I beleive it it said that there were only ever meant to be between 3-7 Balrogs but I cannot find the quote. There was originally meant to be hundreds when Tolkien thought of them as corrupted creatures like the Dragons, but later he made them Maiar so of course the numbers would have to be brought down.
Through my search for this quote I came across an intereting statement by Tolkien -
"The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer." (letters. This quote however is cinfusing as it may be spoken by someone called 'Z'.)
Anyhow assuming it is spoken by Tolkien it would lead to the following contradiction:
"What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible." (lord of the rings)
This was not the exact quote I was looking for but it does say somewhere that the Balrog muttered a counter spell aganist Gandalf spell on the door. How could it do that if it never makes any vocal sounds?
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Now there are very many theories on that matter so here they are, as good as I could find them:
The earliest texts of the mythology show Balrogs in great numbers;
"Melko sent his host of Balrogs after them, and Mablon the Ilkorin died to save them when pursued." BoLT1, Gilfanon's Tale
"Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, ... and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which Melko devised against Gondolin." BoLT2, The Fall of Gondolin
"The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170),* and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: thus five fell before Tuor's great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelion's sword, and two score were slain by the warrior's of the king's house." BoLT2, Commentary by CT on The Fall of Gondolin
This idea of numerous Balrogs was also carried forward through years of new stories and revisions;
"Wherefore each embassy came in far greater force then they had sworn, but Morgoth brought the greater, and they were Balrogs." SoME, The Quenta - 8
"There came afresh a hundred thousand Orcs and a thousand Balrogs, and in the forefront came Glomund the Dragon, and Elves and Men withered before him." SoME, The Earliest Annals of Beleriand - Year 172
"But at length after the fall of Fingolfin, which is told hereafter, Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs." LROW, Quenta Silmarillion - Ch. 11 ~143
"There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glomund the Father of Dragons." LROW, Quenta Silmarillion - Ch. 16 ~15
As we see in all the earliest writings of Tolkien the Balrogs were a host, and it seemed that they were of the number of thousands.
But there is another theory - that there were only few Balrogs. This can be traced to a footnote Christopher included attached to his commentary quoted above from the Second Book of Lost Tales;
"* The idea that Morgoth disposed of a 'host' of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed - 'at most seven'." BoLT2, The Fall of Gondolin
This seemingly direct statement, published in 1984, shaped the common idea that Balrogs were few in number. It was also often assumed that though the idea of many Balrogs had "endured long" it must have been discarded prior to the writing of LotR. In fact, the Balrog hosts persisted even after the completion of The Lord of the Rings. They can still be found in the Grey Annals and Annals of Aman, both of which can be dated to sometime in the 1950s;
"There came wolves, and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs a thousand, and there came worms and drakes, and Glaurung, Father of Dragons." WotJ, The Grey Annals - Year 472 ~230
"It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained..." MR, The Annals of Aman - 1099
What is more, there is a note attached to this Annals of Aman text... which is almost certainly the same passage to which Christopher had referred in BoLT2;
"In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.'" MR, Section 2 (AAm*) - note 50 just before Section 3
So, this then was the 'turning point'. Yet there is no way of knowing whether this idea of a limited number of Balrogs would have been retained. Given the difficulty in precisely dating these texts it is even possible that the Grey Annals reference to 'Balrogs a thousand' post-dated the Annals of Aman note saying there were 'at most seven'. We thus have the possibly unique situation of a widely accepted point of Tolkien lore which is contradicted by every extant narrative writing on the subject, and indeed was only ever found in a single post-LotR marginal note.
And finally, if we count how many Balrogs were killed during the history of ME, we reach a number of about 30. So again, the quote from the Annals of Aman is not confirmed.
So, in the end, the situation looks like this: - in the beginning Tolkien always considered the Balrogs to be of the number of thousands, and this idea he had till sometime in the 50s, after the writing of LotR. -sometime in the 50s he changed his idea writing that they were between 3 and 7 -however his writings all indicate that there were at least 30 balrogs, but that there could have also been thousands. So in the end, I can't really answer your question, it depends on the way you look at it.
oh, glorfindel if it is spoken to someone called Z it means it is one of Tolkien's many critics for the first attempt to film lotr the director of th film is always presented as Z this is one of Tolkien's many many critics, and many can be found in the letters
that is a part of letter #210, which is totally full of many of Tolkien's critics who was angry because of the way the film was done: what is written there is all by Tolkien "The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him." so it is clear in the movie the Balrog spoke. however, Tolkien was angray because in his vision balrogs couldn't speak.
thanks for the detailed reply, it is really interesting... balrogs are very fascinating to me and I always thought that if there were many of them that the army they are in could never be defeated...
and is it said how many of them are remained in the LOTR time?
