Tolkien Forums

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Tolkien Forums → General Lore disussion (standard) → Animals of Middle-earth?
 

Topic: Animals of Middle-earth?

Post Info
Bilbo Baggins
Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 1109
Date: Feb 26, 2007
Animals of Middle-earth?
Permalink  
We don't here much talk of the animals of ME. We know there were birds and rabbits etc but I mean the larger more interesting animals are scarecely ever heard of. I have one quote suggesting that there were 'apes' in the vast southern forest south of Harad:

"You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Uglúk,' he said. 'Nazgûl! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!" - LOTR, FOTR

As we can see there was probably apes in the south and we know about Mumakil being larger earlier cousins on Elephants.

Is there many more animals that are mentioned that I have failed to see?

__________________
You want it for Yourself!
The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Feb 26, 2007
Permalink  
Well, you asked for interesting animals so I will not mention the common ones.
Bats (they took the part of the Goblins in the Battle of the Five Armies)
Boars (best known was the Boar of Everholt that dwelled in the Firien Wood; he was killed by King Folca of Rohan but also mortally wounded him in the fight)
Crebain (used as spies by Saruman in the War of the Ring)
Hawkes (also servants of Manwe just liek the eagles. Aragorn mentions them saying that far above the crebain also hawkes spied on the lands below. however I believe that they weren't also Saruman's spies, but probably had been sent there by the eagles or by Manwe himself)
Ravens and thrushes living near Erebor which brought tidings to the Dwarves
Kine of Araw were cattles living near the Sea of Rhun and were said to be descendants of the cattle brought there by Orome



__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Feb 27, 2007
Permalink  
It says in the Silmarillion that all the animal species of the world could be found in Valinor:

"For all living things that are or have been in the Kingdom of Arda, save only the fell and evil creatures of Melkor, lived then in the land of Aman; and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle-earth, and perhaps never now shall be, since the fashion of the world was changed."

Perhaps some books or chapters in the Home series which focuses on Valinor may reveal some more mysterious creatures that are not mentioned elsewhere.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Feb 27, 2007
Permalink  
Interesting find mos, I didn't know that some unknown creatures lived in Aman, but this seems to be the case.
However, I can't recall any other species being mentioned.
The only more special case I can mention is Huan, the Hound of Valinor. He clearly is not a Maia, but was granted by the Valar the power to speek three times. He also shows that he has feelings and a conscience of his own, making his mind identical to that of other incarnates, which is very interesting. Same seems to be the case with the ravens that bring messages to the Dwarves during the Quest of Erebor. They are not inhabited by spirits, but still have special powers.
Perhaps while in ME only few animals have this gift, in Aman all posess it.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Feb 27, 2007
Permalink  
Perhaps that is the case. Perhaps Galin could provide some of his obscure quotes on the matter?

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
Celebrindal
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Date: Mar 3, 2007
Permalink  
Bilbo Baggins wrote:

We don't here much talk of the animals of ME. We know there were birds and rabbits etc but I mean the larger more interesting animals are scarecely ever heard of. I have one quote suggesting that there were 'apes' in the vast southern forest south of Harad:

"You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Uglúk,' he said. 'Nazgûl! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!" - LOTR, FOTR

As we can see there was probably apes in the south and we know about Mumakil being larger earlier cousins on Elephants.

Is there many more animals that are mentioned that I have failed to see?

Does it count that the spiders grow to enormous size?  If you consider only non-speaking creatures those wouldn't, I guess.  Are Huorns animal or vegetable??  This is rather a can of worms, isn't it!  There were werewolves, midges and flies, thrushes and swans;  and Beruthiel apparently had some very clever cats, though of what size who can say?  Cats, and horses also, count if we extend the list to domesticated animals.

There is also the possibility that in the translation from Westron the word "ape" was substituted for a word that doesn't exist in our language, a creature we would not have recognized, or even a breed of orc especially maligned by the Mordor clans. . .

