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Topic: *Book Club* Fellowship of The Ring Discussion Group: Chapter One, A Long Expected Party

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Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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*Book Club* Fellowship of The Ring Discussion Group: Chapter One, A Long Expected Party

I personally liked the inviting feel of this chapter as it gives the old familiar feeling of the 'child-like' whimsy which "The Hobbit" embodied so well, but also gives a great deal of detail involving Hobbit life in the Shire and Bilbo's gravity as a famous and rather well-to-do Hobbit.  Here's a few things that stood out to me in this Chapter:

 

1.  The ties of Bilbo and The Dwarves of Erebor and people of Dale was a nice touch which inspired a lot of nostalgia of The Hobbit.  Carts...'driven by outlandish folk, singing strange songs: dwarves with long beards and deep hoods.  A few of them remained at Bag End.'  Were these the remaining members of Thorin's company?  Or merely dwarves paying homage to the beloved adventurer, Bilbo Baggins?

2. A reference to an 'express train' when describing the Dragon Firework at Bilbo's party; Could it be Bilbo's contribution or is it translator's? 

3. Is Bilbo leaving the Ring of free will after all?

4. Why not let him carry the Ring to Rivendell right then?

 



-- Edited by Jaidoprism7 on Thursday 6th of March 2014 04:34:21 PM

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This is also one of my favorites.
Bilbo seems pretty hardy for 111 y/o ... but when he gets ready to leave, and still has the ring in his pocket, his short conflict with Gandalf shows how much the ring has come posses him. He is the only being that lets the ring go somewhat voluntarily ... and it is out of love for Frodo and the willingness to accept the advice of his friend Gandalf ... a grey old Istari who exerted his power to help Bilbo let the ring go. 

I don't think that Bilbo would have made it if he kept the ring even a little longer.
Here is the passage ...

"You'll keep an eye on Frodo, won't you?'

'Yes, I will - two eyes, as often as I can spare them.'

'He would come with me, of course, if I asked him. In fact he offered to once, just before the party. But he does not really want to, yet. I want to see the wild country again before I die, and the Mountains; but he is still in love with the Shire, with woods and fields and little rivers. He ought to be comfortable here. I am leaving everything to him, of course, except a few oddments. I hope he will be happy, when he gets used to being on his own. It's time he was his own master now.'

'Everything?' said Gandalf. 'The ring as well? You agreed to that, you remember.'

'Well, er, yes, I suppose so,' stammered Bilbo.

'Where is it?'

'In an envelope, if you must know,' said Bilbo impatiently. 'There on the mantelpiece. Well, no! Here it is in my pocket!' He hesitated. 'Isn't that odd now?' he said softly to himself. 'Yet after all, why not? Why shouldn't it stay there?'

Gandalf looked again very hard at Bilbo, and there was a gleam in his eyes. 'I think, Bilbo,' he said quietly, 'I should leave it behind. Don't you want to?'

'Well yes - and no. Now it comes to it, I don't like parting with it at all, I may say. And I don't really see why I should. Why do you want me to?' he asked, and a curious change came over his voice. It was sharp with suspicion and annoyance. 'You are always badgering me about my ring; but you have never bothered me about the other things that I got on my journey.'

'No, but I had to badger you,' said Gandalf. 'I wanted the truth. It was important. Magic rings are - well, magical; and they are rare and curious. I was professionally interested in your ring, you may say; and I still am. I should like to know where it is, if you go wandering again. Also I think you have had it quite long enough. You won't need it any more. Bilbo, unless I am quite mistaken.'

Bilbo flushed, and there was an angry light in his eyes. His kindly face grew hard. 'Why not?' he cried. 'And what business is it of yours, anyway, to know what I do with my own things? It is my own. I found it. It came to me.'

'Yes, yes,' said Gandalf. 'But there is no need to get angry.'

'If I am it is your fault,' said Bilbo. 'It is mine, I tell you. My own. My precious. Yes, my precious.'

The wizard's face remained grave and attentive, and only a flicker in his deep eyes showed that he was startled and indeed alarmed. 'It has been called that before,' he said, 'but not by you.'

'But I say it now. And why not? Even if Gollum said the same once. It's not his now, but mine. And I shall keep it, I say.'

