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Topic: LOTR discussion Book II

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Feb 7, 2016
LOTR discussion Book II

Chapter 1. Many meetings



-- Edited by Lorelline on Sunday 7th of February 2016 05:38:09 AM

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Lórellinë

Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Feb 7, 2016

Chapter 1. Many meetings

Synopsis:

Frodo wakes up in Elrond's house and sees Gandalf - they start talking - Frodo learns of Aragorn's origins - Frodo notices an improvement in his arm's condition and Gandalf tells Frodo about the wounds caused by Morgul blades - also more about the Nazgul and about the Dark Lord's plans - Gandalf gives Frodo an account of the events at the Ford of Bruinen - Frodo goes back to sleep - he awakes, meets his hobbit-friends, and they all go to a feast - Frodo's impression on Glorfindel, Elrond, and Arwen - Frodo talks with Glóin - the feast is over and all go to the Hall of Fire - Frodo meets Bilbo - Bilbo talks about his life in Rivendell and also about the Ring which he obviously missed - a weird episode when Bilbo wants to hold the Ring but Frodo doesn't allow - Frodo hides the Ring away and they talk about what's new in the Shire - Aragorn comes and Bilbo involves him into a poem-making while Frodo falls asleep - he awakes to hear Bilbo's song about Earendil's journeys - Bilbo and Elves exchange some jokes about the song (and songs made by mortals in general) - Bilbo and Frodo leave the Hall of Fire and Frodo notices that Aragorn and Arwen were talking - Frodo and Bilbo go to Bilbo's room and talk about fair things - Sam comes and reminds Frodo of the bedtime.

Some points that I found interesting...

1. Gandalf says he read many things in Frodo's mind and memory. An interesting moment. Elves could exchange those thoughts they were willing to exchange, otherwise most of them didn't have a mind-reading ability. Some could perceive thoughts of others but that was always mentioned as a special thing (I recall only Galadriel, Idril and Maeglin). So Gandalf too can do that. But was he supposed to?Of course Frodo hardly would hide anything from Gandalf but was reading the mind of a sleeping person okay? In other words, was Gandalf allowed to do that? Gandalf doesn't seem to read Bilbo's mind in the Hobbit...

2. I might have mentioned it before but I think it is interesting that Elrond has the River Bruinen under his power. He has the Ring of Air, not of Water, so it is not its power but some other.

3. It is in fact in this chapter that Gandalf explains how the Morgul blade works and talks of fading and of the Seen and Unseen worlds. My impression is that this was discussed at length already but maybe there are more thoughts?

4. It is said that once all went to the Hall of Fire, elvish minstrels began to make 'sweet music'. Apparently this is Frodo's perception. I have always been wondering what 'sweet' means to readers? To me personally it means something based on classic harmonies but I noticed that fan-made 'elvish' music is oftentimes nothing like that, and is rather non-traditional.

5. When Bilbo says that he could have brought the Ring to Rivendell a long time ago and without much trouble, it is hard to disagree with that. Yes Gandalf didn't know for sure it was The One Ring, but he knew from the beginning it was one of the Great Rings (as alluded to in The Shadow of the Past) and in principle could have deduced right away which one it was, as he knew everything about the other Great Rings... But that's something we also talked about before (a weak point in the story, in my opinion)

6. Once more it is mentioned that the words sung in elvish-tongues take shape in the mind of a listener who doesn't even understand the language all that much.
7. The green stone mentioned in Bilbo's song is Elessar, a green gem (the history of its making can be found in Unfinished Tales in two different versions) that Galadriel had at the time of the events in this chapter. It is interesting that Aragorn insisted on including this stone in the song. Apparently it was done for the sheer accuracy, as he couldn't have known that the stone would be coming to him?

8. The exchange between Bilbo and the Elves concerning the song's authorship is hilarious.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Sunday 7th of February 2016 05:35:10 AM

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Lórellinë

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Date: Feb 18, 2016

As a quick response to the points that Lorelline made, I offer this:

 

1.  Who could say what Gandalf (Olorin) may have learned while in Valinor in the days before coming to ME. He may have found the ability very useful and decided to learn what he could from those who could wield such gifts.  The Elves can do it, so why not the Istari?  And if that WASN'T an ability that the Istari can learn, cannot a wise and very ancient person gather information from what they know and who they are examining?  Then through some kind of learned process of elimination or summation, gather the general idea of what a particular person (in this case a very simple and rustic person) might be thinking or what their next move might be?  It would seem like magic to those who are subject to this type of deduction but it may be more a mechanical means than one of whimsy and chance.

