I just thought this would be an interesting topic.
I alwas considered that the top four were; Ancalagon the black, Glaurung father of dragons, Scatha the worm, and Smoug the golden ( not in that order).
That is an interesting question Gil-galad. I would say that Smaug, although a great dragon, cannot be really compared to the others.
I don't know much about Scatha the Worm so cannot really provide much opinion about this particular dragon.
As for the other two I believe Tolkien says that 'Ancalagon the Black, greatest of all winged dragons' - if he meant that Ancalagon was the greatest of all dragons then he would not have said 'winged'. So in my opinion I would say Glaurung, father of dragons.
I would say Ancalagon, Glaurung, Smaug and Scatha. Indeed, Smaug was not so strong, but it is said by Gandalf that he is the greatest dragon of his time. Considering the fact that Scatha and Smaug co-existed for a period of time, it is clear Smaug was stronger. And also, it is clear that Ancalagon and Glaurung are stronger then the other 2. I personally say Ancalagon was stronger. Why? 1. He had wings, giving him an advantage, if Glaurung had had wings he would not have been killed by Turin. 2. Melkor had improved the dragons since Glaurung. 3. Lastly, I think there is a quote somewhere in LOTR saying that the one ring could not be destroyed by the fire of any forge, nor by any dragons, not even Ancalagon if he would have still been living in that time. By saying "not even Ancalagon" is for me a clear proof that he was the best ever.
Im going to have to say that the greatest of dragons was Glaurung, then Ancalagon, then Smaug then Scatha.
The quote from MoS does indicate that Ancalagon was the greatest winged dragon, which implies that he was not the greatest dragon. That leaves only Glaurung to compete against.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
so why was Glaurung better Celethil? I wouldn't say that because he is mentioned more often makes him stronger. and if he was the greatest winged dragon, why could that not mean that he was the greatest dragon as well...???
I can only assume he was better because he was the Father of Dragons. If Ancalagon was the greatest of dragons then there is no need to specifically mention that he is the greatest of winged dragons.
Note that Glaurung is not the Father of Wingless Dragons.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
not necessarily indeed, I know what you mean, but considering that Melkor had created many winged dragons, perhaps Tolkien felt it necessary to say that Ancalagon was the greatest. And please note that, as I said, Ancalagon was an improved version, he had probably several "updates", which made him much harder to kill... he destroyed all of Thangorodrim when he died...!!!
It is not necessary, but given what we know about Tolkien's writing style it is highly unlikely that he would have mentioned 'winged' if not specific to that group.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
indeed, it makes sense in both cases problem is greatest of winged dragons doesn't mean greatest dragon but Father of Dragons doesn't mean greatest dragon either but as I said, Ancalagon had updates Melkor made in time better Orcs, better trolls, and why not better dragons.
I believe that this dragon question is something that we can't agree with. Everyone has own opinion and there's no debating in that. Ancalagon and Glaurung, which one was the greatest? Do we wanna know about size, evil, powers and so on? If so, then it's hard because both had own 'skills' etc. But in my opinion the first of every race, kind is mightiest. There's also intelligence that determines greatness: Glaurung was more intelligent (opinion based to books). One quote that Glaurung possessed something more than just physical power etc..
'But Nienor, being thrown by her steed, yet unhurt, made her way back to Amon Ethir, there to await Mablung, and came thus above the reek into sunlight; and looking westward she stared straight into the eyes of Glaurung, whose head lay upon the hill-top. Her will strove with him for a whiile, but he put forth his power, and having learned who she was he constrained her to gaze into his eyes, and he laid a spell of utter darkness and forgetfulness upon her, so that she could remember nothing that had ever befallen her, nor her own name, nor the name of any other thing; and for many days she could neither hear, nor see, nor stir by her own will. Then Glaurung left her standing alone upon Amon Ethir, and went back to Nargothrond.'Sil
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I doubt that we can say that the first of every race was the strongest. The only other similar case would be the Dwarves. As I said, I don't think that just because Glaurung is described more and mentioned more often, he should be the greatest dragon ever. If you think about it Ancalagon is mentioned only a few times, as the whole story of the last battle is very concise, not much detail of how the Host of the West won.