Gandalf stood up. He spoke sternly. 'You will be a fool if you do. Bilbo,' he said. 'You make that clearer with every word you say. It has got far too much hold on you. Let it go! And then you can go yourself, and be free.'

'I'll do as I choose and go as I please,' said Bilbo obstinately.

'Now, now, my dear hobbit!' said Gandalf. 'All your long life we have been friends, and you owe me something. Come! Do as you promised: give it up!'

'Well, if you want my ring yourself, say so!' cried Bilbo. 'But you won't get it. I won't give my precious away, I tell you.' His hand strayed to the hilt of his small sword.

Gandalf's eyes flashed. 'It will be my turn to get angry soon,' he said. If you say that again, I shall. Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.' He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room.

Bilbo backed away to the wall, breathing hard, his hand clutching at his pocket. They stood for a while facing one another, and the air of the room tingled. Gandalf's eyes remained bent on the hobbit. Slowly his hands relaxed, and he began to tremble.

'I don't know what has come over you, Gandalf,' he said. 'You have never been like this before. What is it all about? It is mine isn't it? I found it, and Gollum would have killed me, if I hadn't kept it. I'm not a thief, whatever he said.'

'I have never called you one,' Gandalf answered. 'And I am not one either. I am not trying to rob you, but to help you. I wish you would trust me, as you used.' He turned away, and the shadow passed. He seemed to dwindle again to an old grey man, bent and troubled.

Bilbo drew his hand over his eyes. 'I am sorry,' he said. 'But I felt so queer. And yet it would be a relief in a way not to be bothered with it any more. It has been so growing on my mind lately. Sometimes I have felt it was like an eye looking at me. And I am always wanting to put it on and disappear, don't you know; or wondering if it is safe, and pulling it out to make sure. I tried locking it up, but I found I couldn't rest without it in my pocket. I don't know why. And I don't seem able to make up my mind.'

'Then trust mine,' said Gandalf. 'It is quite made up. Go away and leave it behind. Stop possessing it. Give it to Frodo, and I will look after him.'

Bilbo stood for a moment tense and undecided. Presently he sighed. 'All right,' he said with an effort. 'I will.' Then he shrugged his shoulders, and smiled rather ruefully. 'After all that's what this party business was all about, really: to give away lots of birthday presents, and somehow make it easier to give it away at the same time. It hasn't made it any easier in the end, but it would be a pity to waste all my preparations. It would quite spoil the joke.'

'Indeed it would take away the only point I ever saw in the affair,' said Gandalf.

'Very well,' said Bilbo, 'it goes to Frodo with all the rest.' He drew a deep breath. 'And now I really must be starting, or somebody else will catch me. I have said good-bye, and I couldn't bear to do it all over again.' He picked up his bag and moved to the door.

'You have still got the ring in your pocket,' said the wizard. 'Well, so I have!' cried Bilbo. 'And my will and all the other documents too. You had better take it and deliver it for me. That will be safest.'

'No, don't give the ring to me,' said Gandalf. 'Put it on the mantelpiece. It will be safe enough there, till Frodo comes. I shall wait for him.'

Bilbo took out the envelope, but just as he was about to set it by the clock, his hand jerked back, and the packet fell on the floor. Before he could pick it up, the wizard stooped and seized it and set it in its place. A spasm of anger passed swiftly over the hobbit's face again. Suddenly it gave way to a look of relief and a laugh. 'Well, that's that,' he said. 'Now I'm off!"
(The Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter I ~ "A Long - Expected Party",pgs 33-35)

For me Chapter One is filled with foreshadow and childish delight ... I love the short passage where the hobbit children see Gandalf's fireworks and take his mark to be "G for grand!"
And the Old Gaffer, Ham Gamgee, puts it all in a nutshell;

"Elves and Dragons' I says to him. 'Cabbages and potatoes are better for me and you. Don't go getting mixed up in the business of your betters, or you'll land in trouble too big for you,' I says to him. And I might say it to others,' he added with a look at the stranger and the miller."

(The Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter I ~ "A Long - Expected Party",pg 24)

The darkness is foreshadowed openly with the parting conflict between Bilbo and Gandalf. There is the ominous warning from Gandalf to Frodo about the ring. It is foreshadowed comically with giving of "the presents" from Bilbo and the conflict with the Sackville-Bagginses ... and the greedy imaginings of other hobbits.