-C



__________________
Lissenen ar' maska'lalaith tenna' lye omentuva
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Mar 3, 2007
Permalink  
Interesting theory about the apes but this quote would seem to indicate they exist in Middle-Earth as we know them:

"Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South." Lotr

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Mar 3, 2007
Permalink  
You ask whether Huorns are animal or vegetal?
Well, the answer is in my opinion pretty easy, they're vegetal. Huorns are actually trees that wake up and become more entish. They respect Yavanna's desire that the forests be protected from other creatures and so Huorns serve as protectors of the olvar.
Merry Brandybuck speculated that Huorns were Ents that had become more like trees. Treebeard also spoke of trees that had become Entish, so it is possible that some of these became Huorns as well.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Celebrindal
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Date: Mar 3, 2007
Permalink  
I agree with you, TM -the spider/Huorn questions were rhetorical really... the point being that a lot of large and interesting M-E creatures don't necessarily fit into real world classifications :)

Still I stand by the assertion that any text translated from M-E languages, as LOTR is supposed to be, might include references to things of our world that take a similar but different form in theirs. It's pure conjecture on a very trivial point, but for no fathomable reason, I find the idea of M-E apes exactly as we know them a distasteful inclusion, so... here's my little wave in the general opinion pool. Here are some notes relating to the fictional, and by extension factual, translation of LOTR:

A Tolkien Compass, Jared Lobdell, ed., Open Court 1975 p.156
Guide to the names in The Lord of The Rings
"In a few cases the author, acting as translator of Elvish names already devised and used in this book or elsewhere, has taken pains to produce a Common Speech name that is both a translation and also (to English ears) a euphonious name of familiar English style [....] But of course the translator is free to devise a name in the other language that is suitable in sense and or topography; not all the Common Speech names are precise translations of those in other languages" - J.R.R. Tolkien
I suspect many creatures weren't documented or actually characterized, but it's safe to assume that as many would exist there as do here, and that most were intended to be very much if not exactly like real creatures. At the same time, the wild lands of M-E preserve some very unlike large interesting beasts. I'd bet dollars to donuts that no apes survive in the Greenwood (post-Mirkwood) if ever there were any. I can accept that there might very well be ape-like creatures... "ape" being the word most suitable in sense to describe them, somewhere in M-E. East of Rhun perhaps, maybe in Harad or further south -as pure speculation, naturally.


__________________
Lissenen ar' maska'lalaith tenna' lye omentuva
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Mar 4, 2007
Permalink  
Interesting thoughts on the animal or plant question about the Hourns. Personally I would say they were plants, but as soon as they were woken up they became animals with plant like features. A plant doesn't have a true will of its own. It grows and consumes light and nutrients but it does these things at its peak rate depending on conditions. They are more like biological primitive robots. They simply do what they were grown to do and never differ from there set path becuase its not in their capabilities.
However when the Hourns were awakened they ceased to act as plants and developed a will, even if it is more primitive to that of Elves, Men and Dwarves. They spoke to eachother and acted on how they themselves saw the circumstances. Plants merely react to circumstances and have no means to alter those circumstances. The Hourns acted UPON circumstances and even had the ability to change them as we see in LOTR when they go against saruman.

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
Celebrindal
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Date: Mar 4, 2007
Permalink  
To preface, I have no idea who or what has a seat on the bus to rational thought. I try to consider it as little as possible, out of fear that the driver is drunk.

By animals I suppose Bilbo was speaking of creatures who act primarily on instinct, and even in that narrow focus, taking all the books into account, I think we were introduced to a good many. In the real world bears are considered large and interesting; at least, if I saw one I would take special note of it. And though any bear is a bear, you'd not confuse a polar bear with a panda, grizzly, or sun bear. It might be interesting to see artist's renditions of M-E creatures - ones not invented by Tolkien and given common names, but which might be as different from real creatures as a panda from a grizzly.

Now, if I saw giant talking spiders, dragons, ents, and awakened trees, which are also large and interesting, I'd order a CAT scan. They are counted among the works of various Vala, not Eru directly; whether they have permanence in the natural order of things is entirely another question. But, if they make rational decisions, act on them, and live in ordered societies (communal or otherwise), they might be appropriately sub-classified as peoples..?

__________________
Lissenen ar' maska'lalaith tenna' lye omentuva
mouth of sauron
Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
Status: Offline
Posts: 2372
Date: Mar 4, 2007
Permalink  
This is becoming quite complicated and Analytical! What is classed as a 'People' is very hard to establish. In the case of Hourns they can think for themselves, if they are awake, they can communicate, move, make decisions and probably have different moods (anger for example). None of these are present in plants, so they are certainly closer to animals I would say. I suppose they live in a community (the forest) and can communicate with eachother, move about the community and effect the environment itself. I would classify them as a sub-people.

