This thread was opened to discuss comments made in the Analytical forum.
I personally thought it was 'odd' to say the least, that anyone would suggest that Britain is America's lifeline.
While I will concede that our current moron of a President does seek Tony Blair's approval to gain credibility on the world stage. I think that Mr. Blair has done himself and the UK considerable damage on the world stage by siding with said moron.
I am interested in hearing an expanded opinion of this lifeline theory. Btw no offense was taken at the remark. I truly am interested in learning more about that opinion. I have quite a few British friends and have to tell them quite often that the colonies are not joining the empire again. LoL.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Lets see...Panic, chaos, destruction, end of most life on earth, Bush will loose his teddybear..We will all die, since Russia cant stand aside, and will attack both Britain and America...So, nothing much..
why are we actually talking about this? is it relevant to ask such a question? firstly it is extremely unlikely so it is pointless I would say to analyse that
Olorin of Nienna wrote: Lets see...Panic, chaos, destruction, end of most life on earth, Bush will loose his teddybear..We will all die, since Russia cant stand aside, and will attack both Britain and America...So, nothing much..
Interesting but unlikely. I think that if Britain went to war with America most of the Middle-east would go to as its not Britain they hate. They only dislike us at the moment becuase we sided with USA. There would be many countries which would stay out of the war (like Austrailia) but many that would join with the UK. I cannot think of a single country of worth that would side with America and fight Britain. Even Canada, there closest neigbours would probably stay out of it.
LoL We can already read the results of a war between Britain and America. It happened about 230 years ago.
Currently its a completely different situation that would require a moron in the White House and a strong anti-British sentiment. But IF it were to occur, the most likely scenario is a nuclear war. That threat alone makes it a highly unlikely probability.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Olorin - Surely you don't think Russia would enter the war and not choose a side? They would not simply 'go for both of us' as there is no way they could survive.
Celethil - I cannot see how America could win against a War with Britain when Britain has, apart from its nearest allies like France, most of the world fighting with them.
MoS - Again you did not read my post. I did not say that America could win a war with Britain. Although if the scenario were simply a war with Britain, I am now stating that: It is EXTREMELY improbable that Britain could win a war against America. I am basing that on population and conventional weaponry.
You obviously do not understand the complete stupidity of the American Psyche as a whole. Currently America boasts the largest ****nal of the most sophisticated weaponry on the planet and likes to test its conventional stuff in the Middle-East.
In your scenario, which is not a war between Britain and America, but rather a world war with Britain allied with the EU and other world powers against America, it is highly likely that the American response would be the insanity / stupidity of global nuclear war. If you feel that there could be a 'winner' in this type of conflict, I would disagree with you completely.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
I know Russia well enough, as i life right next to it (). Theey wouldnt choose a side. Thy would be the 3rd side. Or even if they would choose, after 1 has been destroyed they would destroy the one surviving, which results to what i said before. Besides, if the whole continent of America (Or atleast the part on which USA is on) would be destroyed, the result would be a huge wave, clearly wiping off the Western Shores of Europe, even most of Europe itself. But what do we have to worry about-either a new Ice Age or Global Warming will kill us first
-- Edited by Olorin of Nienna at 00:33, 2006-08-23
-- Edited by Olorin of Nienna at 00:33, 2006-08-23
Olorin of Nienna - I don't think it really matters what side any country chooses in the case of global nuclear warfare. Everyone gets hit, everyone suffers.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Celethil wrote: Although if the scenario were simply a war with Britain, I am now stating that: It is EXTREMELY improbable that Britain could win a war against America.
Please note:
America = continent Britian = Country
A country could never win a war with a whole continent. So we must first have equal sides. Lets try this:
America (continent) vs Europe (Continent)
Both sides are now continents as obviously Britain is part of Europe. Now lets forget the rest of the world. Who do you think would win now Celethil?
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Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!
When referring to 'America' I assumed we were talking about the United States of America. Over here we refer to the continents as 'the Americas'.
There is not much difference in the Europe vs North America scenario than WWIII. If pressed in conventional warfare either side will opt for the nuclear solution which will result in mutually assured destruction.