And, without a plethora of quotes for evidence,Tolkien also paints in Chapter One the deeper side of hobbits. From the irritation of the Gaffer for the miller and his love for his son Sam by trying to caution him to remember his place, to the feelings of Frodo's love for Bilbo, unspoken but felt, after Bilbo disappears under the Party Tree. Further on we see evidence of bonds of friendship from character's like Merry ...
It is these subtle steps to describe the inner characteristics that behinds us to Frodo, Sam, and Gandalf.

I absolutely agree with Jaido's opinion of the "inviting" way we are brought into this three volume masterpiece. It is Chapter One that we begin to see into the minds and hearts of specific characters and, as Jaidoprism7 points out the "child-like whimsy" of a whole race ... hobbit innocence and delight in the simple ... from blowing smoke rings to claiming "second breakfast" ... a theme carried on throughout the book.

It is this first chapter (and the prologue) which sets the tone for many future chapters.

And reading it in front of a warm fire this last of winter ... with my pipe and a hot mug of cider ... reminds me why I love this site.

 



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1. Personally, I don't think the dwarves that visit are part of Thorin's company. I think Tolkien would have mentioned it if they were. But that's just my thought.

2. It wasn't until the third time around that I caught the "express train" reference. I do believe, as uncharacteristic as it is, Tolkien was indeed referring to a real world train - the first and I believe only reference in the series he ever makes to the "real world."

4. Gandalf didn't know Bilbo's ring was the THE Ring; he just thought it was something that Bilbo was obsessing on and needed to be rid of.  And even if Bilbo had taken the Ring to Rivendell, one of the major premises of the story is that hobbits are more immune to the pull of power, ie the Ring, than other races.  I've always kind of understood it that, though never explicitly said, only a hobbit could carry the Ring to Mordor without giving in, and even then, Bilbo was "too far gone" to have been able to carry it for so long without being totally corrupted.  In the end, it had to be Frodo - innocent and uncorrupt.



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1. I would also think that Bilbo's previous companions would have been mentioned, or maybe Gloin would have mentioned the fact at the Council of Elrond; the way things are written, we cannot be sure.

2. I was wondering about this too. It seems more likely that a translator decided that this comparison would be best (then, what did Bilbo use originally?). Or, as an unrooted speculation, depending on how much machinery Sauron was able to introduce in Numenor, maybe they got even to the point of having trains there (but still, 'express' trains would seem a bit too much)... Bilbo studied historical records and would have known quite a lot about Numenor, among other things.

Yet from the external point of view, the reference to the express train was introduced into the text in the second version of the chapter along with Gandalf's coming to the party and fireworks; I believe the prologue has not been written yet and it is hard to say whether Tolkien planned to present the work as a translation of Bilbo's original writings already at that time. I have no idea if retaining of this phrase was a mere overlook or was left to stand intentionally (to puzzle us).

3. It seems clear that on his own Bilbo would not have left the Ring, but at least he did it after much persuasion; as compared to Isildur for example, who could not be convinced (or coerced) by Elrond and Cirdan.

4. That is an interesting question. Bilbo said that he could have brought it to Rivendell a long time ago, when he talks to Frodo there. Seems that although Saruman's spies started paying attention at Shire around the time of Bilbo's departure, they had no idea about the ring and would be unlikely to assault Bilbo, who also was with Dwarves.

And true, the ring was becoming dangerous to Bilbo, but then wouldn't it be dangerous to any other person as well? Why was it fine to give it to Frodo, who also got under the ring's influence? Gandalf knew that this was at least one of the Great rings, not designed for mortals... I suspect that had the Ring been brought to Rivendell at that time, it might have come to the attention of Saruman, and the story would have been altogether different.



-- Edited by Lorelline on Saturday 15th of March 2014 04:01:43 AM

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Lorelline wrote:

And true, the ring was becoming dangerous to Bilbo, but then wouldn't it be dangerous to any other person as well? Why was it fine to give it to Frodo, who also got under the ring's influence? Gandalf knew that this was at least one of the Great rings, not designed for mortals... I suspect that had the Ring been brought to Rivendell at that time, it might have come to the attention of Saruman, and the story would have been altogether different.


 

I think it would have been dangerous to any other person. However, I think it was less dangerous to a Hobbit than to a Man or an Elf which is why Bilbo had it so long without being really corrupted.