__________________
My Master Sauron the Great bids thee Welcome....
The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Mar 5, 2007
Permalink  
Let us not get carried away here. Middle-earth might have been thought of as our own world in a distant past, but let us not bring so many things from our world into Tolkien's. Considering the extensive presence of "magic" in Arda I see no reason why plants should necessarily be seen as inferior to animals.
Yavanna for one would have definitely never agreed with such a remark. I see no reason why, only because they have reached a certain level of understanding of the world and conscienceness, the Huorns should be immediately classified as animals.
Old Man Willow was, as the name already clearly shows, a tree, a plant, and not some creature belonging to a new animal category.
And what of people? What are people?
Are we talking about people as humans or just an organized folk. Because if we consider it as a group of similar creatures then I see them clearly as a people of their own. They had much in common with Ents, and trees, but enough differences as well.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Celebrindal
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Date: Mar 5, 2007
Permalink  
You lost me... I'm not seeing any creature mentioned that Tolkien didn't put in...

I've no proof that any plants are inferior to animals, but the differences between them in M-E is certainly more nebulous.  It seems agreed that the answers to questions about animals may have to take some flora into account.

People, if you take The Peoples of Middle-Earth as a strict account, are the Children of Illuvatar, as all the rest exist only within the context of Arda and the music of the Ainur - with the likely exception of Dwarves.  I tend not to - bipedal primates are in the habit in both worlds of classifying themselves separately.  I sure won't be the one to tell the giant spiders they ain't people

__________________
Lissenen ar' maska'lalaith tenna' lye omentuva
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Mar 5, 2007
Permalink  
It all depends on what we as a people ourselves class as another People. If a truly inferior animal such as as ant was to look upon the giant spiders then it would probably see them as a people. Yet becuase we are Human and generally superior to other species in terms of inteligence we perceive very little as coming close to being a People, comparing everything to ourselves.

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Mar 8, 2007
Permalink  
I found a quote in The Hobbit:

"Great Elephants!" said Gandalf, "you are not at all yourself this morning-you have never dusted the mantel- piece!"

Make of it what you will.

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Mar 8, 2007
Permalink  
Clearly Gandalf had seen the oliphaunts himself, and this is also supported by many other passages.
For example he says his name is Incanus in the south, and clearly by this he means an area further south then South Gondor.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Mar 8, 2007
Permalink  
I have never however heard the Oliphaunts called Elephants. It says somewhere that Oliphaunts were 'the older and much larger cousins of the lesser breeds found today' but I have never heard them called the same thing.

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
Status: Offline
Posts: 1886
Date: Apr 1, 2007
Permalink  

Deleted by Arwen



-- Edited by ArwenLegolas at 04:33, 2007-04-02

__________________

Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Apr 1, 2007
Permalink  
ArwenLegolas, sorry for having to repeat myself, but please don't just copy past from the EoA or other sites without at least giving a proper quotation for that.
Secondly, many of these animals already were mentioned so only other additional stuff would be interesting.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
ArwenLegolas
Tom Bombadil
Status: Offline
Posts: 1886
Date: Apr 2, 2007
Permalink  
Thanks The Might, will quote sources next time.

__________________

Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Celebrindal
Elf of Beleriand - Rank 2
Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Date: May 21, 2007
Permalink  
Bravo, Glorfindel! How did I miss the presence of a whole elephant? ;)

Considering the arena (and my previous contribution to the topic), I will refrain from categorizing that as a "mistake", and chalk it up to an oversight by the translators, naturally.

And Mr. Baggins, I must mention that on your account the next time I read LoTR I'll be looking for exotic fauna. :)

__________________
Lissenen ar' maska'lalaith tenna' lye omentuva
Bilbo Baggins
Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 1109
Date: Jun 27, 2007
Permalink  
Just found a quote backing up Glorfindel's statement about Mumakil:

"Fear and wonder, maybe, enlarged him in the hobbit's eyes, but the Mûmak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty."

The Two Towers

__________________
You want it for Yourself!
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Jun 29, 2007
Permalink  
Thats the one Bilbo! Couldn't find it myself. Perhaps all the animals of Middle-earth have relations to our own.

__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
Erasmus Folly
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 7
Date: Jul 4, 2007
Permalink  
And let's not forget

The Fox

On the first night of the Hobbits' journey from Bag End, a fox happened upon them sleeping under a large fir tree.
"Hobbits!" he thought. "Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this." He was quite right, but he never found out any more about it.
The Fellowship of the Ring: "Three Is Company," p. 81
The Hobbits and Strider saw another fox in the Chetwood, but that fox's thoughts are unrecorded.

Sources:
The Fellowship of the Ring: "Three Is Company," p. 81; "A Knife in the Dark, p. 194



From The Thain's Book


Also there were black squirrels in Mirkwood and presumedly normal grey squirrels elsewhere. I believe one of Faramir's companions mentions this.