In a strictly conventional scenario it would be difficult to determine a winner. The facts however are that the populations are almost equal, the Atlantic Ocean needs to be crossed to send any major fighting force, the Pacific Ocean could also be crossed but all of Asia needs to be willing to let land forces cross, and the USA has the larger ****nal of weapons stockpiled.
The aggressor in this scenario stands to take some harsh losses simply because there is almost no possibility of a suprise attack and thus the defender has the opportunity to do A LOT of damage before the initial landwar even begins. I do think that the airforces of both sides would play a key role in a victory for either side. The navies of both sides would be at extreme risk.
Its an interesting topic but the political and economic conditions are not even close to what they would need to be to spark such a conflict.
-- Edited by Celethil at 22:49, 2006-10-03
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
However although both populations are pretty equal (Ibelive somwhere qround 250-300 million on each) there is a vital flaw in your calculations.
The USA (the main part of America) is a united force consisting of one main army, whereas Europe is not quite as united and each country maintains different laws, armies and basically everything. So in other words it would be like this:
America's total army rating = 5 Britain' total army rating = 3 Germany's = 3 France's = 3 Rest of Europe = 6
In other words there would be no chnce of victory for America. Admittedly they could defeat Britain, but not Britain, Germany, France and all the other countries combined.
nice topic...but what if Iceland destroys all and gets world domination? not even the best military or socio-political analysts can make predictions about that...it's like playing Nostradamus, because the possibilities in case of a third world war are endless. why? all the political relations we see on tv are a fassade (hope I spelled it ok). you don't, and won't ever know what is really going on at a high level between countries, so making predictions makes no sense
ok, let me tell you my scenario then: America is still dependent on the oil in the Middle-east, so they need to somehow get the Arabs to cooperate. The Europeans will help America make Iran and other countries keep the oil flowing. But when the oil reserves will finish, then finally the great corporations will allow new and innovative technologies to be used. Russia, won't do anything, because in case you don't know Russia army is in a terrible state. Read some articles on the net before you make any remarks about Russia's present military power.
In Central and South America we'll see some more military uprisings and attempts to get power using force, which will either have success (if supported by the CIA) or won't (if not). Australia and Oceania wont't do anything, but stay and watch as the Great Barrier Reef is disappearing. Africans will keep killing each other for gold, diamnonds or other natural resources while the Weastern powers try to make a profit out of this situation. The Arabs will still hate us, but they will never win against us because they will never be strong enough. India will keep fighting Pakistan, and will probably eventually reach a standstill before the situation escalates to a dangerous level, or probably NATO will make sure nothing bad happens.
North Korea will hopefully get rid of their stupid communist regime and finally, together witrh Cuba will become a democratic country.And perhaps in the future N and S Korea will re-unite, just like Germany in 1989. Russia will try to re-become a great world power, and will not try to destroy America, as they can't. The EU will grow larger and stronger and perhaps become a more united organization, making all countries in Europe one big happy family. The only problem is in my opinion...what will China do...they are powerfull, and it's only the beginning...they have resources, manpower and technology now. So China will probably also try to become one of the world's strengths not only economically but also militarrily. And Japan will slowly rebuild their army but probably won't attack America again, or anyone else on that matter.
I'd say that a Third World War is not likely at the moment. Froml some more time has passed.
Lastly, let me address your post mos. How can you give marks to the armies when you actually have no idea about that? America is by far the greatest military power in the world, and even though I don't like the US, I will admit that. They invest much money and time in many projects. Indeed the Europeans have better weapons, better vehicles, better ships or better airplanes. But the US has more, and numbers matter a lot. So personally I doubt that you can give points like that, like it's a kind of a computer game. Like: America - Strength 77 - Defense 64 etc.