As to #4, I think as someone said, they didn't KNOW it was the One Ring yet. I also think that Gandalf recognized Bilbo's unhealthy obsession with it and thought that the sooner Bilbo was rid of it the better. I'm not sure that Bilbo could have gotten it to Rivendell and been able to resist it's power.

#3 I'm not sure how it wasn't Bilbo's free will. Yes, he had to be talked into it, but he could have walked out the door and told Gandalf what he could do with his staff. But, he didn't. I call that free will.



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I think there was a very fine line between free will to leave the Ring and coercion. Gandalf had to literally scare Bilbo, seeming 'to grow tall and menacing'. And when Bilbo was finally leaving the ring, he 'took out the envelope [with the ring], but as he was about to set it by the clock, his hand jerked back, and the packet fell on the floor. Before he could pick it up, the wizard stooped and seized it and set it in its place'. Bilbo gave it up at this point (after 'a spasm of anger passed swiftly' over his face).

And as Gandalf later says, Bilbo was only able to part with the Ring because he began his ownership of the Ring with pity... Although personally to me it is still with theft - before Bilbo escaped from Moria he already understood who the ring belonged to, but still took it, to protect his life arguably - as opposed to murder, a whole lot worse a crime, that Bilbo started his 'ownership'.

Neither Isildur was able to relinquish the Ring (who knows - maybe a Maia could have had more influence than just one Elf and one Half-Elven, against a strong Man; that was nothing like Gandalf the Maia 'against' a hobbit); nor Gollum - but Gollum has been in a possession of the Ring for a time interval comparable to Sauron's (more than a quarter of the latter).


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"Coerced" is an interesting word. It's stronger than "persuaded" but weaker than "forced."  Bilbo had SOME free will, with which I believe he used to relinquish the Ring. As support, I use Gollum as an example. No amount of "coercion" could have force dGollum to part with the Ring, because he was a slave to it. Bilbo had some - and evidently enough - free will to part with it.



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Frodo was the owner of the Ring for about a decade and a year on the road to Mordor and that was enough for the Ring to possess Frodo, as we all read. Bilbo would have had no chance taking the thing to Rivendell having it for 60 years, was it? Knowing that he was going to Rivendell would have been the only thing to motivate Bilbo but if he knew that he was going there to ultimately deliver the Ring...He most likely would have turned aside on the road and gone into hiding with the Ring like Gollum did. He couldn't be trusted. Unless perhaps if Bilbo had an escort, namely Gandalf to keep him on the straight-&-narrow.

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I agree, Teralectus. Thanks for formulating this so clearly. I might have used the word 'forced', it just didn't occur to me. Something like 'Bilbo was forced to voluntarily part with the Ring'; may sound nonsensical, although to me (especially historically in my native language) it describes the situation exactly.

JD7, I would think that Bilbo could have been 'convinced' to part with the Ring there in Rivendell for the Ring to be stored somewhere... Until maybe Saruman has learned about that. Perhaps some furtive suspicions that Gandalf had caused him to be very persistent with Bilbo.

I was further thinking whether Bilbo indeed should be considered a thief and who was the rightful owner of the Ring - finally got totally confused and concluded that legal complications were already a reason strong enough to destroy it.


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By finders-keepers rule, the Ring belongs to Bilbo (and then Frodo).

(Ironically) In the honest sense, Sauron made it by himself for himself and it was taken from him against his will, so technically it belongs to him



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As to how quickly the Ring was taking possession of its keeper/bearer, I would think that the very fact that Bilbo had no idea of its nature but Frodo knew what it was made a huge difference. All those 17 year or so after he inherited it, Frodo kept the Ring but didn't care much about it. Once he learned what kind of thing it was, everything changed. And I think Galadriel's explanations that to use the Ring, one has to train his will to the domination of others may have played a role. At that time (and even earlier) Frodo was already wondering why he could not see others [other Rings, the Three in that context] and know the thoughts of their wearers. So the very idea of the potential power of the One did occur to him; he knew about this power and was tempted much more than Bilbo ever was.

