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Topic: hurin and the nirnaeth

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Dwarves - Rank 1
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Date: May 1, 2007
hurin and the nirnaeth

in the nirnaeth arnoediad it says that hurin cast aside his shield and wilded an axe. it says that his axe smoked in the black blood of the TROLL-GUARD. so hurin didnt fight gothmog, he fouhght a troll? like a troll in lotr?weirdfaceweirdfaceweirdface 
        
 also it says evry time hurin SLEW he cried...does this mean he slew orcs or something there or everytime he turned. (slew means:1. past tense of slay/kill. 2. turn around quickly)                  

-- Edited by dwarf guy at 08:51, 2007-05-01

-- Edited by dwarf guy at 15:02, 2007-05-01

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Its pretty simple. Hurin fought the troll guard of Gothmog - the trolls that guarded Gothmog.

Secondly slew always means 'kill' in Tolkien's works.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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Date: May 1, 2007
This concerns the great passage in the '77 Silmarillion...

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him off to Angband with mockery.' The Silmarillion

Recently I have comes across more than one opinion that the mighty Húrin slew seventy Trolls here (or is said to have done so). In the past I have read this, however, as not all that were slain here were Trolls (necessarily).

This Troll reference is a bit interesting. In The Grey Annals it was said concerning Húrin that... 'Then he cast aside his shield and wielded his axe two-handed; and it is sung that in that last stand he himself slew an hundred of the Orcs. But they took him alive at last...' JRRT

Similarly one hundred Orcs in Tolkien's earlier Quenta Silmarillion (HME V). Christopher Tolkien explains that the text of chapter twenty in the published Silmarillion was primarily derived from the story in The Grey Annals, but elements were introduced from the old chapter sixteen in Quenta Silmarillion, and also from a third text, that: 'was intended as a component in the long prose Tale of the Children of Húrin (the Narn)'

The Trolls appear to be now confirmed as Tolkien-written, according to the new Children of Hurin just published.

Anyway, am I alone in my interpretation of the passage as published in the '77 Silmarillion, that not all were necessarily Trolls?

Not to take anything away from Húrin! and 'it was sung' might be a consideration... but I dunno... I always thought that many Orcs were included here (before I had the volumes of HME to consider), and wondered if anyone else read this similarly.

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Of course it also makes sense they were not all trolls, this is never clearly specified, though to me it does seem more likely they were

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Tom Bombadil
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Date: May 1, 2007
Húrin and the Nirnaeth Arnoediad

Dwarf guy, were you thinking that Húrin cried? Like in the sense that he shed tears?
Our Scholar in Residence Galin did a great job explaining it.

Galin, I got the 1977 Sil as well, and it does say orcs as well in my book. So I can see why it would be both orcs and trolls in that guard.

-- Edited by ArwenLegolas at 21:41, 2007-05-01

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Thorin Oakenshield - Rank 6
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Date: May 3, 2007
RE: hurin and the nirnaeth

I seriously doubt Hurin slew seventy Trolls.  I see nothing in the passage to indicate this. I quote again:

"'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive..."

I have bolded the part of the text I am refering to. It says that Hurin's axe withered in the blood of the troll guard and he cried each time he slew, but this doesn't mean: 'and he cried each time he slew the troll guard'. They are two different statements. One saying how his axe withered, the other stating that he cried each time he slew.

Plus on a more logical note - I doubt Gothmog had as many as seventy trolls guarding him!


-- Edited by Bilbo Baggins at 18:25, 2007-05-03

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Being lies with Eru - Rank 1
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I don't think a troll guard of seventy for Gothmog would be too far reached. He was the High Captain of Angband afterall, and one held in high esteem by Morgoth.

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Rohirrim of Edoras - Rank 4
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Certainly if there was to be a guard of that magnitude, it would have been at that battle.

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Fundin, Lord of Moria - Rank 5
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I note that when JRRT had Hurin slaying the hundred orcs (amazing in itself) the wording is clear (Grey Annals version). As for the revised passage however, I read it as Bilbo does...

... and I think that JRRT reduced 100 orcs to 70 'slain' (at this point) because he had introduced 'some' Trolls, not because he had introduced 70 Trolls rather than 100 Orcs. The feat is arguably greater now (greater than when it was 100 Orcs), even if one imagines, say 'only' 10 Trolls were involved.

Just my opinion, no slight to the great Hurin intended in any case wink

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Tom Bombadil
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Date: Nov 10, 2008
Well, Galin, as always your comments are sharp as a tack. It does not take away from Hurin's Prowess. I would like to see anybody go and kill even 10 trolls, or 10 orcs all by themselves.

And welcome to our newby, Master Of Doom. Welcome

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Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

 
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