I do not wish to say anything inappropriate but making predictions based on nothing is not a good idea. I'm really curious, so please answer me this. How exactly did you get those numbers, 5 or 6 or 3? did you perhaps quote the opinion of a professional analyst? did you read a book on this topic or an article and found out there what the ratio betweem the military forces of the countries is? did you perhaps study it yourself in a university? Because, I am really curious to find out how a person can know so exactly what the ratio of forces is...so please enlighten me.
sorry for the many posts, but when I tryed to post one big post I got some message which translated into English would be...your link to the site has been reset during the posting of the message, and so the only possibility to post it was to split it into several smaller posts.
I dunno if it has to do with me or with the site...anyway, again sorry for the spamming...
TM - Your response was appropriate. You cannot assign military strength by numbers as in a boardgame or RPG. Btw the collective populations of Europe and the Americas is roughly 700million each which is about equal to the Chinese population (food for thought).
To think that the USA is incapable of a terrifying military campaign in a European conflict is foolish. Consider the fact that even in WWII there was no attack on the mainland of the USA. There is a reason for that. It is EXTREMELY difficult to cross the oceans, Atlantic or Pacific, without being detected and assaulted. I personally believe that the attack on Pearl Harbor was not a surprise, but rather allowed in order to bring the USA into the war.
No chance of victory, is simplistic statement and does not take into account all the factors involved, as it is not just size of the military. The worst case scenario for Europe would be to actually attack the mainland of the USA, which would give the USA the advantage as it would have superior supply lines and infrastructure.
I still hold to the idea that conventional global warfare is not possible as long as any participant has a nuclear stockpile.
America's inherent weakness is its arrogance and history has shown us time and again that all empires fall. I like to think that humanity will evolve into a global culture with the UN at the head.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
firstly, Celethil you have my respect few Americans are aware of that fact, and indeed there is proof that the Americans knew where and when it will happen, but they didn't raise the alarm because they needed a good pretext to enter the war. Just as a parallel, they did the same when the first world war started. 1. they faked a letter which was supposedly written by a German officer and where it was stated that Germany wished to se Mexico as a way to conquer the US. 2. they sent weapons in hospital or passenger ships across the Atlantic. They knew Germany knew it too, and when Germany attacked a passenger ship with weapons on board (btw that's against UN rules) America had it's reason
anyway, indeed the war which would be fought would be one with the most modern technology available...a terrible war. you talked about nukes, I disagree. as many would say, nukes are so 40s there are much worse weapons today, neutron bombs that destroy any living thing but live all buildings intact, or the newest gold bombs (it's really gold in there) which make even the strongest steel and concrete bunker useless. radiation pure. and this time, America isn't safe. the Cuban missile crisis will be nothing compared to what could happen this time.
Americans probably believe that the StarWars laser system will destroy the rockets, but I am not so sure. and even worse, when the threat comes from within, as in the case of terrorist attacks, America isn't so strong anymore. no place is safe Celethil, unless you bought land on the dark side of the moon and can get there. Empires do fall, but remember, times change a lot. I think that this time it might work - if we all try of course...
First of all I should inform you that many Americans are aware of what our government does and why. Those in power in our country expend tremendous resources to insure that the mass uneducated majority 'thinks' a certain way.
For our president to tell us that our World Trade Center was attacked by terrorists of Saudi and Pakistani origin therefore we must attack Afghanistan and then Iraq because of their WMDs, borders on the insane. The masses bought it. And worse the Brits bought into this lunacy as well.
The very idea that the War on Terrorism is anchored in keeping the masses afraid, is insane. Maybe no one bothered to look up the definition of terrorism.
Sorry to digress. The topic is still Global Warfare. I firmly believe that there can currently be no global war scenario that does not lead to nuclear holocaust.
No matter the world's current sentiment about America, it is highly improbable that such sentiment will spark a military conflict prior to our current president leaving office. The world knows that our leader can only retain office for a maximum of 8 years (barring constitutional amendment).
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
well, Celethil, indeed many Americans know this. Of course I don't think that all Americans are idiots. but many are. when 80% of the people asked by CNN to point Irak or Afghanistan on the map point either towards South America or Africa...then of course they buy anything the media says. and the media is of course very much hand in hand with other organizations... just like the whole "hidden nuclear weapons of Saddam" story. even worse, I found it funny that the Americans don't know where some states are...or where they live. Some guy was asked where New York is and he was ponting somewhere in Indiana or so... No education and mediatic control is really a problem there.