Concerning the ownership, because the One had its own will or something, usual legal considerations might not apply. That aside, it seems that since the One was taken from Sauron at his defeat in war, it became rightfully Isildur's. Long after his death, it was found by Deagol so he would be the owner; but not Smeagol who got it by murder. Bilbo later found the Ring but learned that it was Gollum's; still he didn't return it and that is theft; although Gollum had no rightful claim to it, Bilbo had no idea about that. So his claim to the Ring, and therefore Frodo's, is questionable, and it seems right that Frodo wanted to give it to Aragorn, an Isildur's heir. But Aragorn doesn't take it. Somehow I was thinking that it would have only been fair if the task of bringing the Ring to Orodruin and destroying it there had been Aragorn's not Frodo's. Fair but not effective; Aragorn probably knew he would not be able to destroy it. But then, Isildur too should not be blamed for not destroying it. Not that Frodo destroyed it either.


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    One thing I really enjoyed was how Tolkien painted the hobbit culture in terms of food, smoke, and their communal society.  The pub was a place to end your day ... "pre- supper", "post-supper", or "at supper".  The scenes with the Gaffer at The Ivy Bush and his snide comment to the miller; "Theres some not far away that wouldnt offer a pint of beer to a friend, if they lived in a hole with golden walls", says lots about hobbit hospitality. It sets up the later scene between Sam & Ted Sandyman at The Green Dragon later in the book.

    Tolkien goes on to write about the preparations for the Party with details of the elaborate invitations, food, drink, serving folks, the gate in the party field, the presents, the three official meals (lunch, tea,dinner) and Gandalf's fireworks.

    "The next day more carts rolled up the Hill, and still more carts. There might have been some grumbling about dealing locally, but that very week orders began to pour out of Bag End for every kind of provision, commodity, or luxury that could be obtained in Hobbiton or Bywater or anywhere in the neighbourhood. People became enthusiastic; and they began to tick off the days on the calendar; and they watched eagerly for the postman, hoping for invitations.

 

Before long the invitations began pouring out, and the Hobbiton post-office was blocked, and the Bywater post-office was snowed under, and voluntary assistant postmen were called for. There was a constant stream of them going up the Hill, carrying hundreds of polite variations on Thank you, I shall certainly come.

 

A notice appeared on the gate at Bag End: no admittance except on party business. Even those who had, or pretended to have Party Business were seldom allowed inside. Bilbo was busy: writing invitations, ticking off answers, packing up presents, and making some private preparations of his own. From the time of Gandalfs arrival he remained hidden from view.

 

One morning the hobbits woke to find the large field, south of Bilbos front door, covered with ropes and poles for tents and pavilions. A special entrance was cut into the bank leading to the road, and wide steps and a large white gate were built there. The three hobbit-families of Bagshot Row, adjoining the field, were intensely interested and generally envied. Old Gaffer Gamgee stopped even pretending to work in his garden.

 

The tents began to go up. There was a specially large pavilion, so big that the tree that grew in the field was right inside it, and stood proudly near one end, at the head of the chief table. Lanterns were hung on all its branches. More promising still (to the hobbits mind): an enormous open-air kitchen was erected in the north corner of the field. A draught of cooks, from every inn and eating-house for miles around, arrived to supplement the dwarves and other odd folk that were quartered at Bag End. Excitement rose to its height.

 

Then the weather clouded over. That was on Wednesday the eve of the Party. Anxiety was intense. Then Thursday, September the 22nd, actually dawned. The sun got up, the clouds vanished, flags were unfurled and the fun began.

 

Bilbo Baggins called it a party, but it was really a variety of entertainments rolled into one. Practically everybody living near was invited. A very few were overlooked by accident, but as they turned up all the same, that did not matter. Many people from other parts of the Shire were also asked; and there were even a few from outside the borders. Bilbo met the guests (and additions) at the new white gate in person. He gave away presents to all and sundry - the latter were those who went out again by a back way and came in again by the gate. Hobbits give presents to other people on their own birthdays. Not very expensive ones, as a rule, and not so lavishly as on this occasion; but it was not a bad system. Actually in Hobbiton and Bywater every day in the year it was somebodys birthday, so that every hobbit in those parts had a fair chance of at least one present at least once a week. But they never got tired of them.

 

On this occasion the presents were unusually good. The hobbit-children were so excited that for a while they almost forgot about eating. There were toys the like of which they had never seen before, all beautiful and some obviously magical. Many of them had indeed been ordered a year before, and had come all the way from the Mountain and from Dale, and were of real dwarf-make.

