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Topic: What would have happened?

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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What would have happened?

What do you think would have happened if Boromir had got the Ring off Frodo? How do you think the War of the Ring would have gone then?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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Bad. Denethor thought that Boromir would have given him the Ring, but as Faramir says somewhere (can't quote as I have no e-books) Boromir would have kept it for himself and probably seized power in Gondor. But still, his power would have probably not been enough to challenge Sauron, and so all would be lost for the free people of Middle-earth.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Perhaps Boromir with the Ring might have been able to defeat Sauron without it?...

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Based on what we know, the One Ring would have done its best to return to its master. That being said, if Boromir had taken it, he would have used it as a weapon against Sauron. At least that was his desire at the Council of Elrond.

Given that, it is likely that Sauron would have become aware of its location and Saruman as well. Which would have given us a very different set of events that would have ended with much the same outcome. Sauron would have been defeated, but the "how" would have been quite different. No one in Arda could change Eru's ultimate design.

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Indeed, it would have been interesting...
as we saw in the book, Eru directly intervened as Frodo was about to destroy the Ring and made sure that Sauron was destroyed
so it could be that Eru made sure the Ring got somehow back to Frodo
as we also see in the books Bilbo, and Frodo as well were "chosen" to bear the Ring, so I guess Eru would have somehow found a way to make Frodo find the Ring.

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Very odd thing for Eru to do though wasn't it? Make Gollum fall in the Fire. Least of all he commited murder, the supposed 'greatest sin', and most of all is not Eru meant to stand for 'Free will for all' whether evil or not?

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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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greatest sin? I think you are linking Eru too much to Christianity and to our view of God
Eru is not God, that it a clear fact...that is why in Middle-earth the accent is put much more on your inevitable fate, or as often said your doom, and not so much on your power of choice, and the way you can shape your future
so, I believe that is the way Eru is was, not necessarily "free will for all"

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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So you don't think that Eru was meant to represent God?

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Eru isn't God as we think of him

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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I think many will despute you on that. What can Eru be if not God?

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ok
which part from GOD AS WE THINK OF HIM don't oyu understand
Eru is not the God of Abraham, Noah, David, Saul or of the Bible
Eru is the God of Aragorn, Elrond, Denethor and Frodo
Eru is the God of Middle Earth but not the God of the Christians
Eru didn't send Jesus on the earth or spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai.
Eru made sure Gollum fell with the Ring to his doom.

Eru is a god, but not God.

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Eru is God as in the Christian God. The Valar are lessar gods like the Greek gods, and the Maiar are the Angels. It can be said that the Valar are the Angels but everyone sustains to the fact the Eru is The One God.

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TM I will agree with you in that Eru is not the God of Islam, Judaism, or Christianity (all the same God). Unless of course you believe that JRR Tolkien's novels are the prehistory of Earth.

But what I think MoS is trying to say is that in Tolkien's world, Eru is omnipotent and omniscient. I don't think you will find any quotes that will dispute that, but I will stand corrected if you do.

The only thing I would add to MoSs last post is that the Valar and Maiar appear to be different choirs of angels. In the narrative it does state that the Valar were called gods by men, although I think that men probably thought of the Maiar as gods too. That being another thread entirely.



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Witchking of Angmar - Rank 10
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omnipotence and omniscience are not the only qualities that define God...
it does not mean that if you're omnipotent and omniscient you are instantly God as we think of him
there are enough differences between Eru and God to prove this...

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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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What are you trying to say that The Might? What is Eru if not the One God of Tolkien's myth?

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Jesus...how many times do I have to say this
ERU IS THE ONE GOD OF TOLKIENS CREATION
BUT
ERU IS NOT THE GOD FROM THE BIBLE

ALLAH IS NOT GOD; BUDHA IS NOT GOD; SHIVA IS NOT GOD; ERU IS NOT GOD

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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Eru Is THE GOD. Tolkien would have based a hell of alot of our God for Eru. After all the overall plot of his myth is very similar to the bible - God creates a devil, devil rebels, devil is locked away, then awakens for the last battle etc. So it would be wise to assume that Eru is basically a substitute for the Christian God.