"The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is – and doubtless Gandalf."
(Letter something or other)
Only one was supposed to have survived out of the 3-7, in the War of wrath at the end of the First age. It fled to Khazad-dum where it stayed thoughout all the second and alot of the third ages for about 5000 years until it was woken by Durin and the Dwarves, and there it killed Durin, father of Dwarves, and thus got its name 'Durin's bane'. Then at the End of the Third age it killed Gandalf, but was also slain in the process.
do you actually think that a counter spell in Me is something like Harry Potter style? no way. a spell does not necessarily mean here spoken words. it means that the balrog used the powers of his spirit against Gandalf, not that he said anything
Aredhel, we are told this: "The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth." LROW, Quenta Silmarillion - Conclusion ~16 few, means more then one, so there were others except Durin's Bane and as to their possible hiding places: "'A Balrog!' said Keleborn. 'Not since the Elder Days have I heard that a Balrog was loose upon the world. Some we have thought are perhaps hidden in Mordor [?or] near the Mountain of Fire, but naught has been seen of them since the Great Battle and the fall of Thangorodrim." ToI, Galadriel
No but it says that the 'Balrog muttered a counter spell'. That counter broke Gandalf's power over the door, hence Gandalf had to speak a Word of command, which therefore broke the door.
no it never says muttered. this is what glorfindel said he believed he read but I re-read that place and I have found no trace of the word muttered until someone can find a quote with the word muttered, I can't agree
"Frodo thought he could hear the voice of Gandalf above, muttering words that ran down the sloping roof with a sighing echo. He could not catch what was said."
this is a quote from the encounter of Gandalf with the Balrog it was Gandalf that was muttering, not the balrog
well, indeed. another matter that Tolkien leaves un-answered and that is highly debatable
now, the main quote that balrogs couldn't speak is already posted a little higher in this thread: "20. The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him." Letter #210
But, indeed, Tolkien was himself incorrect in at least that the Moria Balrog did make a vocal sound:
"With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished." FotR, The Bridge of Khazad-dum
In an earlier draft of this same passage the Balrog makes two sounds;
"With a gasping hiss the Balrog sprang up ... With a terrible cry the troll fell after it, and the Balrog [?tumbled] sideways with a yell and fell into the chasm." ToI, The Bridge
Other quotes that balrogs could speak: "Then leapt Ecthelion lord of the Fountain, fairest of the Noldoli, full at Gothmog even as he raised his whip, and his helm that had a spike upon it he drave into that evil breast, and he twined his legs about his foeman's thighs; and the Balrog yelled and fell forward..."
"Then Glorfindel's left hand sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature); and it shrieked..." BoLT2, The Fall of Gondolin
We even see Balrogs laughing in an early text;
"Then the Lord of Hell lying-hearted to where Hurin hung hastened swiftly, and the Balrogs about him brazen-handed with flails of flame and forged iron there laughed as they looked on his lonely woe;" LoB, The Lay of the Children of Hurin (second version)
Now about the counter-spell "'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command." FotR, The Bridge of Khazad-dum
The idea is that in ME spells are very often spoken aloud. But that does not mean that they necessarily spoke them.
Another point is that of balrogs giving orders: "But now Gothmog lord of Balrogs, captain of the hosts of Melko, took counsel and gathered all his things of iron that could coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them. These he bade pile themselves before the northern gate..."
"Then Gothmog Lord of Balrogs gathered all his demons that were about the city and ordered them thus..." BoLT2, The Fall of Gondolin
Again, it seems here that the balrogs did speak as they gave orders to some other minions. But, as we know they were spirits of fire with great powers we can think they might have done this telepathically, or by influecing the wills of the others. Sauron, for example used such methods.
Finally, in one passage Gothmog's name is translated as 'Voice of the Master', which might imply that Gothmog himself must have had a voice to thus speak for Morgoth;
"Gothmog '= Voice of Goth (Morgoth), an Orc-name.' Morgoth is explained at its place in the list as 'formed from his Orc-name Goth 'Lord or Master'..." LROW, Appendix II - The List of Names
But this quote is from a very early text, and the meaning of this nmae was later changed to Dread Tyrant.
so in the end this is what we know: -Tolkien was wrong about this as he contradicted himself -the balrog in Moria did make sounds just as other balrogs during the First Age -the problem if they spoke or not is still an open one, but it seems it was possible
Well I suppose ytou could make allounces for some of those.