I'm going to agree with TM on the first of each race being its greatest. That happens occasionally in Tolkien's world, but is far from the norm.
As for Ancalagon. I still think the earlier post is quite sufficient. Whether you think Glaurung was mightier or not. Ancalagon was the greatest of winged dragons, and I don't think that Tolkien was that sloppy with language.
As I have learned over and over in this forum; if Tolkien's thoughts changed on this later in his life, I am unaware of it.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
all because the final battle is barely described of course it would make sense that the greater dragon would receive more attention in the book, but in this case I believe it is only a matter of chance that Ancalagon is not so often mentioned
"Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."
NOT EVEN ANCALAGON THE BLACK
Gandalf, who let us remember is very wise doesn't say not even Glaurung, but not even Ancalagon, thus clearly implying that Ancalagon was stronger.
"...Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host", again implying that Ancalagon was very strong
As I said, the first quote clearly shows that Ancalagon was stronger. Maybe Glaurung was more famous, but certaintly not as strong.
Firstly Gandalf says 'Not even Ancalagon the Black could destroy the One Ring...' - OK so he says Ancalagon...Big deal. Thats not to say that Gandalf thinks he is greater than Glaurung he is simply giving Ancalagon as an example of a very mighty dragon - it no way implies that Ganfdalf believes Glaurung is not as strong.
Secondly -
TM wrote:
"...Earendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host", again implying that Ancalagon was very strong"
Er...We know Ancalagon was strong TM we need no quotes to prove that. And he was the mightiest Dragon in the host becuase Glaurung was dead by then.
I have to agree with MoS on the timing of that second quote. It was after Glaurung was dead. The closest quote I have seen to compare the two is the one that mentions Ancalagon being the mightiest winged dragon.
Regarding Gandalf's quote, it does support the fact that Ancalagon was a might fire breathing dragon, but not that he was the most powerful dragon ever.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
I have to agree with MoS and Celethil about the timing of the second quote. And on the first quote. I think that Ancalagon was physicaly stronger, where as Glaurung was more inteligent and had more magical power. Of course we didn't really see much of Ancalagon to compare with.
how can you all say that considering the fact YOU HAVE NOT EVEN A SINGLE QUOTE to say that Glaurung was smarter. Futile? Perhaps, as far as you are concerned. But all you use to prove to me that Glaurung is better is the fact that he was the Father of Dragons. Let's face it, neither side can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are correct.
When are we ever told about the intelligence of Ancalagon? All we ever seem to here about Glaurung is how cunning he was and how he was utterly filled with Morgoth's malice and how great in phisical stature he was and how much damage he laid down upon the Northlands of Beleriand. All we here about Ancalagon is Tolkien saying 'Mightiest of the winged dragons' - hence he was not mightiest of all dragons as no doubt Tolkien would have stated and the only other contender is Glaurung - So your outvoted TM...
However, TM is right there is no proof of either one being greater than the other one. Sorry about the no quote post. I heard a few people quote and post this already so I didn't find it nesisary for me to repost it.
if you read my posts more carefully you would know why we know so little of Ancalagon as I said, Tolkien didn't want to give us much detail of this battle, which I personally find a strange decision, considering it was probably the greatest battle ever, except the Dagor Dagorath anyway, to make sure you understood my point here is a quote from the Sil:
"of the march of the host of the Valar little is said in any tale..."
I know there's not much on Ancalagon. I also know there's tons on Glaurung. And, even though Morgoth saved the winged dragons for the last battle, there were not many wingless dragons left to fight in the battle.
Glaurung was killed by one of the strongest men ever. And even then he had to sneak up on him. Ancalagon was killed by a half-elf.