__________________
Glorfindel
Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
Status: Offline
Posts: 2161
Date: Jul 6, 2007
Permalink  
The Might wrote:
You ask whether Huorns are animal or vegetal?
Well, the answer is in my opinion pretty easy, they're vegetal. Huorns are actually trees that wake up and become more entish. They respect Yavanna's desire that the forests be protected from other creatures and so Huorns serve as protectors of the olvar.
Merry Brandybuck speculated that Huorns were Ents that had become more like trees. Treebeard also spoke of trees that had become Entish, so it is possible that some of these became Huorns as well.
Huorns aren't tress that have become like Ents but Ents that have become like trees:

'It was the Huorns, or so the Ents call them in "short language". Treebeard won't say much about them, but I think they are Ents that have become almost like trees...' TTT

If we assume therefore they are a type of Ent it is easy to deduce that they are more like animals than plants. Ents were spirits sent down by Eru (and therefore are probably of Ainur origin). Therefore although they look like plants in all other ways they behave like animals.



__________________

Utúlie'n  aurë!  Aiya  Eldalië  ar  Atanatári,  utúlie'n  aurë! 
Auta  i  lómë! 
Aurë entuluva!
Erasmus Folly
Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 7
Date: Jul 6, 2007
Permalink  
Glorfindel1235 wrote:


If we assume therefore they are a type of Ent it is easy to deduce that they are more like animals than plants. Ents were spirits sent down by Eru (and therefore are probably of Ainur origin). Therefore although they look like plants in all other ways they behave like animals.


Glorfindel1235 makes a good point. Inregards to the nature of Ents vs Hurons are'nt we begging the question? Are Ents really animals? What do they eat? As best I can tell they only drink. In our world we catagorize things as Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. but does this apply to Middle Earth? For instance, Gandalf and Sauruman are commonly refered to as of the race of men but clearly they are not men in the sense as the men of Numenor are. They are, in their true nature, of the Maiar.  They may appear as men when they clothe themselves as such, but what are they really? I would refine Glorfindel1235's observation to say that Ents combine in themselves the essences of both plant and animal.



__________________
treesofvalar21
Men of Numenor - Rank 1
Status: Offline
Posts: 11
Date: Jul 9, 2007
Permalink  
Erasmus Folly wrote:

Glorfindel1235 makes a good point. Inregards to the nature of Ents vs Hurons are'nt we begging the question? Are Ents really animals? What do they eat? As best I can tell they only drink. In our world we catagorize things as Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. but does this apply to Middle Earth? For instance, Gandalf and Sauruman are commonly refered to as of the race of men but clearly they are not men in the sense as the men of Numenor are. They are, in their true nature, of the Maiar.  They may appear as men when they clothe themselves as such, but what are they really? I would refine Glorfindel1235's observation to say that Ents combine in themselves the essences of both plant and animal.


Well Erasmus Folly Ents as we know were brought to life by eleves and tehy taught them their sppech but made it long and more beatiful. Ents were created to be shepards of the trees and guard nature, so to speake.  Ents do drink from the entwash, when pippin and merry came home they all said they were taller beacuse they drank from the entwash which kept ents growing and healthey. They do not eat cuz they are trees, they are a combined of plant an animal they dont fit into a catorgoy.



__________________
Bilbo Baggins
Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 1109
Date: Jul 13, 2007
Permalink  
They can only be defined as spirits in earthly bodies. They came from outside of Ea in the beginning.

__________________
You want it for Yourself!
Bilbo Baggins
Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
Status: Offline
Posts: 1109
Date: Sep 8, 2007
Permalink  
Also interestingly I found this quote:

"Primeroles and anemones were awake in the filbert-brakes; and asphodel and many lily-flowers nodded their half-opened heads in the grass: deep green grass beside the pools, where falling streams halted in cool hollows on their journey down to Anduin."

Anemones are sea creatures. Never heard of a plant called an anemone.

Also I was surprised by:

And plink! a silver drop falls, and the round wrinkles in the glass make all the towers bend and waver like weeds and corals in a grotto of the sea.

I just never imagined the sea of Belegaer being so much like our seas with corals in them. I always thought of it as an empty huge exapance where Ulmo dwelt with perhaps a few fish.

__________________
You want it for Yourself!
The Might
Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
Status: Offline
Posts: 3118
Date: Sep 9, 2007
Permalink  
It is a sea creature, and a flower as well, at least in German it is.

And I always thought the sea would be similar to our oceans. Especially in the southern regions off the coast of Harad I could imagine corals.

__________________
Honor, Freedom, Fatherland
 
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.
 
Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse 		Powered by ActiveBoard