Tolkien Forums

I had a school project on Tolkien's imaginary world-its creatures,places,events, characters... so I did a lot of study about orcs and goblins and I found in many places that Tolkien himself didn't make any difference between them,they are just called by two names but they are identical-except maybe for what mos said-that goblins are mostly hidden inside mountains,tunnels and caves,they almost never go out so they have bigger eyes and sharper sight-since they're always in the dark, and orcs live on the surface,they go out, can be great warriors and they have more strenght than goblins

and are uglier;)

I wouldn't say scared, I merely find goblins more repulsive than Orcs and Glorfindel obviously agrees. I find alot of insects repulsive but i am not scared of them (providing they are not near me...)

That's true mos.  As TM showed mostly 'goblin' was used in The Hobbit, I think because of the different age levels of the The Hobbit and LOTR, 'goblin' is a term kids would be more familiar with.  Where when we get to the Silmarillion and LOTR, more serious, and tragic stories, Orc is the one most often used.

Also, an interesting note, 'goblin' is typically lowercased where 'Orc' is capitilized...'goblin' seems to be an informal, or slang word, for the proper term 'Orc.'

So it could be that the term "goblin" was also used for Uruk-hai, and not only for the simple orcs

Well, TM, there is an interesting theory going around.  Personally, I don't think there's enough to prove it, and it mostly seems speculative, but just to give you the 'theory.'

The theory is is that Uruk-hai and Uruks are synonymous, Uruk-hai are not the 'crossbreed between men and orcs' as originally thought.

Let's start out with a bit of history.  Sauron first create the 'Uruks' which are simply a stronger breed of orc.  'The Black Uruks' as they are also called, simply being an improvement upon the Orcs.  And Uruk-hai is not a crossbreed between Men and Orcs, devised by Saruman, but another term the lengthened term of Uruk.

'Uruk-hai' translates into 'Orc Race' so the translation fits with the theory.  Also throughout Unfinished Tales Tolkien uses the term 'Man-orc' or 'Half-orc' to describe Saruman's crossbreeding of the two:

“When Theodred gained the Fords the day was waning.  He set Grimbold in command of the garrison of the west bank, stiffened with fifty dismounted Riders.  The rest of his Riders and all the horses he at once sent across the river, save his own company: with these on foot he manned the eyot, to cover the retreat of Grimbold is he was driven back.  This was barely done when disaster came.  Saruman’s eastern force came down with unexpected speed; it was much smaller than the western force, but more dangerous.  In its van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders, feared by horses.  Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles.  The horsemen and wolfriders fell on the horse-herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them.  The garrison of the east bank surprised by the sudden assault of the massed Uruks, was swepty away, and the Riders that had just crossed from the west were caught still in disarray, and though they fought desperately, they were driven from the fords along the line of the Isen with the Uruks in pursuit.

As soon as the enemy had gained possession of the eastern end of the Fords there appeared a company of men or Orc-men (evidently dispatched for the purpose), ferocious, mail-clad, and armed with axes.  They hastened to the eyot and assailed it from both sides.  At the same time Grimbold on the west bank was attacked by Saruman’s forces on that side of the Isen.”~Unfinished Tales. The Battle of the Fords of the Isen

Some argue that this is the distinction Tolkien makes between 'Orc-men' and 'Uruk-hai' that indeed they are different.  However, I think they are just over-analyzing, Tolkien alternates between Orcs and goblins in a few sentences at times.  So, I don't see why I should believe he isn't just alternating the terms here between 'Orc-men' and 'Uruks.'

And in LOTR:
“But there were others that were horrible: man-high, but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed.  Do you know, they reminded me at once of that Southerner at Bree; only he was not to obviously orc-like as most of these were.’

‘I thought of him too,’ said Aragorn.  ‘We had many of these half-orcs to deal with at Helm’s Deep."~Flotsam and Jetsam

So, the argument is.  Orcs, goblins, and Uruk-hai (Uruks) are all of the same breed.  Uruks are the stronger, 'soldier-like' Orc breed.

While 'Man-orcs' or 'Goblin-men' or 'Half-orcs' are Saruman's crossbreed between the two races, and Uruk-hai is not the crossbreed.  And at Helm's Deep, and in Saruman's army, he had both Uruk-hai and the Man-orcs, (as well as Orcs. Dunlanders and such).

It's all up to the readers interpretation, whether they think Uruk-hai can be synonymouse with the crossbreed of Orcs and Men or not.  Personally I think they are synonymous just like Orcs and goblins are, others will disagree.

 

Also, I think (and I can't outright prove this), that it was rather difficult to get the 'bigger and stronger breeds.'  Most of Saruman's force that attacked Helm's Deep was not his crossbreed of Men and Orcs, but regular Orcs, and Dunlanders.  And in Unfinished Tales, the 'Man-Orcs' were only a 'company.'  So, with Saruman he didn't have a lot of his 'Man-Orcs' yet, because it takes time.

