I have often pondered on who would be dubbed the 'King of Men'...
The Elves have Ingwe as there High King for all realm of the Elves in Arda and the Dwarves have Durin likewise. But Men do not seem to have one. They have many great Men but who do you think could take lordship over them all in all the Ages of Arda?
Men would never agree on one Man, because as all desire power, none would be willing to agree The only way such a title could have been created is if a Man had conquered all other lands inhabited my Men, which was never achieved
the only one I can think of is Elros. The first true King of the greatest realm of Men. From Numenor onwards I suppose the time of men came to be so I suppose that the first king of that realm onwards should be a prime candidate.
hmm...as far as Kings of Numenor are concerned I would rather choose Aldarion during his reign, Numenoreans sailed to many distant lands and corners of the world, and in that time Numenor controlled many of ME's coasts. They also had helped the locals who were afraid of the shadow in the East and who now also served Numenor.
Hmm I would not say Aldarion TM. He is just one in a long line of kings of Numenor. I woukld second Elros or Perhaps Elendil becuase he was High King of the Numenoreans of Arnor and Gondor which he established.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
I would have to agree with Glorefindel, TM, and maybe even throw another name in here for good measure. What about Eärendil? He would have made a fine Head of State. Going to the Valar and begging them for help for the Humans of Arda showed he cared and was willing to go through great lengths and many sacrifices to get there. He didn't know whether he'd be killed or received by the valar. It must have gone through his mind on the journey there. Thoughts like:" What will happen when I set my foot on the Undying Land? Will I disintegrate or will a detachment of Elves in full armor take me and put me in Detention?"
-- Edited by ArwenLegolas at 21:42, 2007-05-16
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Following on from what Glorfindel said... I believe I have seen a quote somewhere saying that Elendil was King of both Arnor and Gondor. But I have also seen quotes saying that Isildur and Anarion were the Kings of Gondor. Am I right in thinking that Elendil was Over King of both realms?
Bilbo, you are quite right. Elendil was High King of both Gondor and Arnor. He was the noblest of the Dúnadain, and noblest to survive the fall of Númenor. With four ships he was blown to Middle-earth by the storms of the "Change of the World" and landed in Lindon. When Aragorn chanted his Coronation Oath :" Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien, Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta." this is what he was saying. But in case you don't speak Elvish, it means" Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place I will abide, and my heirs, unto the Ending of the World!"
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
We know of four Kings of both realms: Elendil, Isildur, Aragorn and Eldarion. Isildur never was only king of Gondor, he was king of both realms. Many, including Gondorians in later ages, misinterpreted his act of leaving the Southern Realm in the rule of his brother's son as an act of completely giving his ruling power of it up, which actually never happened. This argument was for example used by Gondorians to deny Arvedui his request to become king. He only decided to live in Arnor, in which case he needed someone to take care of Gondor for him.
islidur was going to become the high king but was killed I would say that Elendil is the most important man and islidur and anarion were not kings until elendil past.
I suppsoe there is an element of truth in that Kinganarion. You cannot have more than one king of a realm. Isildur and Anarion were only rulers of Gondor, the King was Elendil and as such they could not become kings until he passed away.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
From all ages? Then it would definetly be Húrin. Great in strenght and great in mind. Laughed and mocked Melkor himself and didn't surrender. Also Húrin was greatly respected by elves so i would give my vote for him. Men in early ages were like it says in Silmarillion and men after that were fading in power and glory: 'In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty; and those who had dwelt in Valinor and looked upon the Powers as much surpassed the Dark Elves in these things as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race.'
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I am Tulkas the Valiant who laughs ever in the face of Good or Evil.
He was indeed important...but not only in a positive way. And this because it was because of Hurin that both Gondolin and Doriath fell. By approaching Gondolin and cursing its people he allowed Melkor guess the position of the hidden city, and by bringing the Nauglamir to Doriath he also sealed the fate of the kingdom. I agree that these things were done after years of torture and pain, but still this needs to be also mentioned in my opinion. Nice to see you again btw.
"But it is said that Húrin would not live thereafter, being bereft of all purpose and desire, and cast himself at last into the western sea; and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men." The Sil
"And he took up a long sword that lay there and broke it before the eyes of Húrin, and a splinter wounded his face; but Húrin did not blench."
Firstly we can see that Hurin is the mightiest of Men but we don't know if he is the important. Secondly I put the second quote in to show Hurin's endurance. Didn't even flinch when a shard of a sword hit in the face!
