I think that Angainor was pretty powerful. The chain that Aule created that bound Melkor for three ages and then again at the end of the first age. It would have had to take a very powerful thing to do that.
Perhaps Gurthang the Blade of Turin would do it for me? The Ring was powerful, but in my opinion only powerful on a third Age basis. The Silmarils were greater I suppose as they were even able to corrupt Morgoth, whilst the Ring struggled to corupt Sauron.
corrupt? I mean...the Silmarils didn't corrupt Morgoth, he was already evil Even as he apologized and was set free in Valinor, he still didn't repent at all, unlike Sauron who did for a short while after the end of the First Age repent for his deeds As for the Ring, I am not really sure what you mean by corrupting Sauron I mean...the Ring was more or less a part of him as it had a part of his power within it So...that would mean Sauron was trying to corrupt himself? I really don't understand...I mean, the Ring never tryed to corrupt Sauron
When I say 'corrupt' I mean Entrance - The Silmarils had the power to entrance the great Morgoth.
The Ring did not try and corrupt Sauron no, but it could not do so if it wanted for it did not have the Power. It did not have the Power either to corrupt Tom Bombadil.
the Power? ok...I don't get it the Ring couldn't corrupt Sauron, because it was part of him you can't be corrupted by your own self... that doesn't work... Sauron put a part of his power in it, just as he did with the foundations of Barad-dur. The Ring wanted to return to Sauron just for that reason - to become a whole again. You say if it wanted...the Ring had the same will as Sauron, the same mission, the same goals, because it was a part of him. And about Tom Bombadil, that has absolutely nothing to do with the Ring. It only had to do with the nature of Tom Bombadil. As I said, Tom Bombadil is not of Middle-earth, he is not subject to the problems of others such as disease, old age, death, or the Ring. That is why Tom saw Frodo while he was wearing the Ring.
Aule was able to distribute his own mind amoungst beings he created, thus creating the Dwarves, which eventually learnt to think for themselves.
Sauron distributed his mind into the Ring, which in turn eventually had a will of its own, originally fed by sauron's will. Now unlike the Dwarves the Ring cannot obviously move as its structure does not allow it to do so. BUT it can think for itself like Dwarves can by corrupting another to do its will for it.
Therefore the Ring could TRY (though it never would becuase he's its master) and corrupt Sauron but would fail to do so becuase it can do nothing that is not already in Sauron control - hence Sauron is more powerful than it.
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Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! Auta i lómė! Aurė entuluva!
I doubt you can make compare this. Aule never transferred his power into the Dwarves, he made them, but not like Sauron made the Ring. The best comparison for Sauron and the Ring is Agahan and the Stone warrior he made from the story "The Faithful Stone" (found in UT, The Druedain) Agahan created this stone to protect the family of a friend from Orcs, and he transferred a part of his power into it. The family was attacked by Orcs, the Stone protected them but got destroyed in the process (its leg was broken). When Aghan returned he said that he had felt pain in his leg and that it was such when you transfer a part of your power into an object. Now I only summarised it to give you a basic idea of what I am talking about. This is a similar example, Aule and the Dwarves are totally different. And the Ring would never ever try that...even if it was stronger. The Ring could not exist without Sauron, Sauron could not exist without the Ring. They are a whole, so it is for the best interest of both that the others are safe. Perhaps, perhaps the Ring could try that as you said Glorfindel.
He cannot just make them becuase only Eru has the power to make complete beings:
'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mindcan live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?' The Silmarillion
You see Aule distributed his own mind amoung the bodies he made, thus creating beings entirely answerable to his will.
This is What Sauron did but he put his mind into an object which needed others to move it, hence it corrupted others to fulfill its desire.
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Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! Auta i lómė! Aurė entuluva!
yes indeed...sorry I believe I misunderstood you I agree with you here but the Dwarves only thought to think for themselves when Eru found out what had happened and them gave them their own will as you said, in the very beginning, the Dwarves were like Aule, and only he could control them but after Eru changed the Dwarves, they didn't need Aule to think for them anymore, but they could think for themselves it was the interevention of Eru that made this possible
Eru only allowed for the Dwarves to continue existing, he did not give them extra life. They developed there own wills, building on what they already knew from Aule, when they awoke under stone which Aule had to bury them under unbtil the coming of the Firstborn.
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Utślie'n aurė! Aiya Eldaliė ar Atanatįri, utślie'n aurė! Auta i lómė! Aurė entuluva!
This seems pretty easy. It's already been said. The Silmarils would be the most powerful items in the world. As far as I can tell they are the only items that had an effect on the most powerful of the Valar. And at least one of them remains on display as a star in the sky.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Yes but did that involve Power? Did the Silmarillions have Melkor in a trance by there Power or there magnificance? I favour the latter.
Remember however that the Silmarils did not have a huge pecentage of Maiar power in them like The One Ring...but then I suppose they had some of Yavannas power - the Two trees in them so I dunno...
I thought the Silmarils were later hallowed and did cause pain to Morgoth and weighted his crown. They certainly caused pain to the remaining sons of Feanor. And they did appear to have an effect on anyone who actually possessed one. Thingol and Dior being the best examples.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Yes the Silmarils were Hallowed by Varda and I think Manwe, making them 'Holy'. That is why beings like Carcoroth become mad when they come into contact with them but a mighty being like Morgoth merely had his hands burnt.
Still The Ring did corrupt those who held it. But I am unsure on the which one has more power.
Fraid not TM. The army of the Dead, although invincible, could not attack anyone. There only offence was to frighten there enemies, useful only if there enemies are fearful of them...
"Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless."~Letter 210
I repeat - the Dead Army could not phisically harm the living, only install fear.
This was discussed in another thread, and though I would concede that the Flame Imperishable is an actual flame (physical manifestation of Eru's power).
I don't know that it qualifies as an item for this thread's discussion however due to the fact that it is only accessible by Eru himself. That and the fact that it is a flame and not a solid item.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
I don't think it is a flame in its literal sense A flame is the product of a highly exothermic reaction (for example ,combustion) a self-sustaining oxidation reaction, or nuclear fusion in the sun. In other words, a flame could be said to be the visible part of a fire. Flames, or at least portions of them, are often plasma or an ionized gas, but in more general terms a flame is a region of exothermic chemical reaction of high enough temperature to emit visible light. The Flame Imperishable is in my opinion more of a concept, a force, such as the tao, or the force in StarWars...not a flame in the normal sense.
The scientific definition of fire does not apply to this discussion as it is no more relevant than asking whether or not the fire of the burning bush from Exodus in the bible is real fire or not.
The Silmarillion states that the Flame Imperishable was placed at the heart of the world, which does not mean that it is actually a flame, but as the Ainur entered the world they all chose to take physical manifestations and it is my opinion that Eru did the same with the Flame Imperishable. That is, he gave his power a physical manifestation. That does not change its true nature, but rather gives it a frame of reference in the physical world.
There is no 'proof', so I can only go by what is written and make inferences that are most likely correct.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
No the Nazgul were not dead. They wielded weapons which were in the phisical world, hence they could destroy if need be. The Dead army were DEAD and could not effect the phisical world in any way except by frightening there enemies as they could be seen but nothing else.
