When faramir tried to regain control of Osgiliath and was wounded by an arrow, he was saved by the Dol Amroth, who took him back to Minas Tirith. Yada Yada Yada i'm sure you all know what happens next....
But my question is as Denethor presumed that Faramir was dead, so he set arrangements for he and his son to be burned. Would the events of the battle have changed if Denethor realised and accepted that Faramir was alive (and not poisoned) ?
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One Tomato to rule them all, One Tomato to find them, One Tomato to bring them all and in the darkness eat them!!! I am The Great Tomato!!!
Interesting question there Mark. Well, i think it would'nt of have had much change, maybe that Denethor had'nt screamed ''Abandon your posts, retreat'' or something like that. He would've been busy with Faramir instead.
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...But it was so that from Nienna he learned pity and patience.
Olorin/Gandalf wrote: Maybe that Denethor had'nt screamed; ''Abandon your posts, retreat'' or something like that.
So perhaps did he cause the moral of the men to be lost a significant amount, due to their ruler losing faith in the battle, but then having the conflict of Gandalf instructing them to return to their posts, would have brought about uncertainty in themselves making them less confident so they would not have performed as well as they could have done?
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One Tomato to rule them all, One Tomato to find them, One Tomato to bring them all and in the darkness eat them!!! I am The Great Tomato!!!
Great Tomato, seeing as you mentioned Dol Amroth, I assume you are talking about the books, and not the movies? If that's the case.
I wouldn't take what was seen in the movies as being accurate to Denethor's portrayal. Denethor wasn't the best father in the world, but he didn't hate Faramir (though he did treat Boromir better), and he wasn't a raving mad man screaming for everyone to flee. In fact, Denethor actually wonders why the men are fleeing their posts. As he puts it, it's better to die sooner than later, as death will come to them.
Denethor does have his mind overthrown, because of his use of the palantir and foolishly believing that he could challenge Sauron, and that does cause him to lose all sense of sanity. But, I'd like to point out Denethor did what he could in putting together the defenses of Gondor. He had the Rammos Echor built, he summoned in the surrounding Lords to bring in their armies, he sent the arrow and lit the beacons to call for Rohan's aid, and he stationed men near Pelargir to await the Corsairs that were coming, he planned the defenses very well.
Now, Denethor wasn't the inspirational leader, as he didn't feel like that would be 'wise.' That's where Gandalf comes in and takes control of leading and inspiration. But Gandalf arrived in Minas Tirith way too late for him to set up a good defense of Minas Tirith. I give credit to Denethor for planning the defenses and Gandalf for leading and inspiring.
Also one minor correction. In the books Denethor knew Osgiliath was long lost and there was no hope in taking it back. He sent Faramir to defend the Rammos Echor, which was the wall built enclosing Pelennor Fields. That was a foolish move, as they were greatly overmatched and it would be better to have kept everyone in Minas Tirith to await the siege, but Denethor sent Faramir to hold the Rammos Echor, not retake Osgiliath.
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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Great tomato wrote: Denethor presumed that Faramir was dead
I think this is another mistake i made, did Denethor not think that faramir had been shot with one of the Witch Kings darts, so instead of believing that he was dead, he actually believed that he had been poisoned, but nothing would cure it however he refuses that Gandalf even be permitted to help him, so could denethor actually know that he was alive yet refused to allow himself and his son to be tormented by the onslaught that was approaching them and thought that instead of being buried in the tomb they should go to his pyre and be burned. Or am i barking completely up the wrong tree
And i apologise as well, its quite some time since i refreshed my memory so i may be prone to some mistakes
-- Edited by Great tomato at 19:41, 2006-09-17
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One Tomato to rule them all, One Tomato to find them, One Tomato to bring them all and in the darkness eat them!!! I am The Great Tomato!!!
I don't think that had Denethor thought Faramir alive it would have altered the story too much but logical speculation could prove otherwise in the grand plan. I will await to see if others prove that things would have proved much different than what was already laid out...
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
No problems Olorin or Great Tomato, when I went and saw the movies I hadn't read the books and ages...I went back to reread and was shocked to find out that Legolas was the only elf at Helm's Deep.
What would have changed? I won't go into too much detail of what I think, but will throw some things out there. I think the obvious one is Pippin wouldn't have had to of gone and get Gandalf to come and save Faramir's life...which would mean Gandalf would have pursued the Witch-King (which was what he was going to do before Pippin came and said Denethor was going to burn Faramir alive) who had gone off to get everything back in order after Rohan's arrival. Had Gandalf pursued and come across the Witch-King again, that would be an interesting confrontation again....what would have happened? Don't know, I'll let some others consider that question.
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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
I will read them when i get time :)