By the way - nice to see you to Lord. Hope you stick around.
Hey look everybody! There is an Admin who is actually posting. Great to see you. What happened? Got a Poke from Eru? I am sure glad to meet you. I am Arwen Legolas. And it is a pleasure meeting you Lord Tulkas
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
ArwenLegolas - And it's pleasure to meet you too. And a poke from Eru? No but i will poke you of that posting comment. There's no reason why these issues should be brought ouf from the place where they're supposed to stay.
But enough of that one and let's get back to the issue at hand. Yes Húrin was a great fighter and therefore i gave my vote to him. Why? because in all cultures leaders or Kings have usually been fighters who have proven themselves in battlefield before becoming a leader. Húrin was mighty among men and he was a rolemodel to people near him (also elves kept him in great glory) who respected him not just that he could fight but as a man who was with them. Might - I agree but name someone else who would have taken that torture and pain than Húrin?
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I am Tulkas the Valiant who laughs ever in the face of Good or Evil.
Unfortunately I can't provide you with another example, for the simple reason that nobody else ever experienced that. Though I am sure that others might have done the same in that situation, for example Beren. The courage that he showed during the Quenta Silmarillion make me think he would have been likely to take this time of torture. But as already stated, I can't prove that, since there are no other examples.
Looking at Lord Tulkas, Arwen Legolas blushes at his justified poke and wishes to express her apologies. " You are absolutely right. I take full responsibility." Reaches out and offers her hand in apology and friendship.
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Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo! Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow! Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
aragorn can be the kingof men because in one life time he regained all the land of gondor and arnor and the kings of old took hundreds of years to do that AND made peace with gondors foes.
That is true but when he became King and fortified and unified Arnor and Gondor once more he didn't have any opposition. Its easy to establish and maintain borders when they are not being fought over or contradicted.
This topic is really interesting; though long ago abandoned, I thought I'd speak my mind on the issue.
All the posts before mine make sense. The premise of there being a single Man to be thought King over all is the weak point however, because Men are totally different in nature than Elves or Dwarves. But for the sake of discussion:
With Dwarves it is simple, because they were made by Aule and not in any way amended by Eru (as stated in 'The Silmarillion'), and because of this, they were very much united in ideology, skill, scope and culture.
With Elves it is a bit different. Mouth of Sauron said that they have Ingwe of the Vanyar as High King. I think however this is not really correct. Though it is implied that Ingwe was the first Elf to awake, we must take into account the sundering of their race very early on. Surely the Eldar consider him their king, after a fashion at least. But do the Avari, who never saw the Light, and who evolved very differently, also take him to be their king? What did he do for them?
Now to turn to the most important Man.
I guess Elros could claim such kingship based on his being the chosen king of all Edain, who were the most important of the Atani in the First Age. Yet Elros had a very peaceful reign, so we can only speculate how well he'd rule a people in a world in turmoil.
Here I think comes to the scene Aragorn, who managed to unite two kingdoms and had a pivotal role in the War of the Ring. As such he surely is worthy of lordship over Men in any circumstances.
Hurin's valour is extraordinary, and his lordship of Dor-lómin may indicate that he could well rule over larger lands and more numerous peoples.
But the person I would choose to be the lord of all Men is Ar-Pharazon. Yet this nomination must be explained. First of all, he was an extremely potent leader, said in 'The Line of Elros' to be 'the mightiest King of Numenor'. His deeds are of course condemnable, but it is said in 'The Silmarillion' that Ar-Pharazon and his army were entombed under falling hills by Eru, there to await the Final Battle and the Day of Doom, and so to repay their misdeeds.
Seeing how the Dagor Dagorath, the final battle, will be the most important of all that Arda had or will know, and that Ar-Pharazon would be forgiven for his sins in the Second Age of the Sun, he will be a likely candidate to rule over Men at that time. But again this is doubtful - since after that there will be the Second Music, and if all evil is amended, then there will be no more need of kings as we know them, as every soul will live in the glory of the True God (Eru), whom they most surely will take as their absolute lord.
-- Edited by John Wain on Friday 11th of February 2011 05:23:39 PM
Hmmm Al-Pahazon ... NOT A FAN lol - guy scares me, actually Moral leadership: EPIC fail Military leadership: fail Management of a civilization: well Numenore WAS great until he showed up ... Epic Fail I can only imagine - with an advisor like Sauron in place - that the day to day lives of people were not so splendid.
