Moreover, the Lingerers are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not desire bodies, ...'
So in some sense at least, however faded or 'consumed', these Elves are not houseless, and may reveal their forms to Men's minds -- where the wicked among the Houseless may even seek to take another body, or enslave its host and use will and body for its own purposes.
Which prompts more questions: Can an elf who has 'faded' then choose to go to Mandos?
Good question. I don't know, but technically a faded Lingerer has not actually 'died' I guess. I imagine that to leave Middle-earth they still took ships -- it is said that this fading did not occur in Aman, so I wonder what might happen once they arrived, though I assume they were restored to an unfaded state.
(...) In that case, why fade at all. Did elves have a choice in this fading business?
As noted by the ursine one, they do not appear to have a choice in Middle-earth. In much earlier versions of Tolkien's tales the smallness, filminess and transparency of the 'fairies' is an aspect of their fading: 'and directly related to the domination of Men in the Great Lands.'
It will be noted (History of Eriol of Elfwine) that: '... ever as Men wax more powerful and numerous so the fairies fade and grow small and tenuous, filmy and transparent, but men larger and more dense and gross. At last Men, or almost all, can no longer see the fairies.' In the early Fall of Numenor it was sung by the Elves that in the 'Last Alliance' (as it was imagined at this time) the Elves: '... expended their strength and substance in the assault upon him.' And the Elves said that this hastened the fading of the Eldar.
Of course these are earlier texts, and there was not always a Second or Third Age to consider. The citations and commentary already in the thread are based on JRRT's later writings, written after the publication of The Lord of the Rings.
-- Edited by Galin on Thursday 19th of August 2010 02:29:02 PM
OK Bear, I took notes as I was reading through the above to help keep it all straight.
I appears that the elves are doubly blessed in knowing what will happen after they die.
What I understand from this is that elves aren't immortal in a true sense. Providing that they don't expire from wounds or a broken heart, their body will eventually fade as it is made of Arda's matter which degrades. The immortality comes from the spirit or fea, and this will last as long as the world does, not an eternity - I did not know this. I thought that elves were eternal, even though they age.
If an elf has been evil and then dies, the fea will have to face the music in Mandos. So that would be one reason for not wanting to go there. If you've been good, you can basically be restored to the body you had. Now, this is because its unnatural, or unmeant for an elf's fea to be separate from the hroa. It's just the way things are done for elves. However, death with the spirit separating from the body is considered natural for men (I'd call that unfair).
The reincarnation of elves is sort of Christian, (fea and hroa, soul and body) as one would expect I suppose. In Christianity (and this is a blanket statement not meant to elicit a debate over the varied types of beliefs) .. anyway, your soul goes to heaven (hopefully) basically as yourself. Some believe you eventually return to your body when the new kingdom comes. So the idea is familiar. The difference is that elves appear to have a 'right' to this by virtue of being elves. Tolkien was definitely fond of his elves!
And for Galin,
So, I've learned that a faded elf is not house less as they have a form of sorts, but a dead elf it would seem is houseless/formless.
It should be possible for a faded elf to go to Mandos, and yes I hope a body would be provided - that is if one is wanted I suppose.
It sounds from what you provided that Tolkien was originally thinking along the lines of fairies (I immediately think of the Irish type) when he invented his elves, and he was looking for a way to explain how they evolved into their present state.
Now for the part I'm struggling with:
"Therefore, if they dwelt in Middle-earth, their bereavement of friends and kin, and the bereavement of these, was not amended. Death was not wholly healed." (Tolkien, Morgoth's Ring 365)
I believe this is addressing an elf with a restored body remaining in Aman. What is Tolkien trying to say here? I assume the elf in question would remember who he/she is/was? But looking at the above quote, I would think that could not be the case because it conveys that if the elf returned to Middle Earth, his/her loved ones could not recover from their bereavement. That must be because the form would be the same but not the substance. I must be misunderstanding because an elf would not be 'restored' if he were not restored as himself or herself. - You'd think the bereaved would be joyful to have their loved one back!
-- Edited by Saba on Friday 20th of August 2010 12:49:46 AM
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Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no.
Yes Saba, it's a bit misty to try and explain perhaps, but I think it's notable that Tolkien seems to desire that a faded Elf not be considered houseless, so I wanted to add that.
Anyway, I think the quote you're struggling with (going from memory!) refers to the notion that a re-bodied Elf in Aman might still be separated from loved ones left in Middle-earth, and possibly for a long time, so that death in Middle-earth could still be comparable -- in some measure at least -- to the loss and sadness that mortals feel.
But I would add Tolkien's reminder from On Fairy-Stories: 'Fairy-stories are made by men not by fairies. The Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness.'
Does the Lay of Leithian, or 'release from bondage', refer (at least in part) to the release of Luthien from the burden of deathlessness?
I was reading the timeline with interest, and I'm a bit confused - as usual. Aragorn was taken by his mother to live at Rivendell when he was small, but per the timeline, Aragorn did not meet Arwen until he was 20 years old?? I reviewed it twice, so I know that I read it right. Was Arwen away at college or what?
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Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no.
Hmmm... I remember that Arwen was in Lothlorien for a while with her grandparent's (Celeborn and Galadriel). She met Aragorn after she returned to Rivendell from Lothlorien.