 

When every guest had been welcomed and was finally inside the gate, there were songs, dances, music, games, and, of course, food and drink. There were three official meals: lunch, tea, and dinner (or supper). But lunch and tea were marked chiefly by the fact that at those times all the guests were sitting down and eating together. At other times there were merely lots of people eating and drinking - continuously from elevenses until six-thirty, when the fireworks started.

 

The fireworks were by Gandalf: they were not only brought by him, but designed and made by him; and the special effects, set pieces, and flights of rockets were let off by him. But there was also a generous distribution of squibs, crackers, backarappers, sparklers, torches, dwarf-candles, elf-fountains, goblin-barkers and thunder-claps. They were all superb. The art of Gandalf improved with age.

 

There were rockets like a flight of scintillating birds singing with sweet voices. There were green trees with trunks of dark smoke: their leaves opened like a whole spring unfolding in a moment, and their shining branches dropped glowing flowers down upon the astonished hobbits, disappearing with a sweet scent just before they touched their upturned faces. There were fountains of butterflies that flew glittering into the trees; there were pillars of coloured fires that rose and turned into eagles, or sailing ships, or a phalanx of flying swans; there was a red thunderstorm and a shower of yellow rain; there was a forest of silver spears that sprang suddenly into the air with a yell like an embattled army, and came down again into the Water with a hiss like a hundred hot snakes. And there was also one last surprise, in honour of Bilbo, and it startled the hobbits exceedingly, as Gandalf intended. The lights went out. A great smoke went up. It shaped itself like a mountain seen in the distance, and began to glow at the summit. It spouted green and scarlet flames. Out flew a red-golden dragon - not life-size, but terribly life-like: fire came from his jaws, his eyes glared down; there was a roar, and he whizzed three times over the heads of the crowd. They all ducked, and many fell flat on their faces. The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion.

That is the signal for supper! said Bilbo." (The Lord Of The Rings,The Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter I ~ "A Long -Expected Party", pgs 26-28)


Indeed ... I wish I could have been there ... I might grow wide enough to give Will Whitfoot a run for Mayor.
And after Bilbo's disappearance under The Party Tree and the dark and serious confrontation with Gandalf ... the gifts (packages) he left behind has Tolkien's subtle and sarcastic wit which brings back the humorous tone set by the Party and what happens after ... to be brought back again to the dark, mysterious, and serious notes of Gandalf suspicious dounbts of Bilbo's (now Frodo's) ring.

There is just so much in this chapter that gives us a glimpse of the author's character ... it reminds me of something he is quoted to have said ... "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." ~ J.R.R. Tolkien

These are just a few thoughts after reading The Lord Of The Rings,The Fellowship of the Ring, Book One, Chapter I ~ "A Long -Expected Party".

 
  



-- Edited by Bear on Saturday 15th of March 2014 07:07:45 AM

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Tolkien does really nail the hospitality and generous nature of the Hobbits in the first Chapter. Every one knows everyone else and communities were close knit. The entire rustic feel of the Hobbits verses the rest of the characters in the book also give a huge impression of nostalgia for the simple-life, especially to read their (the Hobbit's) words in the company of (let's say) Elrond, Gandalf, or even the Rohirrim. They seem to have their own simple measure that keeps their stature in the mind of a reader; small, helpless (somewhat), out of place in a big world.

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As for who the Ring truly belongs to - Isildur did defeat Sauron and thus, by right of conquest, the Ring would be his. But if the "right of conquest" concept can be applied here, it must also be applied when Sméagol kills Deagol and takes the Ring by force.  However, did Isildur not write something to the effect that "the Ring will forever be an heirloom of my kingdom...those who follow in my path are bound to its fate, etc."? This sounds as close to a will as I've ever seen in the books.  If the Ring was rightfully Isildur's and he put in writing that it belongs to his house and should be passed to his descendants, then I believe Aragorn is the rightful owner.

On another note, a lot of my friends that have tried to read the LotR could not get past the first chapter; it's long and not all the exciting. But reading all this, it seems that it is arguably one of the most important chapters in the series in the sense that it shows the significance of HOBBITS being the ones to carry the Ring.



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Shifting gears, does anyone want to take up leadership for the Chapter 2 discussion? We can stay on this thread now but I think we should start the next chapter sometime this week. Does anyone second?