The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him." Letter #210
If you screech in pain it is not something that you can control, although it is a vocal sound. Now perhaps Tolkien meant that the never voluntarily make any sound hence that they do not laugh (for when you laugh it is voluntarily).
As for Gothmog giving orders it could either be thoruhg another or through telepathy as you say.
As for the following quote:
"Then the Lord of Hell lying-hearted to where Hurin hung hastened swiftly, and the Balrogs about him brazen-handed with flails of flame and forged iron there laughed as they looked on his lonely woe;" LoB, The Lay of the Children of Hurin (second version)
I beleive that is either very old, from an inaccurate source, or is simply a contradiction of Tolkien qords in the first qwuote. I do however favour one of the former.
you know, rather then saying all those quotes can be interpreted I would say Tolkien was wrong think of the state he wrote the letter in: he was very angry because Zimmerman treated the books superficially, andi f you read the letter you can see how unhappy Tolkien was perhaps in this state he didn't pay so much attention to what he wrote.
easy? I personally have no problem if Tolkien was wrong with this anyone makes mistakes, even he does. and I don't think you can't really explain that he says no vocal sounds at all, willingly or unwillingly. and the balrogs laugh, cry, and many others they don't necessarily speak, but they do make sounds it seems
"The Balrog never speaks or makes any vocal sound at all. Above all he does not laugh or sneer. .... Z may think that he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him." Letter #210
To me this could mean that it was 'mr Z' who said this and the end part was Tolkien disagreeing?
Letter 210 is a letter Tolkien wrote regarding Zimmerman's screenplay that he wrote. Tolkien was not happy with it and he criticized it on many occasions. One of them being the Balrog. The quote being referred is Tolkien saying that Durin's Bane never speaks or makes any sort of noise (like roaring, gargle...etc). However, this is not talking about all Balrogs, and just because Durin's Bane did not speak, does not mean it couldn't.
Notice it says "The Balrog"- Meaning one, and the one Gandalf fought..."never speaks." Doesn't say that he couldn't speak it said that he just never does. Balrogs indeed could speak:
But now Gothmog lord of Balrogs, captain of the hosts of Melko, took counsel and gathered all his things of iron that could coil themselves and above all of the obstacles before them.~Bolt II
Then Gothmog Lord of Balrogs gathered all his demons that were about in the city and ordered them thus: a number made for the folk of the Hammer and gave before them, but the greater company rushing upon the flank to get to their backs, higher upon the coils of the drakes that and nearer to the gates, so that Rog might not win back save with great slaughter among his folk.~ibid
Letter 210 is strictly referring to Durin's Bane, not the other balrogs. Plus, just because it never spoke doesn't mean that he couldn't.
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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
but still, Boromir88, Tolkien still contradicts himself even though he mabye only talked about Durin's Bane, still, no vocal sounds is not the same in the book as I showed, Durin's Bane can and also does make vocal sounds
and also Tolkien seems not to hav changed his mind early. As we can see in all more early works and also in all early and later drafts of lotr, tolkien had always the same opinion-though never clearly stated the balrogs always made different sounds and could mabye also speak so clearly his intention was this the only time he ever clearly stated his position, however, he did it totally opposite but still, I think it was a writing mistake actually it would be interesting to learn if in the movie version Balrogs made noises if maybe in Zimmerman's script the balrog didn't make any sound, perhaps Tolkien meant the opposite, but by mistake wrote the Balrog didn't do that or maybe it was a sudden change of mind
In an earlier draft of this same passage the Balrog makes two sounds; "With a gasping hiss the Balrog sprang up...
Tolkien was a creative man, and these things are not always as they seem, and as is often the case with the riddles that spring from his works the solution if often plainly simple.
Could it be that these are not vocal noises, yet still noises Durin's Bane makes. Get your lighter out and wave it past your ear, you'll hear the flame hiss through the air?
Perhaps Tolkien mean 'The Balrog never makes any voluntary vocal sound'.
Therefore if the Balrogs makes a noice becuase he has fallen, or gasps as he jumps and his own weight leads him to do so, perhaps then these would be classed as involuntary as they are reflex sounds.
Book of Lost Tales and I guess you know this, but anyway, I'll add that this is a part of HOME. So the first 2 books in the HOME series are called Book of Lost Tales 1 and Book of Lost Tales. That is why also BoLT1 or BoLT2 are abreviations you might find
I don't see the point of holding on to an argument like this. If Tolkien changed his thoughts on the amount of Balrogs, then it is the fault of his son for publishing conflicting accounts in the post-humous books.