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mouth of sauron wrote:


Perhaps Boromir with the Ring might have been able to defeat Sauron without it?...


I can't see Boromir using the Ring, at least not effectively. I can only assume that one of the Wise would have the slightest inkling of how to use the Ring as a weapon. Boromir would have had his mind poisoned, and the Ring would have abandoned him, at the most inopportune moment. Leaving Boromir destroyed, and Sauron would take back what is his.

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I really hate to move so far off topic but....

TM - In addressing your earlier comments you seem to draw a line in the sand. From everything that I have read, Tolkien's world appears to be monotheistic. If we assume his world is monotheistic then I am not sure that I understand your point of view.

Eru is not like Zeus or Odin, the head of a pantheon of Gods. That would be Manwe who takes that role. Instead Eru is outside of the world and above all things in creation, which fits with the idea of monotheism.

It has been said several times that Eru causes Gollum to fall. Could someone provide the quote that states this? I get the feeling that is an interpretation of Tolkien's words but not actually what was said.




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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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Here you are Celethil:


"Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named." - 192 From a letter to Amy Ronald 27 July 1956



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Thank you. It's exactly as I speculated. The quote is being interpreted as referring to Eru/God. The other power / writer of the story or that person who is ever present and never named is simply the narrator. It's a literary device.

If you assume that the narrator of the story is Eru, then you have to apply that to the entirety of Tolkien's work, which I do not believe was his intent. I think that Tolkien was implying that fate was at work in the destruction of the ring since Frodo was incapable of completing the task.

I would add that this is futher intimated by Gandalf in the LoTR:

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it."

I can't find the other quote right now, but I believe Gandalf also mentions that Gollum has another role to play before the end. Another literary device, foreshadowing.



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Anarion, Son of Elendil - rank 8
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No you are wrong.


Tolkien is the narrator of the story, but in the passage it says 'by which I do not mean myself', so therefore it is not the narrator - it is Eru.


 The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named." 



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I think that Tolkien was implying that fate was at work in the destruction of the ring since Frodo was incapable of completing the task.~Celethil

Fate is something that's present in the Lord of the Rings, but I would call the term best used for Eru's intervention as luck.  Not just from Letter 192, but several other letters (181, 191, and 246) all point out that Eru had caused Gollum's fall, destroying the Ring.


'Providence' (fate, chance, or predestined) however you want to put it, is something that Tolkien did not mention a lot.  Providence only shows up a few select times in Tolkien's letters.  And there are some things from his works where we can see fate is prevalent...Gandalf says Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by it's maker.


So, there is an element of providence, or fate, but I think that 'luck' would be a better way of describing things.  Tolkien says in a BBC Radio Interview:


"I have always been undeservedly lucky at major points."


And I think this luck shows in his books.  As remarked by Professor Tom Shippey:


However, ‘chance’ was not the word which for Tolkien best expressed his feelings about randomness and design. The word that did is probably ‘luck’....to ‘change their luck’, and can in a way say ‘No’ to divine Providence ~The Road to Middle-earth


I think there are moments of fate, chance, and predestiny, but I think the big one is luck.  Because through free will, the free will given to Eru's children they have a chance to change their luck, and change their fate.  Letter 192 doesn't get it's full meaning unless these 2 quotes are with it:


''Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest hounour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.''~Letter 246


’'But at this point the ’salvation’ of the world and Frodo’s own ’salvation’ is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury. At any point any prudent person would have told Frodo that Gollum would certainly betray him , and could rob him in the end. To ’pity’ him, to forbear to kill him, was a piece of folly, or a mystical belief in the ultimate value-in-itself of pity and generosity even if disastrous in the world of time. He [Gollum] did rob him and injure him in the end- but by a ’grace’ that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing anyone could have done for frodo! By a situation created by his ’forgiveness’ , he was saved himself, and relieved of his burden."~Letter 181


