Tolkien Forums

‘I think it is a sad story,’ said the wizard, ‘and it might have happened to others, even to some hobbits that I have known.’

 

There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things.

 

Certainly he had never “faded”. He is thin and tough still. But the thing was eating up his mind, of course, and the torment had become almost unbearable.

 

‘Pity? It was Pity that stayed his hand. Pity, and Mercy: not to strike without need. And he has been well rewarded, Frodo. Be sure that he took so little hurt from the evil, and escaped in the end, because he began his ownership of the Ring so. With Pity.’

‘I am sorry,’ said Frodo. ‘But I am frightened; and I do not feel any pity for Gollum.’

‘You have not seen him,’ Gandalf broke in.

‘No, and I don’t want to,’ said Frodo. I can’t understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.’

‘Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. I have not much hope that Gollum can be cured before he dies, but there is a chance of it."

(All quotes from lord of the Rings, The fellowship)

 

He is not an evil creature and according to Gandalf he is to be pitied. His actions, though they may seem evil are just the Ring corrupting his mind. You say that he killed Deagol. This was also becuase the Ring had driven him to do so for desire of it.

he wasn't evil...just very vulnerable to such a thing.
we know how much hobbits like to get presents, especially on their birthdays.
but Smeagol was even worse.
we are told he always was looking around for hidden treasures so the Ring was a huge attraction for him, anyway.
if you add the fact it was the One Ring it isn't hard to imagine why he killed Deagol.

Well, in my humble opinion, every one has different sides to them "Evil" (quote unquote) is miost certaintly one of them. So yes, in a way Smeagol was evil, but then so are we all. The ring could have implanted it's seeds anywhere. Frodo, one of the purist characters in the book (so I think) was even effected briefly by the ring. He never showed any signs of "evilness" before, not really. Mischeivious, perhaps, but not evil doing. Still, he was effected.
Just the phrase "The one ring" should have brought around the end of the discussion.

Smeagol did not have to touch the Ring to be corrupted by it. The Ring can 'Call' to soemone I believe and can make them want it without having to have Phisical contact. What about Boromir, he did not have contact with the ring but it drove him mad.

I see Smeagol as a "parted" creature. He has two sides, a good one, Smeagol, and a bad one, Gollum. So I don't think that Smeagol was evil, he just was too weak to resist Gollum and couldn't do anything against Gollum's actions.

On the other hand, I don't quite know who of them has killed Deagol, was it Smeagol or already Gollum?

Okay, I wasn't sure about that. I did pretend that it was already Gollum, but I was questioning myself, how the ring could have so quickly power over him!

I think your wrong The Might.

If you re-read some posts you would see that 'Gollum' has been used to signify the side that the Ring was corrupting.

I think you don't know what we are actually using the word 'Gollum' for The Might. We are not refering to the Gurgles in his throat later on but his new corrupted side that was being Kindled. I know that side is not called Gollum yet, but there is no reason not to use it.

We only use Gollum to represent Smeagols dark side - whether thats right or not we just use it becuase there's naught else, unless you'd rather we use 'Stinker'?

THE MIGHT!!! - Re-read my last post! We are not saying that gollum was the name for Smeagols dark side - we are just using it for that purpose.

I refuse to keep posting the name 'Stinker' here! I will call the Dark side Gollum and the good side Smeagol whether right or not and I think the majority who participate will do the same.

Well in a way you could think of Gollum as a name for Smeagols dark side.

The only reason Smeagol started Gurgling 'Gollum' was becuase of the corruption of the Ring. Therefore 'Gollum' originated from Smeagol by means of the Evil power of the Ring. So Gollum only came about becuase of the Dark side the Ring was impressing upon Smeagol. So in a way you could say Gollum was a name for Smeagol's dark side although Tolkien did not say this.

Agreed.

Still ... murder casts a giant shadow ... what about Deagol and Smeagol's grandmother?

The Ring is a powerful force that even Frodo falls too.  And Gandalf and Galadriel wouldn't even touch it!

Good observation PLLovechild!

And nice to see you posting.

Hope we see more of you!

Bear

But by that time Gollum had already endured centuries of the One Ring. Is it reasonable to say that there is a case to be made for drastically diminished responsibility?

Diminished? But not in capacity or motivation!  This critter is evil, ring or not ... he had the opportunity for redemption and choose lust instead.

He was cast into a fiery inferno by his own actions.

What Anorlas brings up of "Inherent small minded meanness" reminds me of another certain Hobbit: Bill Ferny of Bree Village. It could be guessed that his "small minded meanness" was due to greed and lust for power in his own measure. Had someone like Bill Ferny had possession of the Ring I think his fate would have been the same as Gollum. Or because he was outwardly greedy, maybe he would of tried to ascend to power early on drawing Sauron's attention sooner than the sneak and recluse that Smeagol was...just a thought. Smeagol was a sad and mean creature which was a seedling that the Ring caused to sprout and flourish in the dark places of the world that became too big for the small minded creature to control and thus was born Smeagol's duality. The slinker and The stinker..

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-- Edited by concer on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 07:07:05 AM

-- Edited by concer on Wednesday 30th of November 2011 07:07:52 AM