TM - I understand many of the faults of the current American Empire, but the EU, China, Russia, and the Middle-East are not without blame. Ultimately we are all citizens of the planet Earth and the choices we make impact our relationships with each other.
This thread is focused on war between world powers. A war that should never take place.
Humanity is growing and evolving and learning slowly from its mistakes. There is however a certain irony in the fact that our (the world's) nuclear weapon stockpiles, in effect, keep the peace. The internet through which we are all connected was a US Defense Department project.
Again I digress. The point is that all nations have sins for which to atone.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Personally I'd describe the situation at the moment as Pax Americana - peace maintained more or less by the US. Of course it's actually all of NATO that is involved, but it's the US usually taking care of most of the things. Anyway, no problem, as soon as the oil in the Middle East is gone so will the problems be. If they have no oil the stupid Arabs will get no more help and sit alone in their desert. But for example others were smarter, such as the people in Dubai, who realised oil isn't going to last forever so they are making sure that tourism is going to become a great source of profit. Just as an example, a man-made huge island only out of sand and rocks, where all the Hollywood stars have houses, a F1 track, a modern golfing course, great fun parks, and in 2008 the tallest apartment building in the world - 800 m if I remember well. But most of them give money on stupid stuff - mostly weapons to destroy us or the Israelis.
Carefully consider your last statement TM. The people of the Middle-East are not without justification for their intense hatred of Israel.
The Palestinians were unjustly displaced by the Israelis. The Israelis were given that land by Britain and the League of Nations. Whatever injustice was done to the Jewish people by the Axis Powers and Germany in particular, it would appear to me to be equally unjust to make reparations that mean displacing the native people of a region by foreign powers, because the Bible entitles them to that land. The Jewish people should have been given control of the German government.
Then to add insult to injury the US supplies Israel with enough weapons to defend itself well.
If I was kicked out of a mansion and given a one room apartment to live in then I would probably be a little angry at those who evicted me.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
There are good books on this topic describing exactly what happened. The Jews didn't only receive the land, they also bought much of it. The area where Israel now is was some time ago a large swampy and desolate region. The Jews bought it, then worked hard to make it habitable, and when they managed to transform it into a nice place the Arabs got angry and wanted it back. Indeed, this wasn't the case with all of that region, but much of it was bought from the Arabs.
I would agree with the fact that some of the land was purchased from the Ottoman Empire and from the Arabs (less than 1/3). That does not account for the UN and League of Nations generously dividing the area with over half being given to the Jews and the rest to the Palestinians.
The point being that over the course of history many people have been displaced by conquering empires. In some cases those that are displaced fight for their land back and in some cases they don't or can't.
The Middle-East is only important to the rest of the world because if its oil reserves. If the rest of the world ever figures out that electric engines are better than internal combustion engines, the need for oil will drastically drop off. That alone will change the politics and economics of the Middle-East and you will find that the USA no longer cares to support Israel.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
yeah it's really funny till know the Americans used to send some Humvees to Israel to help Jews (sending them for free of course) but now it's a really funny situation Germany made a vehicle called Dingo which is better, stronger, faster, more anything then the Humvee so what is happenning? AMerica is paying Germany to make Dingos for Israel...of course your country has great interest in the region but I think when the oil reserves are gone the world will change - much of the big corporations today are very dependent on oil, that's why we're still using it and not alternative energy sources.
Lets see...Panic, chaos, destruction, end of most life on earth, Bush will loose his teddybear..We will all die, since Russia cant stand aside, and will attack both Britain and America...So, nothing much..
). Theey wouldnt choose a side. Thy would be the 3rd side. Or even if they would choose, after 1 has been destroyed they would destroy the one surviving, which results to what i said before. Besides, if the whole continent of America (Or atleast the part on which USA is on) would be destroyed, the result would be a huge wave, clearly wiping off the Western Shores of Europe, even most of Europe itself. But what do we have to worry about-either a new Ice Age or Global Warming will kill us first 