The quote from Tolkien regarding 3-7 balrogs is in direct conflict to the various other accounts throughout his work. Such a small number of balrogs makes the accounts of Morgoth fleeing from Ungoliant, Feanor's death, and the Fall of Gondolin seem far less epic and takes away from the imagery of the stories.
There were a few minor contradictions in the body of his work and they should be overlooked, rather than the subject of debate that cannot and should not be 'proven'. We should all keep in mind that Middle-Earth is a mythical world.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
Celethil, it does contradict Tolkien's earliest thoughts on Balrogs, but Tolkien made clear that from his earliest drafts in Book of Lost Tales to the final 'version' of them, that they were different.
In BoLT Balrogs were originally an entire race of their own, with their own seperate language, their own seperate custom...etc. Being an entire race, they were of course thousands and thousands of them, and they were weaker compared to the final version of Balrogs.
The 3-7 number contradicts Book of Lost Tales, but none of other Tolkien's published works. As by the time the Lord of the Ring's had come around Tolkien had altered his view of Balrogs. He made them now Maiar, much stronger than they were before, and he lessened their amount.
I don't see how the change in number conflicts with anything in The Silmarillion. The Silmarillion is in concordance with Tolkien's final beliefs that Balrogs were Maiar that were drawn into Morgoth's service in the beginning...not that they were a race of their own which were in Tolkien's very earliest drafts.
I also wouldn't be so hard on Christopher. Christopher put together and let out books like Book of Lost Tales, and the early Tolkien drafts, for anyone who was like himself and had an interest in seeing his father's earliest works and seeing how they developed later. These were not put out to the public to create conflict with anything (or to hold any canonical weight). But, for anyone else who had a curiosity about his father's earliest thoughts like he did.
-- Edited by Lord Lórien at 21:12, 2006-08-27
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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
Lord Lorien- Actually I was not so concerned with the account in BoLT. That made as little sense as the 3-7 number.
That small number of Balrogs definitely conflicts with the stories in the Silmarillion, if not from an empirical standpoint, at least when compared to Tolkien's style, it does. The very fact that there is a range of 3-7 seems VERY odd. If that number were correct, I believe the Silmarillion would have been published in a very different manner by JRR himself, but it wasn't. If there were so few Balrogs, then I am sure that Tolkien would have provided their names in the narrative or specifically mentioned the exact number of them.
I am not arguing the the small number of Balrogs was not the intent of Tolkien, but it is not what was published.
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Therefore I say that we will go on, and this doom I add: the deeds that we shall do shall be the matter of song until the last days of Arda
well, again, we will unfortunately never know what he meant to do in the end, but we know what he might have done...still too bad that there is still so much uncertainty... but I think CT did a good job to publish his fathers thoughts on different topics. Still it is always important to think that as unpublished works these documents aren't that reliable as published work.
I really don't see how it conflicts with anything in the Silmarillion. Tolkien started out with thousands of Balrogs as a race of their own. And clearly by the time he gets to LOTR and the Silmarillion, he has changed his Balrogs from being a race (thousands) to being Maiar (several) that were pulled over to Morgoth's allegiance.
If there were so few Balrogs, then I am sure that Tolkien would have provided their names in the narrative or specifically mentioned the exact number of them.
I'm not so sure about that, why would he feel a need to name them all? He didn't name all the Nazgul, the only one that he ever gave a name to was Khamul the Easterling. And why would he specifically mention an exact number? We have 3 accounts where we know a Balrog definitely died (Durin's Bane, Gothmog, and the Balrog Glorfindel slew), so there can't be any less than three. And if there were any Balrogs left the rest died in the War of the Wrath. Since, Tolkien greatly increased their power (by making them Maiar) he wasn't comfortable with having thousands of Maiar running around on the battlefield, so he deemed at most 7 would be a reasonable number.
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I am Lórien, Lord of Dreams, my true name is 'Irmo' in Quenya.
I agree with your last post Lord Lorien. I think that Tolkien tried to transform the Nazgul into something like the Nazgul for Sauron - the most powerful servants that are sent into battle when need is most dire And also, by increasing their power, I think he wanted to create opponents worthy to fight the great heroes of the First Age, whether Men or Elves. and once again, the example of the Nazgul given by Lord Lorien perfectly fits the example of the Balrogs remember Celethil, the Silmarillion should be a book made out of the things the Elves knew about the First Age, and I doubt that they knew so much about the Balrogs. The only named Balrog is Gothmog, and that is probably because of his position as greatest of the Balrogs.