It was Frodo's previous act of Pity and Mercy toward Gollum that won him his salvation.  His failure had been redressed, Frodo's own salvation by Eru was because of his previous act of pity to Gollum.  So, eventhough if there are moments of fate and providence, the biggy is 'luck.'  And people can change their fate, by the choices they make with the free will that they all possess.  Eru just didn't cause Gollum to fall because it was fate and it had to happen.  He did it because Frodo had pitied and mercied Gollum (with his own free will) and that earned Frodo his own salvation to where Eru 'relieved him of his burden,' and 'redressed his failure.'



-- Edited by Lord Lórien at 18:39, 2006-09-13

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Glorfindel- No you are wrong, is a poor rebuttal supported by a quote that must be interpreted in order to come to the conclusion that it is referring to Eru. As I already stated, an omniscient narrator is a common literary tool and rarely refers to God.

Lord Lorien - As usual, you bring a wealth of information and coherent argument.

Whether you choose to use the term luck, fate, chance, predestination, or any other synonym is irrelevant as they are interchangable for this discussion.

However, ‘chance’ was not the word which for Tolkien best expressed his feelings about randomness and design. The word that did is probably ‘luck’....to ‘change their luck’, and can in a way say ‘No’ to divine Providence ~The Road to Middle-earth

That quote clearly states that divine providence is unlikely. Although I will admit that I have no clear definition for fate, if not to say it is the same as divine providence. Which I guess is the whole point of this discussion.

That is to say: Is fate the hand of Eru, or is it something woven into the design of the world that Eru has no direct influence over though he did impart it to the world?

The quote you supplied from letter 192 implies that Tolkien believed that the gift of free will had an influence on luck / fate, which would further imply that fate is not the hand of Eru at work but rather something that Eru imparted to the world in its creation.

I would also note that the quote you supply from letter 181, is merely a statement of fact and that you later add Eru into the equation through interpretation. Tolkien is not stating that Frodo or the world is saved by Eru, but that because Frodo chose to take pity on Gollum and show mercy, he and the world were saved because of the role Gollum played in the destruction of the ring. The quote from letter 246 is an abbreviated version of the same sentiment.

In order to come to a logical conclusion we first need to decide on the answer to my earlier question. If you decide that fate is the hand of Eru then yes he did directly influence the destruction of the ring. If you decide that fate is a mechanism imparted to the world by Eru that can be influenced by free will, then no Eru did not directly intervene.

I welcome your rebuttal.

Note: My response to Glorfindel was in no way malicious, but rather a statement of fact. I try to avoid statements of right or wrong that are not supported by concrete evidence.



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good posts Celethil and Lord Lorien, indeed an interesting topic
I think that Celethil summoned it up, it is as he said a subjective matter, depending on the way you view fate/luck in Tolkien's works. I personally...dunno what to say
one example of fate is a quote from UT (can someone perhaps post it).
The quote is in "The Journey of Erebor", and it is an explanation Gandalf gives as to why things happened the way they happened.
he says that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, just as Frodo was meant to bring it to mount Doom, and just as he (Gandalf) was meant to guide both of them.
it is of course a very complex topic, but as I said it is very subjective and things can be interpreted in many ways

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That is to say: Is fate the hand of Eru, or is it something woven into the design of the world that Eru has no direct influence over though he did impart it to the world?~Celethil

There's the key, and I agree with TM in that it's a matter of interpretation, and could be taken a variety of ways.  For a little note on Providence, the Oxford English Dictionary defines it as:


3. The foreknowing and beneficent care and government of God (or of nature etc); divine direction, control or guidance; 4. Hence applied to the Deity as exercising prescient power and direction


I think fate and chance can be interchangeable words here.  In which case if Tom Shippey is right these words wouldn't be the best to describe what's in Tolkien's books.  Shippey has the same interests in Anglo-Saxon myth, and is one of the more well respected and better studiers of Tolkien, yet just like anyone one of us, he's offering his opinion and it could be someone disagrees with him.