I think that most will agree that Turin would beet Earendil in a one on one fight. And Turin still had to sneak up on him. I don't know how you can argue that Ancalagon was more powerful.
you just said a lot of things that make no sense... so you're trying to tell me it is harder to kill a dragon by sneaking up on him and just attacking him and killing him rather then fighting the dragon up in the sky until after a long and hard battle you make him crush to his ruin? don't take it is an offense but that makes no sense to me and the part about Men and Half-Elves and Turin and Earendil made again no sense. so you're trying to say Men are better then Half-Elves, and that Turin is better then Earendil... this is firstly, VERY DEBATABLE, and secondly, it is not the thread to start arguing about that
you know what...the debate has been going on too long now I'll just give you my reasons, very simple and clear
1. It is made clear in LOTR that Ancalagon was more powerful then Glaurung, at least as far as their fire breath is concerned 2. Ancalagon was made by Melkor AFTER Glaurung In time Melkor improved the design of all his minions, just like Sauron improved his minions before the War of the Ring. Clearly, this means that he improved dragons as well, meaning that Ancalagon wa better then his predecessor Glaurung. 3. Again, to support point 2, Ancalagon had as I said "upgrades", such as his wings, or his improved fire breath 4. Ancalagon is said to have been able to drive back the Host of the West, something that Glaurung couldn't have done in my opinion. Remember, Glaurung was driven back by the Dwarves of Belegost, while Ancalagon was able to drive back all the Host of the Valar
Ok, and in order to address your 2 main reasons: 1. Ancalagon was indeed named "greatest of the winged dragons", but this doesn't directly show he hasn't the greatest dragon ever as well. As I said, I think Tolkien added the word winged to show that Ancalagon was one of the new and better dragons, with wings, and also to make the reader understand why Earendil had to fly around in his ship in order to kill Ancalagon 2. Ancalagon is not mentioned often because he existed for only a brief period of time...he died in the first battle he ever fought in, but in the same time the greatest battle except for the Dagor Dagorath
So, there you have my opinion on it, really clear. I am looking forward to seeing your direct answer to what I have just said.
TM- Given your usual attention to detail and your research, I find it unusual that you would state that "clearly this means that he improved dragons as well, meaning that Ancalagon was better then his predecessor Glaurung".
As for driving back the hosts of the west by Ancalagon, I am unsure as to the origin of that. You have stated several times that there is little detail known about the War of Wrath and your own previous quote is at odds with the notion of Ancalagon driving back the hosts of the west. Earendil slays Ancalagon and though he has a Silmaril, I hardly count him as equal to the Hosts of the West.
"But he loosed upon his foes the last desperate assault that he had prepared, and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire." - Silm.
This shows that Ancalagon was among the fleet of dragons that attacked, but hardly states that Ancalagon was the primary source of dread.
So if we look back at your points, I would be willing to concede that you are correct on point 1.
Points 2 and 3 are speculative, and the conclusion of point 4 is false.
All that said, we still have no concrete proof either way as to which one was greater in might.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
I looked back on my last post and your right TM. It was not clear what I ment and it really was not that black and white anyway. I didn't really want this much of a debate I just thought that it would be an interesting topic. Sorry for all the truble.
2 is indeed more or less speculative, but point 3 is a fact. Ancalagon did have some features Glaurung didn't have as far as point 4 is concerned, I know that is not mentioned in the Sil, but I think in HOME, though not sure where ..."and so sudden and ruinous was the onset that the host of the Valar was driven back"
Point 2 is speculative and is the topic of this thread. Point 3 is a reiteration of point 1 which I conceded, and then mentioning wings to support point 2. I would suggest that wings do not make Ancalagon superior to the greatest of dragons, otherwise he would not be called the greatest winged dragon. He would be called the greatest dragon and we would not be having this discussion.
As for point 4, the quote you used is a portion of the one I pulled from the Silmarillion in my previous post. It is in reference to the dragon fleet that issued from Angband, not Ancalagon alone.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Celethil - you should have analised TMs points more fully:
Point 1 of TM - It is not at all made clear in LOTR that Gandalf thinks Ancalagon was the greatest Dragon. Why? There is a simple reason. Gandalf might have been a part of the host of the West and seen Ancalagon himself who was the mightiest of the dragon host. Gandalf however never ever saw Glaurung - I doubt he even new that much, if anything about him. So in other words he is only mentioning Ancalagon becuase this was the mightiest dragon HE had ever seen. Point 1 - utterly flawed
Point 2 - It is thought that the original Orcs may have been Maiar. If this is the case then it is clear that not everything Melkor keeps creating gets better and more advanced as time goes on. Melkor concentrated on numbers rather than the actual quality of the host he had. That is why the orcs were so easily slain by the host of Valinor. Point 2 - utterly flawed
Point 3 - There isn't one. it is the same as point 2.