 

2.  Here's a silly answer:  Gandalf had a hand in the spell at the Bruinen.  Gandalf had the ring of Fire, Elrond the Ring of Air.  Put a small fire in an aquarium and the heat will condense the air and form Water.  Presto!  Done and done...I'll be here all week, tip your waitress...

 

3.  I have nothing on that topic..but would be interested in hearing someone's findings, if any.

4.There can be nothing traditional in Arda...not according to our standards (within our own musical history) for some time..until traditional stuff came about. 

Sure notes existed.  Sure strands of notes came together to form melodies etc..but how can we assume to know anything about what the sounds of Arda were like?  All we can do is learn what instruments the Elves had or the Dwarves or what was available to Men at the time.  And assume that they ingrained their own histories and touches in their music.  Halls of stone and gems and wealth for the Dwarves (as an example) and Beauty and Sorrow for the Elves (being long-lived and seeing many losses and wonders). 

Get into the mind set of these characters as a Race and one may have an idea of what their songs were like.  "Sweet" in the descriptive must have been something airy and soft.  I imagine harps, flutes maybe a lute, but in complex patterns, each complimenting each other but not playing note for note in unison, more like a weaving pattern where each instrument has it's own melodies that seem to catch each other every now and again to form some bit of a powerful thing, like a Power Chord to a guitarist. 

 

The other points are nice...I just have to think on them but my offerings may provide some spur for other members...

 

Well Done Lorelline.

 



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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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1. Gandalf says he read many things in Frodo's mind and memory. An interesting moment. Elves could exchange those thoughts they were willing to exchange, otherwise most of them didn't have a mind-reading ability. Some could perceive thoughts of others but that was always mentioned as a special thing (I recall only Galadriel, Idril and Maeglin). So Gandalf too can do that. But was he supposed to?Of course Frodo hardly would hide anything from Gandalf but was reading the mind of a sleeping person okay? In other words, was Gandalf allowed to do that? Gandalf doesn't seem to read Bilbo's mind in the Hobbit...

I figured Gandalf had the ability to read Frodo's mind because Frodo was the Ring Bearer and isn't it stated somewhere that Frodo could do the same but just hadn't tried yet?

As to whether Gandalf should have read his mind...

It all boils down to privacy and the greater good, I think. Or even Frodo's good. Perhaps he did it to see if Frodo had more information about the Nazgul. Or maybe he did it to see if Frodo was coming round. At the same time, I'd hate to have  a wizard in my head. Or anyone else for that matter.

 

3. It is in fact in this chapter that Gandalf explains how the Morgul blade works and talks of fading and of the Seen and Unseen worlds. My impression is that this was discussed at length already but maybe there are more thoughts?

To me it is interesting that the Nazgul don't actually have to kill anyone. But, here's the question: if a piece of the Morgul  blade didn't come off, would Frodo (or anyone) be doomed? Or, are Morgul blades like bee stings automatically?



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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Laurelin brings up a good question (in her response to #3 of the Many Meetings thread).

Laurelin writes: "...if a piece of the Morgul blade didn't come off, would Frodo (or anyone) be doomed? Or, are Morgul blades like bee stings automatically?"

From what the Morgul blade looks like in the movie, it seems almost like it's made of a nasty type of metal in the first place. Perhaps it was copper or bronze which turns green with oxidization. Copper in a clean and new state will wither a tree or poison its trunk. But like a rusty nail this ancient blade may have also been treated with poisons. Harkening back to my D&D days the ideal poisonous blade had carvings and runes along the blade in order to keep the viscous poisons from being completely wiped off. After time the poisons will dry in the carvings and with more treatments the blade just becomes layered with deadly death stuff to make people dead. Even if poisons aren't applied to an ancient blade rust might build in these grooves or other foul impurities. Dark business indeed.

And would it make sense that Tolkien would make some common things today like Lock-jaw from a rusty cut seem like some form of curse to those who hadn't seen medicine like we have nowadays? Maybe Elrond was proficient in Battlefield medicine and new how to perform surgeries after some Elvish fashion. No one can say that the Elves didn't get wounded in all those many battles and survive. They must have had healing arts that weren't as magical as Tolkien would have us believe. I can go on but will spare everyone..lol. Bon Chance.

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