If Sauron wanted a way to convince other men that the men of Westernesse were cruel and evil ... well what a perfect example! Nevermind that fact that his hand was in it ... of course that wouldn't need to be mentioned ...
As far as importance ... well I could give you that .... important in the WORST WAY. Important in triggering epic badness.
If half-elves were allowed I'd go with Earendil - especially since folk still called on his name as a star for ages after his time.
Otherwise I'd go with Beren or Aragorn. Both overcame monstruously bad foes. Aragorn managed to do with it without taking out too many of his friends along the way so I would probably go with him.
So ... if it is open to half-elves, my answer would be Earendil. If not then it would be Aragorn for my vote. I feel he is clearly better than Al-Pharazon. Aragorn outwitted Sauron whereas Sauron outwitted Al-Pharazon. Aragorn united kingdoms whereas Al-Pharazon got his civilization sunk.
Maybe part of the reason that it is so hard to pick out a man as the ultimate king among men has to do with their relationship to elves as teachers and leaders - especially among the men in the west of Middle Earth.
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There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. You certainly usually find something, if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after. -J.R.R. Tolkien (The Hobbit)
I wholeheartedly agree to your points, Meimei. I never said, nor will ever say, that Ar-Pharazon was good. But he was outwitted by Sauron because he was too proud in thinking he could keep him a hostage. If he had not wanted to conquer Valinor and get immortality, then perhaps his deeds of freeing Middle-earth from Sauron would have been deemed fortunate. For this reason I said he could rule Men after the Dagor Dagorath, when he will have seen the folly of his former self, and be forgiven his sins.
Ar-Pharazon of the 'Akallabeth' period could never qualify.
i dont believe Ar-Pharazon is even worthy of being in this contest. because of him Numenor fell. the island was obliterated and the world changed. because he contested the Valar. he cannot, in my mind, be considered the "king of men" nor a great or even good king at all.
now, we have these candidates; Elros, Hurin, Aragorn, and Elendil. i belive Aragorn was a great king. an amazing example of men at there finest, played his hand in the war of the ring incredible well. but do i believe him to be in the same discusion as the other men here? no. not in my mind at least. of these men i believe Elendil and Hurin can be considered the greatest of the kings of men. Elendil i believe to be the greatest. He was the one of all the nummenorians that left Ar-Pharazon and went to middle-earth. he knew defying the Valar was blasphomy and led his men away from such nonesense. he then led the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor to great hights. he was the king of men. only at the hands of Melkors greatest servent did he fall. he overcame Saurons armies and fought him. he fell to the greatest power in middle-earth at that time. but how many men could have even stood to Sauron? how many fled before his might and deadly mace? were it not for Elendil (and yes i know it was Isildur that cut the ring from Saurons finger) Sauron would have stood tall that day. Elendil and Gil-Galed both gave there lives for there people that day. and none can take that from them.
in short my list for the king of men.. Elendil at 1 Hurin close 2nd Elros 3rd and Aragorn at 4 and many many kings later Ar-Pharazon.
-- Edited by Huan the great hound on Saturday 27th of August 2011 03:51:05 AM
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
Huan the great hound wrote:i dont believe Ar-Pharazon is even worthy of being in this contest. because of him Numenor fell. the island was obliterated and the world changed. because he contested the Valar. he cannot, in my mind, be considered the "king of men" nor a great or even good king at all.
I think it's a matter of seperating virtue from power. If by 'important' we mean powerful (the two are different but let's go with that for now) then Pharazon was the most powerful individual outside of Valinor in terms of what he controlled (there were beings like Sauron and the Balrog etc which had more inherent power unto themselves of course). If by 'importance' we imply a virtuous element, as in who was closer to Iluvatar or something like that then Pharazon definitely wouldn't be near the top.
mos ~ I like your post ... since when has power always been good ... Sauron still messed with this punky dude! And when has good always been important ... So what if he wrecked the world ... was what the Valar did good? But no question that it (and he) were important ...
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit Called or uncalled, God is present
Hmm well the original question on this threas was MoS asking who of all the men could be dubbed the "king of men" and that is very different then who was most important. I know the name of the thread is "the most iportant man?" But that is not the question asked at the begining.
-- Edited by Huan the great hound on Sunday 28th of August 2011 02:17:59 PM
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But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom,nor devil's art nor beast-strength, could overthrow Huan of Valinor;