Most of Sauron's forces attacking Gondor were Men, not Orcs.  In Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth (a good guidebook to use) she approximates the numbers.  There are some errors in Fonstad's book because she did not have Letters available to her, but it is one of the better Tolkien guides out there, and I've never seen her numbers disputed...of the 45,000 sieging Minas Tirith, 20,000 were Orcs, Trolls, Uruks...etc, the remainder 25,000 were made up of Men...from Khand, Harad, Umbar...etc.  Also, Sauron's force he sent to attack the Dwarves of Erebor was said to be an 'Easterling force.'  I don't know any numbers as far as the remainder of Sauron's army at the Black Gates, but in those two instances the majority of Sauron's army was made up of Men.

I think it is difficult in general to keep a good 'supply' of Orcs, so to say...it wasn't as the movies portrayed where they just spawned and were full-grown out of mud pits.  Whatever your conception of the Orcs origins were from (Men, Elves, rocks...etc) what Tolkien does make clear is Orcs reproduce:

’There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known’~The Munby Letter (Dated Oct. 21 1963)

’For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar’~The Silmarillion: Of the Coming of the Elves

We are led to think too that their Lifespan wasn't all that long:

'They could be slain, and they were subject to disease; but apart from these ills they were not immortal, even according to the manner of the Quendi; indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain'~Home X: Morgoth's Ring

So, Orcs multiply and reproduce like Iluvatar's children (Men and Elves) and they're lives are short compared to other races.  It takes time to build up a substantial force of Orcs and keep their numbers.  Unlike what the movies show you where it seems like Sauron just has an unlimitted supply of Orcs.  Sauron turned a lot to other means in order to win.  He would try to bribe the dwarves instead of having to fight them, then would recruit Men into his army.

I have a quote here that says the Orcs ar NOT Goblins:

"Personally I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins', not even the goblins of George MacDonald, which they do to some extent resemble)."
151 From a letter to Hugh Brogan 18 September 1954

TM wrote:

And just to make it simple.
Orcs = Tolkien's Goblins
Orcs = not MacDonald's Goblins

If Tolkien meant that his Orcs are not the goblins of MacDonald then he would have said:

(since these creatures are not 'goblins' of George MacDonald, which they do to some extent resemble)."

However the way he says it in his proper quote means that 'Orcs' are not Goblins at all, his own and Macdonalds, simple as that.

There is overwhelming support that 'Orcs' and goblins are the exact same.  TM has provided the quote from The Hobbit.  Also, as I had shown with Grishnakh he was called (by Tolkien) a goblin twice, the rest of the times he's referred to as an 'Orc.'

And some further quotes which show the two terms being exchanged, where the two words are being interchanged in the same paragraph:

...and then suddenly they had crashed right into a group of Orcs: they were standing listening, and they did not appear to see Merry and Pippin until they were almost in their arms.  Then they yelled and dozes of other goblins had srpung out of the trees.  Merry and he had drawn their swords, but the Orcs did not wish to fight,...~The Uruk-hai

The quote you use does not disprove the fact that 'Orcs' and 'goblins' are two interchangeable words for the same thing:

"Personally I prefer Orcs (since these creatures are not 'goblins', not even the goblins of George MacDonald, which they do to some extent resemble)."

All Tolkien is saying in this quote is that the typical accepted view of what a 'goblin' is would not fit the description or fit in with his 'Orcs.'  And that's why he prefers the term 'Orcs.'  Because his 'Orcs' were not the world view of 'goblins.'  (And this is what it seems like TM is trying to get across).  He's not saying that in his story 'Orcs' and 'goblins' are different, just that he prefers to call them 'Orcs' (over 'goblins') because the orcs/goblins in his story were not the same as everyone elses.

Even if this is what Tolkien was saying then he would be contradicting himself (which he has done before), because he interchanges the two words many times, and several quotes have been provided to show this.  But, I doubt Tolkien is saying this, because for him to say something like this (in the way you have laid out) would mean Tolkien he would have had to have a total mindlapse of what he wrote throughout The Hobbit and LOTR, which I doubt he simply just forgot that he had interchanged the words many many times.  In Moria alone Orcs was said around 18 times and goblins about 6 if my memory is correct...I'll have to go back and count.

mouth of sauron wrote:

---

Aredhel, by your last point do you mean Orcs are uglier than Goblins or vice versa?

---

Tolkien doesn't really contradict himself, for the simple reason all he says is I prefer Orcs.~TM

Yes, I think I was a bit confusing in my last post.  I was saying if the quote provided by mos was Tolkien saying that Orcs and goblins are different, than Tolkien would have to be contradicting himself, because all throughout LOTR and The Hobbit we can see the words being interchanged.  But, as you have shown, I don't think that's what he's saying, he's just saying his preference to calling them 'Orcs' instead of 'goblins.'

The Might wrote:

---

perhaps only in the movie, because we don't really have so clear descriptions about them so we could actually say which are uglier.

---

you're right about that