As TM points out, I think there is this element of fate, as remarked that Bilbo was meant to find the ring.  I also don't think it's a coincidence that Tolkien tells us during this time only Frodo had the strength of will to get the Ring to Mount Doom (no coincidence in the fact that Bilbo gets the Ring who happens to be Frodo's heir, who happens to be the only person at this time that had the strength to get the Ring to Mount Doom). 


And a note upon luck, which I think Tolkien would have been aware of from his background in Anglo-Saxon history, is that it was believed an 'unlucky' person was so because the God(s) willed it.  Just as the God(s) willed 'luck' upon someone, and that person therefor got 'lucky.'  So, those with the favor of the God(s) were 'lucky' while those who weren't were unlucked.


Shippey seems to argue that within LOTR someone can change their luck, therefor change their fate (destiny, however you want to put it).  Frodo had won his salvation because of his Pity towards Gollum.  Now again this is Shippey's interpretation, as it all boils down with how you would interpret it.  Perhaps there are other examples people can think of, besides the Frodo situation?



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I would suggest to the Ainur that they move everything after Anduril's post to the analytical forum, since we are waaaaaaaay off topic. Its a great discussion, just in the wrong place.

That said, I would like to be clear in stating that I am not opposed to the thought that Eru caused Gollum to fall in Mount Doom. I simply asked for quotes to support that theory, as it appeared to me from other threads and posts that said theory was written by Tolkien somewhere.

From the discussion that ensued, I cannot find that the writings of Tolkien support such a theory unless you first accept that fate / chance / luck is in actuality the hand of Eru directly working in the world.

Sidebar: If you watch the TV Show Futurama, there is an episode in which God tells Bender ( the robot ) how he works: "When you do things right, they won't be sure you did anything at all."


Lord Lorien- Are you looking for examples of salvation caused by pity or of other causal relationships within Tolkien's work?

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Valar
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I have started a new thread in the the Experienced (Advanced) forum, to continue the debate over Providence, luck, and fate and how it appears in Tolkien's books.


This thread won't be closed, but all further discussion will be about the topic thread:


What do you think would have happened if Boromir had got the Ring off Frodo? How do you think the War of the Ring would have gone then?


Thankyou, the link to the new thread is below.


http://tolkienforums.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=77580&p=3&topicID=8387950



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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
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ok, just a small post to bring this thread back to its initial topic
as I said, I don't think that ME could have been saved if Boromir had taken the Ring from Frodo. He would have been quickly ensnared by the ring and would have probably returned to MT with dreams of glory and power.
And doing what his father had in mind as well - to guard the Ring in MT and to use it in case of need, he would have brought the doom of ME. Sauron would have conquered all of ME and would have lived happily ever after.
Boromir was a good man, but his arrogance and lust for glory was his downfall...too bad that his story ended like that.

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If Boromir had taken the ring, I think an interesting diversion from the story would have been his immediate encounters with the rest of the fellowship. I think its safe to assume that he would have put the ring on and become invisible and then headed back to Gondor rather than risk a confrontation with Gandalf, whom I doubt he feared but Im sure he respected in might.

His homecoming would have been very interesting since he would have traveled for some time with the ring and would likely have usurped the throne of Gondor and prepared for war on Mordor. With his distrust in Elves and Wizards being skewed even more by the ring he might even isolate Gondor from all other men and Elves.

In the end however, I believe that fate would intervene as it had in the past and Sauron would be defeated.

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You eft out 1 clear point. Boromir would have beemn lit up like a beacon for the Nazgul, and they would have swept down on him, and that would have been that.