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I've been away for several days which accounts for my spotty participation. I think I'll be gone again for a few days. All that to say, I'll have to skip this one which stinks since it's one of my favorite chapters.



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Mar 19, 2014
To me there is a difference between Isildur taking the ring after Sauron is defeated in war (not by Isildur but he is Elendil's heir) - this seems 'lawful', but Smeagol's taking the ring by murder of Deagol isn't lawful at all. But I guess indeed the concept of ownership is hardy applicable here.

I wonder what actually was special about hobbits, why were they so tough and resistant to the evil of the Ring?

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Lórellinë

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Posts: 753
Date: Mar 20, 2014
Lorelline said: I wonder what actually was special about hobbits, why were they so tough and resistant to the evil of the Ring?

It's been said from many different sources within the stories of Middle-earth that Hobbits cherish simpler things and care nothing for having power. "Food and cheer" above hoarded gold. This is another trait that makes Bilbo's decision to use the Arkenstone as a bartering tool in "The Hobbit". The Arkenstone was beautiful but he didn't desire it at all. In other words Hobbits cannot be bought off by earthly treasures or promises of power.

And if your next question is: Why then was Smeagol tempted by the Ring, if Hobbits don't care about these type of things?...

If the Ring were presented at once to every Hobbit in Hobbiton many would be tempted by its evil allure as was Smeagol. It just depends on the Hobbit. Ted Sandyman would covet it while Samwise not so much...each to his own measure. The one saving grace for Bilbo was that he found it quite by chance and therefore skipped over that portion of desiring the Ring and went straight to carrying it more so than possessing it.

And if your next question is: What makes you so clever?

I was just born this way and thank you...

And if your next question is: Is there anymore like me at home?

No....I broke the mold...

You ask a lot of questions........lol...Gosh!

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Haldir of Lorien - Rank 6
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Posts: 812
Date: Mar 20, 2014

It's too bad they broke the mold Jaido biggrin

I'm wondering about if knowing about the ring's power makes a difference too. I mean Bilbo had no idea and he found it so he's a little more resistant to the lure. But, the Wise knew about it and therefore it was a greater danger for them. If one of the Wise had found it, not realising what it was, would they have been overcome by it's evil right away or would they have resisted for a while too? Or, would they have recognized it immediately?

Random musings for a Thursday afternoon.



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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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Posts: 383
Date: Mar 20, 2014
Well, Gandalf at least didn't recognize it despite even having Narya; Saruman might have recognized it, and as to Elrond, he has seen it, so yes I guess; yet others I am not sure, seems the Three do not inform their wearers/keepers on the proximity of the One? But Gandalf restrains himself from even touching it while not recognizing...

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Lórellinë

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
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Posts: 753
Date: Mar 21, 2014

I think that the wise would have been more sensitive to the Ring's power. Like they would have gleaned (especially upon wearing it) that there was something particularly powerful about it. Their province after all is magic or power (we shall say) and all the lore of the ages....so they definitely had knowledge of the Ring or Rings of Power at least..."there are many magic rings in the world, Bilbo, and none of them should be used lightly..." paraphrasing Gandalf here.

While a lesser creature would have noticed the disappearing part and thought it pretty cool.....the wise would feel a greater surge of power (power to each in his own measure) and been aware almost immediately. The real question is: once the Ring is put on by one of the Wise, is he or she instantly trapped? OR ensnared...with no hope of resisting?

And don't forget that Gandalf handles the Ring quite casually, going as far as looking through it and examining it in his hand. He has Frodo hand it to him then he tosses it in the fire then grabs it again...he's a mad man!

But I think the real danger would have been for Gandalf to handle it after it was offered to him as his own...therefore possessing it willingly despite all of his knowledge of it.

Awesome.....any word on Chapter 2 yet, people?



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Slaves of udun
Status: Offline
Posts: 84
Date: Mar 25, 2014

I think Lorelline has volunteered for Chapter 2. If everyone agrees, I think discussion questions should be posted Thursday or Friday, which gives us two days to read it, or the weekend if the week is busy.



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"And Morgoth came."

Guard of Armenelos - Rank 4
Status: Offline
Posts: 753
Date: Mar 26, 2014
That works for me.....I think the more organized this is the smoother it will run.

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