Point 4 - Ancalagon did not 'Drive back the hosts of the west'. The dragon host he was leading did that. The Valar did not simply flee from the dragon host because Ancalagon was there - they fled becuase a load of fire breathing dragons were above them! Point 4 - utterly flawed
In short - your argument has been crippled into tatters.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
TM's post regarding Gandalf's quote cannot be so easily dismissed. There is no proof that Gandalf did not see Glaurung or know of him. In fact it is known that Gandalf walked among the Elves as one of them for quite some time.
Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. - Sil
TM has agreed that his second point is speculation, as it is the entire focus of this thread.
I will say that his 4th point is not flawed but rather erroneous for the reason you stated and I posted the quote regarding that.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Firstly the only time Olorin would have encountered Melkor is as follows:
Before the Pillars of Light downfall - No Glaurung (not alive yet)
Melkor's captivity in Valinor - No Glaurung (not alive yet)
The War of Wrath - No Glaurung (dead)
So the only time Olorin would have known about Glaurung is from talk ofthe Elves after Melkor returned from Valinor. BUT your forgetting that the only Elves who went over to Middle-earth were the Noldor - and they were exiled. Therefore there was no-one to bring Olroin news of Glaurung considering he was only revealed to the peoples of Beleriand for perhaps 300 years or so.
Hence it is doubtful Gandalf new of Glaurung and would not evaluate him in his analysis of the greatest Dragon. Therefore my point stands.
-- Edited by Glorfindel1235 at 10:39, 2006-10-06
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
you underestimate Olorin. he was a Maia of Manwe and Varda, and one of the most importnat. I doubt that these 2 Ainur didn't tell him what was going on in ME. and let us not forget, there was a palantir as well.
TM - If Manwe and Varda told there inferiors of every detail that was going on in ME then I doubt they would have time to actually have there own lives in Valinor.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
But imagine it, Manwe and Varda would be telling Olorin of everything happening in ME, of Turins troubles, Beren and Luthien, of Melian, of Sauron, Of Fingolfin, of Finrod, Of Gondolin of Turgons, of Cirdan, of the coming of Men and there lives, of Belegs death, The ruin of Belerinad, Ruin of Doriath, of Feanor's sons, of Cacaroth, of the Dwarves, of Morwen and Niennor, of the Easterlings and men of the South and of course of Morgoth and everything that goes along with all of them. There eyes cannot be everywhere at once...
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
and what better did they have to do? go clubbing? organize a surprise party for Mandos? go snowboarding on Taniquetil?
it was their job to take care of Arda and to rule it, and that is what they did. Olorin was an important Maia, and as we see from Varda's remark "not as the third" she clearly appreciated his valor. He surely knew about these things. The Valar could see everything, except the darkness of Angband.
They can see everything yes. But I doubt that means that they see everything that goes on at the same time and unless there was major importance I doubt they would tell Olorin the name simply of a dragon. In short it is wise to assume that he did not know the name, lest you can provide a quote to the contrary.
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
Here is a quote to show that Manwe and Varda did see everything and hear everything in Arda. Together they can see and hear anything, including Glaurung. Considering that the coming forth of Glaurung was an important event, I am more then sure they saw that and watched what happened afterwards.
"When Manwë there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwë is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth." The Silmarillion - Valaquenta
Here are 2 quotes about Olorin. Unfortunately as said in the second quote we will never find out anything else about Olorin then waht he revealed in Gandalf. Let us not forget, one of the things he revealed in Gandalf was that he knew that Ancalagon the Black had had the strongest fire breath from all the dragons.
"Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience." The Silmarillion - Valaquenta
"Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf." The Unfinished Tales - The Istari
And lastly 2 quotes to show that Olorin was important for Manwe, and for Varda as well:
"Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. 8 To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people..." The Unfinished Tales - The Istari
"Who would go ? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it. The Unfinished Tales - The Istari
Considering this, I don't see why Olorin shouldn't have known this.
Btw, strange that you would ask for quotes, I thought quotes were not so important for you.