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what can I say...I firstly thought the same as you Celethil, but now I have changed my view:
Anduril is indeed totally correct.
Frodo was almost seen by the eye as he put on the ring to escape Boromir on Amon Lhaw, so it is safe to assume that Sauron would have quickly found Boromir, and would have quickly sent the Nazgul on winged creatures to take the ring
in such conditions, I doubt that Boromir would have had a chance to reach the Entwash, not to mention Minas Tirith.
Of course, I considered his route through the East Emnet, then crossing the Enwash as soon as possible, and then travelling through Anorien, probably close to the White Mountains.
If he had reached Anorien, he could have used his horn to call for help, but I doubt he could have made it that far considering the Nazgul were not so far away.

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Actually I did not forget that point. I will have to search for the quotes in the letters, but I believe Tolkien talks about this exact scenario and states that the Nazgul would have been drawn to the ring, but that they would feel compelled to serve the wearer. Sauron would have to know that, but I think he would welcome any open use of the ring, in order to bring it closer to him and Minas Tirith was pretty close to Mordor.

I am not sure exactly what would have happened if Boromir showed up at Minas Tirith with the Nazgul, but I can't think that it would go smoothly.

Frodo avoided being found by the Nazgul because he was afraid of them and did not wish to use the ring as a weapon directly against its master. We know that Boromir had different plans.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
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I think the only Lord of the Ring that the Nazgul served was Sauron. Indeed they wanted the Ring, but as I read somewhere, they would have never been able to use it and take it for themselves, but would have immediately brought it back to Sauron. This is one of the reasons they were his greatest servants.
I think the information can be found in UT, Hunt for the Ring, though I might have read it somewhere else.

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LoL Well there you have it. Opposed opinions. Let the quote search begin.

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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
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I don't have so much time on this weekend, so maybe someone could look it up in UT, Hunt for the Ring


I believe the quote is in the beginning of the text where Tolkien explains why Sauron chose the 9 to go forth and search for the Ring and tells us why they were his best servants



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The Valar are lessar gods like the greek gods, and the Maiar are the angels - Mouth of sauron. 


 


I disagree. I think that the Maiar are like angels but the Valar are like the Archangels.


The Maiar are like the Valar exept to a lesser degree.


Melkor (an archangel) turned evil and left (like satin did)


Eru is not like Zeus or Odin, that role belongs to Menwe. - Celethil


I don't agree with this if the Valar are like Archangels than that would make Mewe like Michael Archangel. Not Zeus or Odin.



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If you are comparing the Ainur to the Angels of Judeo-Christian monotheism then Im not sure I understand the comparison with Manwe and Michael. The Archangels are rather low in the heirarchy of the choirs of angels. The Seraphim are much higher in order. I would compare Michael to Eonwe if we are using an angelic comparison.

I only made the comparison between Manwe and Odin/Zeus because I was comparing the Ainur to a pantheon of gods in a polytheistic model. You could substitute the Egyptian pantheon if you like.

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Celethil wrote:






Actually I did not forget that point. I will have to search for the quotes in the letters, but I believe Tolkien talks about this exact scenario and states that the Nazgul would have been drawn to the ring, but that they would feel compelled to serve the wearer. Sauron would have to know that, but I think he would welcome any open use of the ring, in order to bring it closer to him and Minas Tirith was pretty close to Mordor.

I am not sure exactly what would have happened if Boromir showed up at Minas Tirith with the Nazgul, but I can't think that it would go smoothly.

Frodo avoided being found by the Nazgul because he was afraid of them and did not wish to use the ring as a weapon directly against its master. We know that Boromir had different plans.


 


I find that one a bit hard to swallow, as when Frodo put the Ring on at Amon Sul, the Nazgul certainly didn't seem to want to serve him...except on a platter.







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Samwise Gamgee - rank 9
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Date: Sep 26, 2006

Although the Nazgul are bound to the Ring that in no way indicates they serve anyone who wears it.


Remember the Ring is simply a piece of Gold with Sauron's spirit in it. And as the Nazgul serve the Ring they are still serving Sauron. It would take someone of massive power (greater than Sauron's) for the Nazgul to divert there allegience over to another who wore the Ring. I doubt Boromir would have fitted the bill.



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